Bockwinkel vs. Flair

[JerryvonKramer]

Can see the eyes rolling already, but I think this does actually warrant a thread.

[Matt D]

I'm still a couple of months away from wanting to talk about this.

[Loss]

Yeah, other than Dylan, I'm not sure if anyone has seen enough of both guys at all points of their careers to make a fair comparison.

[goodhelmet]

That's not true. I think Khawk has seen more Bock than anyone. However, from what we have on tape, Flair's volume overwhelms Bock especially since Bock's prime years are lost to the dustbin of history. Now, somebody may like Bock more than Flair at this since he has gone away and is a breath of fresh air but from a match availability standpoint, Flair wins this.

[JerryvonKramer]

I would like to know about the Bock that didn't make the AWA set. Just out of interest. He is kinda boring in Japan sometimes, and from my sampling of 1970s stuff, worked a slower style to match the era.

[Childs]

Yeah, other than Dylan, I'm not sure if anyone has seen enough of both guys at all points of their careers to make a fair comparison.

 

Just curious why you think this is particularly true for this pair? Anyone who's watched all the '80s sets has at least a solid grasp of Bockwinkel. We're never going to get a full glimpse of his (or Flair's) work from the '70s so that's a dead end.

[Matt D]

The key thing with Bock as it pertains to footage is that we have him in a lot of different roles.

[Guest si oem]

.

[Loss]

 

Yeah, other than Dylan, I'm not sure if anyone has seen enough of both guys at all points of their careers to make a fair comparison.

 

Just curious why you think this is particularly true for this pair? Anyone who's watched all the '80s sets has at least a solid grasp of Bockwinkel. We're never going to get a full glimpse of his (or Flair's) work from the '70s so that's a dead end.

 

 

We've seen Flair's ups and downs. We've basically seen a "best of" of cream of the crop matches of Bockwinkel. Deducing that either is better than the other based on that alone is unfair.

 

I agree that something like the AWA set is enough to have a solid grasp of Bockwinkel, but if you limit it to that, the easy takeaway is that he never had any bad matches. Most people have seen a lot more Flair than has made 80s sets, so they've seen his low points (and other high points). With Bockwinkel, I think most of us have seen the equivalent of a Greatest Hits at best, where with Flair, we've gotten the box set of rarities and B-sides.

[Matt D]

I don't think that's true. It's not like only selected Bockwinkel matches were taped or survived in the span of his career that we have. If you feel that way, then maybe the opposite of what you're trying to say is true.

[Loss]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying a lot of Bockwinkel was probably watched that didn't make the AWA or All Japan sets at all, and I am asking if people who are so eager to make this comparison have bothered to seek that stuff out and watch it as well. If so, have at it. At least at that point comparisons are being made on the closest point possible to similar ground.

[Matt D]

I know I watch every match I can find (you know, that I don't have to spend money on). I'll admit that I haven't quite managed to watch the Brody one yet, for the sake of full disclosure. I can't speak for anyone else. You know my feelings about looking at as much as possible.

 

It's sort of simple to me. Flair's one of the best ever. He'll be in my top ten or just outside and I'm critical of him. I'm sure he's in MOST people's top ten. If anyone thinks Bock is better than Flair, then he has to be pretty damn good in their eyes, and I think anyone who feels that way, will have sought out most of what's at least readily available, good, bad, ugly, big match, jobber match, tag match, etc. I know I have.

 

It's no great find or anything, but I came across our friend in Japan's youtube account by doing my semi-regular "nick bockwinkel" search to see if anything popped up recently.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm very high on Bock and have also seen plenty of average or mediocre Bock matches that were not on DVDR sets.

 

There is more Bock on tape than there is for a lot of guys.

 

But Loss's point about selection bias is true and real. As in more people would have seen more Flair and just AWA set picks for Bock.

 

Flair is the beast of the 80s sets though already and Crockett hasn't even dropped, so there is that.

[El-P]

From this thread, it seems like basically, the guys with the most footage should win.

 

At this point really, I take a great Bock match over a great Flair match, and that's what matters to me. Hell, I take a good/very good Bock match over your regular Flair-o-rama.

[Guest si oem]

Deleted because I was being cunty; this is my endeavor: to be a better man.

[Grimmas]

Bock was born in 34, Flair in 49. We have a lot of 1980+ Bock, so we should compare that to 1995+ Flair to be fair.

