Wade Garrett Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I'd like to know what PWO thinks of this match-up. Use any criteria you see fit to justify your selection. I'm really curious in regards to who y'all feel is better in terms of career output in-ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Right now my answer is Bret. However, I have a lot of Cena viewing gaps to fill in, and if he works like I think he can during those gaps he will have a much longer period of sustained greatness than Bret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I would easily say Cena. He became a great worker through sheer will, while I think Bret had more natural talent. Cena has been placed in far more unique situations on top than Bret was and has usually found a way to make the best of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I can see that. I'm not a fan of Hart. I can't stand the guy. I don't mean that personally because I don't know him. I just don't like the guy. I could stomach him more as a heel because that's what he was best at in my opinion. He has an arrogance about him and came across better as an asshole because of the arrogance I feel he excudes. With that said. The guy was a damn good pro wrestler and I can't ignore that. As for Cena. I had a really hard time getting into him overall right up until his second match vs. Rock. For the first time in my life I found myself rooting for Cena to literally kick the Rocks ass. I wanted Cena to make him bleed, sweat, and pay the price. Something in that second go around triggered me for the first time in his career to root for Cena. I had enjoyed a handful of his matches but something kicked in after that second go with Rock. I have to explore early Cena at this point and revisit (90's WWF crap) Hart. I'm lookin forward to Cena stuff more then Hart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Cena, and its not even close for me. Ask me in 1997 and its possible I'd have a different answer, but rewatching Bret on the yearbooks & network has not made a strong case for him here. I think Cena also has a vastly more diverse body of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Bret has his usual suspect great matches and performances and some outside of that, but not too many. TV obviously isn't a fair comparison, but I do think comparing Cena's TV to Bret's Coliseum Video and handhelds is a fair comparison, and Cena has the edge there. Cena doesn't have a masterpiece performance like the double turn with Austin at Wrestlemania XIII, but he has become a tremendous wrestler by attrition, and there's something really cool about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Bret without hesitation, my hatred of WWE Main Event style is that strong. I Loved Cena vs Brock though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Have you seen the Cena matches with CM Punk at MITB 2011 and with Daniel Bryan at Summerslam 2013? I think those would be up your alley, especially the latter. The closest we're going to get now to an old school NWA title match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I watched and reviewed one CM Punk vs Cena match which I thought was disappointing relative to the hype around it, see here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20910-jaaawn-cena/?p=5656302 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Confusingly, there is a second Cena microscope thread here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/19220-john-cena/page-3&do=findComment&comment=5639633 Can we merge them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Won't comparing Cena to Hart though get lost if they're merged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 We can keep it as it is for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 No I mean there are currently two other threads focusing on Cena. One just called "John Cena" the other one called Jawwwn Cena. Me and OJ are posting reviews in both of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Just thinking off the top of my head, Cena's best matches and volume just overwhelms Bret. Someone should break down the Bret vs Austin feud against Cena vs Brock Then do Bret vs Owen against Cena vs Punk. I guess a super Bret fan might like Bret vs Davey Boy more than Bryan vs Cena but it would take a lot of convincing. I think Bryan vs Cena is a strong contender for best WWE match ever. Cena vs Umaga is better than any Bret vs Monster match. Cena vs Rey and Bret vs 123 Kid from Raw are pretty lateral. I can see ranking either one above the other. I think Cena's matches vs old down Shawn are better than Bret's matches vs in his prime Shawn. Cena vs Khali is a more impressive carry job than Bret vs Nash. Etc etc etc. Bret's not exactly known as a model of consistency with a ton of forgotten house show and tv matches. He was very much a big show performer. So we're really looking at the best matches of Bret's career. I think Cena stacks up surprisingly well as far as peak performances AND has more meat to his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I know of the other threads. I just thought the current trend of ? vs. ? being this is Cena vs. Hart would generate some solid discussion/opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Cena/Lesnar and Hart/Austin are interesting comparisons. I like the Hart/Austin WM13 match a lot. I also enjoy the SS96 match. Hart/Austin was presented as a pro wrestling feud and done very well. Hart/Austin is my #1 WWF match of the 90's. It's also my #1 WM match of all-time up until Lesnar/Reigns. I think. Definitely my favorite. Cena/Lesnar almost crosses into more of a big fight feel to me as opposed to a pro wrestling feud and I think I enjoy it more because of that. If that makes any sense. Cena/Lesnar is my #1 match of the 