Sidebottom Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Let's have a discussion about these two gimmick matches and what you prefer. I'll accept any cage variation, i.e. War Games, Elimination Chamber, Hell in the Cell and any ladder match variation, i.e. TLC, etc. Which do you prefer? Which do you think has more variation? Which has played host to better matches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Ladder matches -- be they straight, MITB, TLC, etc. when done well often are often spectacular the first go round and even more so before they were run into the ground. They don't hold up nearly as well because they're usually stunt shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I hate ladder matches with a passion. Why is there a ladder in the ring? It's stupid. A ladder doesn't belong in a wrestling ring. A cage match makes sense to me conceptually but a ladder match is fundamentally wrong. And falls count anywhere matches; god I loath falls count anywhere matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 If this had a poll I'd expect a 50+ to less than 10 curb stomp victory for cage matches in the votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Ladder matches are the worst every time. I would die happy never seeing another one. Escape the ring cage matches aren't much better, to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 While I'm not gonna say ladder matches are the worst every time, the average cage match is much better that the average ladder match. And the WWE's clusterf**k ladder matches with 8 people only serve to hurt the case for ladder matches But the question is, which category does the Dixieland match go into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Cage matches are more flexible as a gimmick. You can put anyone in a cage and work a good match in different ways. You can brutalize each other and have a bloody violent match. You can do some highspots off of the cage. Or you can work a really dramatic escape from the cage type of match with no highspots or blood. Ladder matches tend to all end up the same. You also have the baggage of people expecting something crazy to happen. I think the spots are much more contrived in a ladder match. The slow ladder climb is just annoying. You also can't throw any work you want into a ladder match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 "Escape the cage" is essentially the same thing as "grab the belt". I think the best example of both types of match happened in WWF in 1994 with no blood. But a bloody cage match is really the best way to blow off a feud. It's the third and final act in pro wrestling. Hell in a Cell is really cool. Way overdone though. I tend to prefer ladder matches that function more as "object on a pole" matches, like the Stairway to Hell in ECW, or even the early incarnations of the ladder match in Stampede, where there would just be a bag of money hanging above the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 The modern WWE has pretty much killed my enjoyment of ladder matches. I even have a hard time watching older ones that I used to really enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 If this had a poll I'd expect a 50+ to less than 10 curb stomp victory for cage matches in the votes. Unlike your false polling though, I don't think people think it is that close, at least those that say cage. But yeah, easily cage. They can get REAL stupid but they also have far greater potential to be great. There are more available routes to take the bout. I don't remember the last time a ladder match got going and wasn't a car crash for better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Would always be the cage for me. The ultimate location to settle the score. Cant think of too many ladder matches I would want to got back to after the initial viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Which category does the triple decker cage of doom fit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Crap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheU_2001 Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 I have to go with cage matches. I'm more a fan of classic cage matches than ladder matches. I also love war games, I enjoy the Thunderdome match from Havoc '89, love and miss the old blue bar cage from WWE, and just in general prefer cage matches. I also like most Hell in a Cell matches, especially the older ones, but the latest one with Leanar vs Taker was excellent and had blood. I'd go probably ****1/2 on that one. I'm not saying I don't like ladder matches, I usually enjoy them, but the concept has been run into the ground recently. I have witnessed two classic ladder matches live though, that I do truly love: TLC from WrestleMania X-7 was a blast live, and watching again on DVD and the network years later it still holds up well. I also got to see Shawn vs Jericho from No Mercy 2008 live and loved that one too, and it won the WON match of the year that year. Other favorite ladder matches would be Shawn vs Razor at WM X and Summer Slam 1995 and maybe Rock vs HHH, which I haven't seen in a long time. WM 2000 (XVI) also has a good ladder match. I still prefer cage matches though overall. War Games 1 is one of my all time favorite matches, as is War Games 2, 1991, and 1992. Hogan vs Bossman, Bret vs Owen, Flair vs Luger (Capital