The new wrestling economy

[Loss]

Dave has made an interesting point about the current wrestling economy a few times lately that I think warrants more discussion. I'll quote a recent post of his at The Board:

 

 

It's not just the sellouts, the secondary market for SummerSlam was through the roof. People were willing and did pay $400+ for tickets. that's exactly what a hot product is, when people are paying hundreds of dollars for tickets. Even NXT & Raw ticket demands were far higher than at any time pretty much ever that we can chart stuff like that, average secondary market ticket was like $150 to $200. The very idea a secondary brand with no actual TV can sellout for a show they themselves projected to do 6,000 paid is a sign of something.

 

People willing to pay 4x market price for tickets is a pretty good sign something is hot. More coverage. Ratings are disappointing for sure, but they're up from most of the summer. There is less mainstream interest than ever, but among those interested, they are more willing to spend money, ridiculous amounts of money, than at any time in history.

 

 

And that's the wrestling economy today, expanding the fan base is secondary to getting the existing fan base to spend more because it may be impossible to expand the fan base that much based on a number of factors, including a lack of "importance" to the product and the idea it is a presentation rather than an important community event. That goes for every wrestling company in the world today.

 

 

New Japan has tripled business over the last 4 years and they couldn't sell out a smaller building event twice for its No. 2 event of the year.

 

 

Comparing it to 1999 is ridiculous. It may never get there and certainly won't without a guy like a Steve Austin or a Bruno Sammartino or a Hulk Hogan, and they aren't any good at making them and the fan base is very different when it comes to accepting them.

 

Seems like this is going to be more and more the case for the foreseeable future. Cord cutting hasn't gained a ton of momentum just yet, but that will probably have a big impact on wrestling as it gets more common too. So we are at an interesting point -- it's less about attracting more fans and more about getting more dollars out of the existing ones. I don't know if that's actually the stated goal of WWE at this point or not, but if so, it does change how we talk about this stuff, as the old metrics used to determine the most valuable guys in the company don't apply in the same way anymore. It probably requires a different booking approach too. This looks like something happening gradually more than all at once, but it's interesting.

[goc]

Edit your post and click the switch in the top left corner and I'm sure you'll be able to see what it causing the highlight stuff and get rid of it.

 

This is kind of why I've just been rolling my eyes at people acting like the sky is falling because the ratings are down. There are still close to 4 million people watching Raw every week. Ratings for cable and network TV is down across the board from 1999 so I don't know why people expect wrestling to be any different. Ratings are really not that important of an indicator especially when they're reporting great quarterly profits and have now gotten enough subscribers to make The Network profitable. And they're still one of the highest rated shows on cable.

[Loss]

Edit your post and click the switch in the top left corner and I'm sure you'll be able to see what it causing the highlight stuff and get rid of it.

 

This is kind of why I've just been rolling my eyes at people acting like the sky is falling because the ratings are down. There are still close to 4 million people watching Raw every week. Ratings for cable and network TV is dowm across the board from 1999 so I don't know why people expect wrestling to be any different. Ratings are really not that important of an indicator especially when they're reporting great quarterly profits and have now gotten enough subscribers to make The Network profitable. And they're still one of the highest rated shows on cable.

 

Thanks for the posting tip. It worked.

 

I'll ask you though -- do you think wrestling has hit a ceiling for how popular it can be? Are we at the maximum point where it can't really grow anymore than it already has? And do you think WWE has done anything really well that has facilitated the willingness of hardcore fans to spend more money? It's definitely an accomplishment, but it almost seems like dumb luck. I do get it with NXT because they've tapped into something and people are passionate about it. But otherwise, I don't really understand it.

[goc]

I honestly have no idea on how/if they can grow the audience and don't really think about it that much. I don't really care that much about modern WWE to worry about it. I do know that they aren't doing anything well enough to justify me giving them $9.99 a month especially when NWAClassics.com is giving me way more of the content that I want.

 

I guess a lot of people like NXT way more than I do but I watched about 10 episodes before the first Takeover show and I didn't get the hype. I thought the weekly episodes were kind of boring. If I am going to watch weekly episodes of something I'd much rather go into my territory collection and start watching Southeastern.

[Coffey]

In the future, instead of signing a contract with a TV station, could the future of pro-wrestling be exclusively like WWE Network, where you can only follow the product if you pay for the service?

 

I've seen a "movement" attempting to get Lucha Underground on Netflix as well. My first thought was "I could marathon it that way, so that'd be cool." Then I realized... everyone could do that. WWE Network right now, when I get bored, I can put on an old PPV from 1989 or something & have something to do for a few hours. That's incredible to me. A younger me used to watch "scramblevision" for shows my family was too poor to afford, so I could at least listen to the show to keep up with what was happening. Now I can see every show that they've had, many in HD, for $10 a month? It's still crazy for me to think about.