10's. Austin and Lesnar are my two favorite pro wrestlers over nearly the last 20yrs so it's interesting to look at both those feuds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I'm in the same boat as Jerry in that I thoroughly despise the modern WWE main event style. I just can't get over how blatantly choreographed it is. When I watch a typical Cena match, it's abundantly clear to me that I'm watching a performance where all the spots are laid out in advance, and it destroys my suspension of disbelief. It takes a truly special worker to be able to rise above the constraints of the style and make things seem organic, and beyond a handful of exceptions, Cena hasn't been been up to the task. There's also the question of how responsible Cena is for the content of his matches. He's a system quarterback whose only real responsibility is executing the spots that have been laid out for him beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 One problem with Cena that I have is that 70% of his offense is finisher spam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Well that's just patently untrue unless Cena vs Rock II is 100% of your sample size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentin Skinner Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'm going to have to say Cena on this one. I would easily say Cena. He became a great worker through sheer will, while I think Bret had more natural talent. Cena has been placed in far more unique situations on top than Bret was and has usually found a way to make the best of it. Exactly one of the points I planned on making. While wrestling came more naturally for Bret, seeing how Cena has developed over the last decade in to a great performer is admirable. In comparing versatility, I think Cena has shown that he's able to work better with a more eclectic group of guys than Bret was. Bret is an all-time great in his department, but I struggle finding matches where he shines even when he's out of his comfort zone. When comparing their "greatest matches", Cena has that category in my opinion, but to be fair I haven't watched Bret in a LONG time. If we could compile a definitive 10 best matches list for each guy, the comparison would work much better. I have to go rewatch Bret's greatest hits to see how they measure up to Cena's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'm in the same boat as Jerry in that I thoroughly despise the modern WWE main event style. I just can't get over how blatantly choreographed it is. When I watch a typical Cena match, it's abundantly clear to me that I'm watching a performance where all the spots are laid out in advance, and it destroys my suspension of disbelief. It takes a truly special worker to be able to rise above the constraints of the style and make things seem organic, and beyond a handful of exceptions, Cena hasn't been been up to the task. There's also the question of how responsible Cena is for the content of his matches. He's a system quarterback whose only real responsibility is executing the spots that have been laid out for him beforehand. This. And I do enjoy Cena more than any other 00's WWE manufactured big match worker, Lesnar expected (but he's a special case). And really, there are some other issues like execution (sorry, but it does matter). To get back to that Owens match (which I liked quite a bit before the overlong finishing stretch), finisher kickouts spamming does not a great match (or work) make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I edited this into a poll. Vote away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'd go with Bret. I don't think he was that naturally talented, to be honest, and also worked his way up through the business getting better as he went along, but mostly I struggle with the notion that Cena is a great worker. Even if you argue about his volume of work, he's working at a time when it's easier than ever to put a body of work together. Bret was trying to do the fighting champion gimmick in the early 90s with a vastly inferior roster. If he was around today, I have no doubt he'd make the most of the environment and have a Bryan-esque body of work. In fact, he'd probably shine in the modern environment with its focus on clever spots and continuous moments to a match since he was one of the first guys to add more nuanced spots to the WWF house style like the corner post figure four and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'd rather see prime Bret vs Brock or Owens than prime Cena vs 96/7 Austin or 91/93 Hennig. That's not an answer though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 When people talk about something like Cena vs Owens as "finisher spam"...what exactly is your definition of a finisher? A lot of big moves were hit in the match. Not a lot of finishers though. Cena's finishers are the AA and STF. Owens kicked out of one AA and escaped the STF once. Owens' finisher is the powerbomb. Cena kicked out of one and then lost clean to the second. There were no other finishers hit or spammed or kicked out of in the match. I mean if you have a philosophical problem with ANY finishers being kicked out of, then that's fair enough. But one each is pretty typical in modern WWE for a big match. And when I hear things like "70% of his offense" and "finisher spamming", I think of things like that Angle/Hardy match where they hit like 17 finishers in a single match. Or at least to keep it on topic, something like Cena/Rock II where they hit a lot of finishers. Not Cena/Owens. As an aside, if anything, if Cena and Owens managed to make kicking out of random, non-finishing moves look like epic finisher kickouts, then that's a testament to how "big" they made the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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