Combat), Flair vs Race, Flair vs Garvin (both of them), Shawn vs Taker, Armageddon HIAC, HHH vs Cactus HIAC, Lesnar vs Taker HIAC, RnR vs Andersons, RnR vs Koloffs, Thunderdome from Havoc '89, Warrior vs Rude even from Summer Slam 1990 is pretty good. All the previously mentioned cage matches are some of my favorites to be sure. So in this argument, gotta go with cage matches over ladder matches. They hold up better, and the concept has not been driven into the ground, and usually they make for good blowoffs to a feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Russian Daydream Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Overall, I have to go with the majority and say I prefer cage matches but that's not to say that there haven't been some brilliant ladder matches or, indeed, terrible cage matches. The thing that puts me off ladder matches are the really slow climb spots and the blatant setting up of ladders for a spot. You just want to win the match, so why not just lamp the guy repeatedly with the ladder and get on with it? Is very rare that a ladder match has that 'two guys having a fight' feel that I like my wrestling to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I agree that you can do more different things with a cage than you can do with a ladder, for several reasons. One is a literal matter of space: once you've dragged a big ol' ladder into the ring, it's difficult in a spatial sense to do any spots which don't involve it. If you tried to do something as simple as an Irish whip or a vertical suplex, the ladder is almost inevitably in the way. In comparison, all a cage removes from a wrestler's bag of movez is simply getting out of the ring in a casual manner. And if you're in a Hell In A Cell match, you're not missing even that much; aside from crowd brawling, you can do pretty much every single thing you can do in a normal match, plus using the cage. But I still think ladder matches in general have been rather severely underrated in this thread. Yeah, slow climbing sucks and too many of those Money In The Bank matches tend to look alike; but that's a problem with intellectual laziness on the part of the individual workers in the individual matches, not so much a problem with the gimmick itself. The live audience inevitably LOVES these matches, it's hard to remember many examples of a crowd shitting on a ladder spotfest. And it doesn't even necessarily have to be a "spotfest", remember how Miz/Lawler did a much more old-school Bret/Shawn type of contest and it got over like gangbusters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Has there ever been a ladder match where the match strategy was to disable someone's legs via extensive matwork before introducing the ladder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I'm with Daniel: I hate ladder matches in general. There have been plenty of shitty cage matches, but a good cage match can be pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Has there ever been a ladder match where the match strategy was to disable someone's legs via extensive matwork before introducing the ladder?Yep. Scott Hall vs. Goldberg, Souled Out '99. It sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted October 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I love that match! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Nothing tops a cage match (Cyclone Fence Cage, either around the ring or Cell style) with pin / submission rules. Its the ultimate feud ended, the place to go to finalize a war and find out who truly is the better man. No one comes in, no one gets out, just a fight to see who's the best. So to me, Cage matches are far superior to ladder matches.4 Escape rules cage matches arent nearly as good in my opinion but are still decent and better than modern ladder matches as you still have the cage fight. But I think the idea of beating your opponent until they arent able to stop you from leaving is a lost science in these. For years now, there have been too many of escape rules matches where the loser isnt beat up and defeated, but got kicked off or kicked his opponent out the door for a victory, leaving the loser just having bad luck and standing in the ring angry, and not beaten down, unable to continue. That is the way I'd like to see escape rules matches, both guys spent and beaten and one has just a little more than the other to get out, or the other scenario where revenge is taken and the winner (who had been attacked / beaten / cost something) gets his revenge in convincing fashion leaving his opponent down and out while he steps out of the ring victorious.... I think ladder matches could be done really well, but have become spot fests now, and the slow climbs and sometimes waiting for the other guy to catch you takes my enjoyment away from the match itself and I find myself trying HARD not to see how bad it looks when that happens. Older ladder matches are still really good (Mania X / Summerslam 98 / others) where the ladder wasnt used as a diving board, but more as just a weapon when needed in the middle of a fight and then used to climb and get the title. But even those suffer from some of the waiting moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I do think the escape-to-win matches have one small but important advantage over pinfall cage matches: no referee. It's a subtle but