 

I don't think wrestling has hit the pinnacle that it can achieve. Look how big the NFL is nowadays. I still think wrestling can go higher, I just think it needs to change & feel different. Not a lot of people wanna just sit down and watch a show that long anymore, when all of it doesn't appeal to them. In the NFL, those games are long but people still watch them because either they have a relationship with one of the teams, or because the teams involved are in the division of the team they care about or because there's something on the line for the game. Every play feels like it matters. At any time someone could get a breakway run, or make a long pass, or there can be a turnover or something. In WWE, you put on the show... but more than half of it you probably don't care about & feel like you can skip it. It doesn't have the "anything can happen at any moment and it all matters" feel like an NFL game.

 

If WWE could get that atmosphere, they could be bigger. And people would pay for it. That's why I thought they had something special in Brock Lesnar. Whenever his music hits, you know something is going down. Imagine a roster of people like that...

[Slasher]

If WWE could get that atmosphere, they could be bigger. And people would pay for it. That's why I thought they had something special in Brock Lesnar. Whenever his music hits, you know something is going down. Imagine a roster of people like that...

That brings to mind though, the old adage "if everyone is a main eventer then no one is". I do think the WWE should switch all their programming over to the Network though mainly because the focus for the Network is still on the now and the future. If the network was what the old school fans wanted it to be, then they are better off keeping Raw on USA but the way they actually do the Network, they might as well go full steam ahead. It isn't like they have a good deal with USA to begin with. Sure they make money off it but I think they would earn a couple of thousand subscriptions if they had to watch Raw and SD on the network exclusively. This means getting off Hulu as well too.

 

I don't think the WWE has reached their ceiling in terms of making money off their current product. They have still a few things they could do to take more meat off the bone, so to speak. I do think now is a good time to take little more risks. However I do wonder if they are truly making more money though. It is amazing they get 400 bucks per head but what if there were only 20,000 people there. Is that better than getting 100 per head off 40-60,000 people? *Shrugs*

[Coffey]

 

If WWE could get that atmosphere, they could be bigger. And people would pay for it. That's why I thought they had something special in Brock Lesnar. Whenever his music hits, you know something is going down. Imagine a roster of people like that...

That brings to mind though, the old adage "if everyone is a main eventer then no one is".

 

 

 

This brings to mind a great old Paul Heyman quote too, when talking about Terry Funk in ECW. He only wanted one Legend on the roster so that he would stand out more. He made a comparison to if there's one-hundred blonde women in a room and one redhead, you naturally gravitate toward the redhead with your eyes. Or it was something close to that.

 

I'm of the belief though, that you can have a roster of people, top to bottom, that people care about. You just have to keep them special & have them all special for different reasons. Also, a big thing that WWE really fails at nowadays, you gotta keep them away from each other so that it's special when they do come together. Dudleys just came back cause they want a tag title shot. They already beat New Day on TV. We've already seen Kofi and Xavier take a 3D and Xavier go through a table. Why do we care to see it on PPV now? Big Braun just debuted. He already had a match with Ambrose on free TV. They don't build anything up.

 

In the NFL (sticking to my previous example) there's a lot of stars. Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning (just naming a few QBs for example). But when Brady and Manning go head-to-head in a Colts/Patriots game? It's a big deal. They could do that in WWE too. They did it with Hogan/André. They did it with Hogan/Warrior.

 

I think the biggest problem they face nowadays is how short-sighted they are. They have so much content they have to fill that they just burn through everything way too fast. By the time we're at the payoff, people have already lost interest because it's been ran into the ground.

[Matt D]

You know, that Training Center Tour Experience thing is totally a way to get "Whales."

[fakeplastictrees]

I think now more than ever WWE is actually looking toward the jaded fan to finally coughing up dough. Before the WWE Network, the last money I spent on a WWE product was my purchase of WM 18. The WWE Network and these live NXT specials make me fork money out of my pocket to support WWE. If The WWE Network were to close shop tomorrow and WWE felt that NXT was not worth it at all anymore and stopped televised operations completely, it is safe to say that I will be back at post WM 18 and pre-Network spending habits. Touching into all demos and not ignoring them (let's be honest about the NXT fanbase) is netting WWE more money.

 

This is why Attitude (or anything close to it) will not work in 2015 pro wrestling or anytime in the foreseeable future. Attitude was specific and worked in a bubble. The bubble is smaller and so that specific brand (or a specfic brand) that heavily tackles one area of the audience will fail.

[Slasher]

 

 

 

If WWE could get that atmosphere, they could be bigger. And people would pay for it. That's why I thought they had something special in Brock Lesnar. Whenever his music hits, you know something is going down. Imagine a roster of people like that...

That brings to mind though, the old adage "if everyone is a main eventer then no one is".

 

This brings to mind a great old Paul Heyman quote too, when talking about Terry Funk in ECW. He only wanted one Legend on the roster so that he would stand out more. He made a comparison to if there's one-hundred blonde women in a room and one redhead, you naturally gravitate toward the redhead with your eyes. Or it was something close to that.

 

I'm of the belief though, that you can have a roster of people, top to bottom, that people care about. You just have to keep them special & have them all special for different reasons. Also, a big thing that WWE really fails at nowadays, you gotta keep them away from each other so that it's special when they do come together. Dudleys just came back cause they want a tag title shot. They already beat New Day on TV. We've already seen Kofi and Xavier take a 3D and Xavier go through a table. Why do we care to see it on PPV now? Big Braun just debuted. He already had a match with Ambrose on free TV. They don't build anything up.

 

In the NFL (sticking to my previous example) there's a lot of stars. Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning (just naming a few QBs for example). But when Brady and Manning go head-to-head in a Colts/Patriots game? It's a big deal. They could do that in WWE too. They did it with Hogan/André. They did it with Hogan/Warrior.

 

I think the biggest problem they face nowadays is how short-sighted they are. They have so much content they have to fill that they just burn through everything way too fast. By the time we're at the payoff, people have already lost interest because it's been ran into the ground.

Sure you are right for the most part. The WWE should definitely make people matter to the fans beyond the old Attitude era legends. There is no reason why guys like Dolph Ziggler or Dean Ambrose can't be a star on Orton or Cena's level if the fans wants to see it. The only thing I was really taking exception (albeit in a nitpicky way) the idea that everyone should be as important as Brock Lesnar. I am sure that is not how you intended it to look, but you did bring him up. Using your analogy, Brady vs Manning matters a great deal to NFL fans because of what they mean to the league. Colin Kaepernick was at one time, a big star too...but yet the Kaepernick vs Brady matchup isn't Manning vs Brady. It is more like Rollins vs Triple H. A big matchup for sure but nothing on the level of Hogan/Andre or even Cena/Brock. You can't have 20 Brock Lesnars around because then you don't have THE Brock Lesnar.

 

Again, yes they should be more than what they are, though.

[DMJ]

The point about building up talent to face eachother is one that I wholeheartedly agree with - and yet another reason why the lack of a "ladder" is so frustrating and counterproductive. Look no further than the current Rusev/Ziggler storyline. It should've been a clear-cut storyline of Rusev trouncing Ziggler repeatedly to impress his ex-girlfriend, but instead, Ziggler (whose strength is being an underdog) is presented as being his equal - eventhough the company spent the better part of a year trying to make Rusev look like an unbeatable monster. In the process they've done serious harm to Rusev's longterm earning potential and, counterintuitively, by presenting Ziggler as equal or better than Rusev and Harper, they've actually hurt him too because you're only an underdog when you lose consistently (which makes your victories that much more meaningful). This is also a reason why having squash matches is key - if I see Reigns demolish guys for 5 weeks and see Braun demolish guys for 5 weeks, then on Week 6, when they square off on the big show, I'm going to be interested because both guys look like absolute destroyers impervious to pain. Something's gonna have to give and it's gonna be live on the Network for $9.99!!!

 

Which brings us back to the new wrestling economy - I think its a really interesting idea and one that I'm guessing more and more of the execs are understanding...but I wonder if Vince McMahon himself is fully confident or open-minded enough to consider that TV ratings and crossover appeal should no longer be his prime focus. I think it'd be hard for him to see that because, I'm guessing, in the early-to-mid-90s, he was hearing the same thing ("It'll never be like Hulkamania again"). Then, boom in 97', the company catches lightning-in-a-bottle again and all the people that said the company had "peaked" with Hogan were wrong in his eyes. It wouldn't surprise me for Vince to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder and fully believe that he's only one star away from doubling his ratings again...just like in 98'-99'.

[goodhelmet]

I think the ceiling has been hit in the Vince McMahon era. I don't think HHH and Steph are the ones to take it to new heights but I don't think Vince can lead the charge to increase the popularity of wrestling in this day and age.

[C.S.]

I guess a lot of people like NXT way more than I do but I watched about 10 episodes before the first Takeover show and I didn't get the hype. I thought the weekly episodes were kind of boring.

 

To be honest, they are - kinda. There's a good match here and there, but truth be told, the Specials are where NXT really shines.

[goc]

I can deal with weekly TV that doesn't really have anything to write home about match wise but you gotta give me some good promos. It's not like Southeastern TV was great from an in-ring standpoint maybe the best TV match I've seen from that era was Charlie Cook vs. Mr. Saito and I don't think most people would really care too much if they saw it now (I did upload it to youtube though). But at least I get to hear great talkers like Bob Armstrong, The Fullers, Jimmy Golden, Jerry Stubbs etc.