powerful visual statement, when the wrestlers are beating the crap out of each other and using normally-illegal tactics but there's no ref in sight and nobody's trying to break it up. It's sort of a Thunderdome "two men enter, one man leaves" atmosphere of anarchy and chaos, one which suggests that any damn thing could happen. Of course what sadly DOES happen is usually spending half the match on spots where one guy's trying to crawl out the door while the other guy is grabbing onto his boot; but still, that image of two isolated warriors with nary a representative of law or order anywhere near them is one hell of a subconscious thrill. And of course ladder matches have the same asset. There's also something to be said for the "climbing to triumph" metaphor, fighting to ascend and become the newly crowned king of a steel mountain. I love that match!Of course someone would. But I thought it stunk. The feeling-out-process goes on forever; they circle, circle circle, lock up, do one move, aaaand... both of them back off and return to circling; repeat for five minutes straight. It's the exact same bullshit which made the Goldberg/Lesnar match such a tentative bore which never got out of first gear. Goldberg does his usual mutant-healing-factor selling where he never stays down longer than half a second; which is fine in his usual squashes, but is terrible for a match where he's supposed to be selling a knee injury and getting hit with a ladder but then immediately trying to stand back up again. Finally at the end, when they get to the taser (it's basically a taser-on-a-pole match, except with a ladder instead of a pole) they tease it tease it tease it tease it teeeeease it for minutes (and not GOOD teasing, but "time stands still while two guys just sit there staring at each other" teasing)... and then Goldberg uses it a grand total of one time, in a taser shot lasting literally less than a second. Then, in a "the business flashes its junk at you" level of exposure, the camera cuts to the entryway a brief moment BEFORE Bam Bam Bigelow comes out for the run in. Afterwards, the heels beat down Goldberg and Hall shocks him over and over again with the taser. Bravo, that was Goldberg's big fuckin' "revenge" for being screwed out of the title, what a goddamned hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I'm thoroughly surprised that more promotions haven't copied (stolen) Hybrid Wrestling's "Reservoir Dogs" style ladder match. Four men, four different colored ladders, and you could only use your ladder to climb and grab the title. It allowed some psychology to get worked into the otherwise spotfest as they started trying to destroy each other's ladders to prevent them from being of any use. My vote goes to cage but only on technicality. I've seen more great cage matches than I have truly great ladder matches, but I've seen more terrible cage matches than I have truly terrible ladder matches, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Does saying "modern cage vs. modern ladder" change the discussion for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I do think the escape-to-win matches have one small but important advantage over pinfall cage matches: no referee. It's a subtle but powerful visual statement, when the wrestlers are beating the crap out of each other and using normally-illegal tactics but there's no ref in sight and nobody's trying to break it up. It's sort of a Thunderdome "two men enter, one man leaves" atmosphere of anarchy and chaos, one which suggests that any damn thing could happen. Of course what sadly DOES happen is usually spending half the match on spots where one guy's trying to crawl out the door while the other guy is grabbing onto his boot; but still, that image of two isolated warriors with nary a representative of law or order anywhere near them is one hell of a subconscious thrill. Ugh, the your mentioning the referee immediately took me to the Starrcade 83 cage match and Kiniski being ALL OVER the match and completely ruining it. And I agree when the refs get too involved, it can ruin things, as its a cage match...ANYTHING GOES...why is the ref even breaking holds? But the cage matches where the ref does his job right are the best to me, with the pin / submission stipulation. As for the escape the cage rules, I get the heel trying to run out or dive out while the face hangs on trying to drag him in, but I dont get the face doing the same thing mid-match. The face is in there to get his revenge on the heel most times, to settle up on something done to them. They shoudnt want to crawl out just getting out of the heels grasp, they should be kicking the shit out of the heel until he's beaten down and cant come back, before leaving victorious. At least that should be the face's goal. If during the battle, both men are beaten down and the face crawls out as both men are completely spent, then I get it. But watching a face leave the cage as the heel is diving at them or trying to beat them to the door as they climb over the cage kind of kills the story. Does saying "modern cage vs. modern ladder" change the discussion for you? What do you consider modern in terms of years? I cant commment too much post 2009 as I haven'treally watched to much stuff post then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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