 

I can't remember anyone from the NXT episodes that I watched standing out in that regard.

[Slasher]

NXT is still at its heart a developmental show. Of course you are dealing with people who are not yet polished or are not given enough opportunities to showcase mic skills. I really think if the WWE found someone that could wow them in that department, they wouldn't be on NXT very long.

[Bierschwale]

You know, that Training Center Tour Experience thing is totally a way to get "Whales."

 

I didn't give it much thought, but yeah, this is his equivalent of getting money marks for his promotion. Him being able to show that he can do it.

[pol]

This is a really fascinating topic so it's a shame to see the discussion here turn into yet another hashing out of 'what WWE needs to do to be better' that you can find in dozens of other threads on this forum.

 

Anyway, this came up again on a recent Observer Radio. Dave noted that it's really the same pattern across all the major promotions; NJPW Korakuen business is down while their big shows are selling out. CMLL is about to do a record gate while having 10,000+ empty seats for the average Friday show.

 

Are there similar reasons for this across promotions? One pattern I see is that both CMLL and NJPW have extremely weak TV situations that severely hamper their ability to reach a non-hardcore audience and thus create new fans. WWE's TV situation is strong, but the creative is weak and a 3 hour show is too big a commitment for many existing fans, never mind a non-fan curious about the product. All three promotions lack exciting new stars at the top of the card (NJPW having created some most recently with Okada and AJ, which probably has a lot to do with them faring the best of the three, growth-wise).

[jdw]

Not sure if this is an entirely new concept.

 

All Japan Women were more popular in the 80s than in the 90s. The promotion was able to expand beyond their old core fandom of young girls to drawing males. There likely were less of them in total compared to those who watched and followed in the prior peak. They just happened to have more money, more ability to go to shows (buying their own tickets rather than relying on parents) and more money to toss at different types of merch.

[pol]

I don't understand what's suddenly inspiring such passion from the hardcore WWE fans though. In CMLL's case it's obvious why the Aniversario is by far the biggest show of the year. WrestleMania I get, but Summerslam? It's not like the build was particularly good. Is it just Taker/Brock?

[Sean Liska]

I think its a trend across all of entertainment due to all of our entertainment options. I'm sure Hollywood doesn't sell as many actual tickets as they once did, but they jack up prices with 3D and make a fortune. Jimmy Fallon does a fraction of the viewership that Leno was doing 15 years ago, but he's a big success and gets paid a ton. Baseball has never been less culturally relevant, but they're making more money than ever. Only the NFL is immune to it.

[BillThompson]

In the case of SummerSlam I think they've very much pushed it as an event for a few years now. The draw is the show itself, not sure when that started happening but I think it's clear now that they have positioned SummerSlam as a "to be at" event.

[Sean Liska]

I also think it's partly wrestling becoming part of nerd culture and more hardcore Internet fans being created. How many members does Wreddit have now? I went to an NXT show in Columbus and couldn't believe how many 20-something urban hipster types were there, it was a very different kind of crowd, and those people are more apt to travel. Rumble, Mania, and SummerSlam have become conventions of these hardcore fans. But even Raw crowds in big city have gotten more and more smarky and rebellious.

[sek69]

I'm wondering what non WWE companies are going to be able to draw revenue from in the future. DVD sales are pretty much going extinct, VOD is just now starting to prove someone viable after the initial debacles in that realm, and no one is getting any TV money worth a damn other than WWE. I know some groups have YouTube channels, but I've always been under the impression you don't make much money from that unless you have six digit subscriber levels.

[Sean Liska]

I don't think anyone thriving in this TV cash bubble knows how the money will be replaced when the bubble pops. At least they can cut costs easily.

[pol]

I also think it's partly wrestling becoming part of nerd culture and more hardcore Internet fans being created. How many members does Wreddit have now? I went to an NXT show in Columbus and couldn't believe how many 20-something urban hipster types were there, it was a very different kind of crowd, and those people are more apt to travel. Rumble, Mania, and SummerSlam have become conventions of these hardcore fans. But even Raw crowds in big city have gotten more and more smarky and rebellious.

 

I think this is on point. The modern adult fanbase has a LOT of crossover with fans of comic book franchises and shows like Dr. Who. The entirety of 'nerd culture' is predicated on defining your identity through the media you consume, so it makes sense that such a fanbase would be more inclined to drop large sums of money on the product.

 

As an aside, this kind of fanbase (and the shift of mainstream culture towards this kind of thing in general) is why WWE should be pushing guys in the Daniel Bryan/Sami Zayn/Bayley mold HARD. But they're out of touch so instead they still see Roman Reigns as the next big thing.