[JerryvonKramer]

Bock was born in 34, Flair in 49. We have a lot of 1980+ Bock, so we should compare that to 1995+ Flair to be fair.

 

Don't agree with this for all sorts of reasons. Because it seems to me that Bock did genuinely hit a peak in the 80s, and changed his style of working. It's not like there is zero 70s Bock on tape. We have as much if not more as we have of a guy like Jack Brisco, enough to see what he was like, enough to see him in a range of different situations. More 70s AWA was preserved, and he crops up in Japan and random places like Hawaii too. I've seen enough to know that 70s Bock doesn't look as good as 80s Bock.

 

Maybe others could dive into 70s Bock too to make their own call.

[BillThompson]

I'll have Bock ahead of Flair. I've seen more than enough of both to know that I both prefer Bock as a worker and think he is the better worker. Good or bad, Bock offered more variety in addition to having a signature style on lockdown. What I know is this; Bock worked in a way that I preferred, I find the highest of Bock's highs to be higher than the same from Flair, and when he's at his worst I prefer Bock to Flair at his worst.

[JerryvonKramer]

I find the highest of Bock's highs to be higher than the same from Flair, and when he's at his worst I prefer Bock to Flair at his worst.

Any chance that you could list these out? I'm just curious?

 

From the top 100 that I did recently I have this:

 

88. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Wahoo McDaniel (8/28/83)

81. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86)

58. Billy Robinson vs. Nick Bockwinkel (12/11/80)

23. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (11/21/86)

 

One five-star match, three I have at **** 3/4. Do you have any other Bock matches high that I missed? To me these are the highest of Bock's highs.

 

For Flair I have this:

 

90. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (11/15/89)

83. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90)

71. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (04/03/88)

68. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

64. Anderson, Flair, Blanchard, Luger and Dillon vs. Nikita Koloff, Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors and Paul Ellering (7/4/87)

45. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)

42. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (9/26/87)

37. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (5/7/89)

29. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83)

27. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (7/23/89)

19. Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner vs. Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham & Sid Vicious (2/24/91)

10. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (2/20/89)

1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (4/2/89)

 

To me these are the highest of Flair's highs.

 

I do actually want to press statements like this because if there are a whole bevvy of five-star Bock matches I've missed, I'd like to see them.

[BillThompson]

 

I find the highest of Bock's highs to be higher than the same from Flair, and when he's at his worst I prefer Bock to Flair at his worst.

Any chance that you could list these out? I'm just curious?

 

From the top 100 that I did recently I have this:

 

88. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Wahoo McDaniel (8/28/83)

81. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86)

58. Billy Robinson vs. Nick Bockwinkel (12/11/80)

23. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (11/21/86)

 

One five-star match, three I have at **** 3/4. Do you have any other Bock matches high that I missed? To me these are the highest of Bock's highs.

 

For Flair I have this:

 

90. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (11/15/89)

83. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90)

71. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (04/03/88)

68. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

64. Anderson, Flair, Blanchard, Luger and Dillon vs. Nikita Koloff, Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors and Paul Ellering (7/4/87)

45. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)

42. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (9/26/87)

37. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (5/7/89)

29. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83)

27. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (7/23/89)

19. Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner vs. Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham & Sid Vicious (2/24/91)

10. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (2/20/89)

1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (4/2/89)

 

To me these are the highest of Flair's highs.

 

I do actually want to press statements like this because if there are a whole bevvy of five-star Bock matches I've missed, I'd like to see them.

 

 

That's a quantity argument, which I'm not making. I probably have Flair with more great matches, in fact I know I do. But, I'm talking about Bock/Flair on the whole, not just in great matches. When he's at his very best, which is in most of the matches you listed, I prefer Bock more and think he is better in general. But, for me when I say highest of highs it's not about the ***** matches, but about when Bock was at his absolute best as a performer. Take this match for instance,

 

 

Now, I've grown to be quite fond of Burke, but this is no *****, or even **** affair. But it's Bock at his absolute best, making Burke look like a million bucks and working in a way that I prefer over how Flair handled such matches. That's not a knock on Flair's approach, which produced plenty of greatness, I mean, Flair is still in contention for my top 10 even if he's just outside of it right now. But, I get far more enjoyment and see more to chew on in the best Bock performances versus the best Flair performances.

[Loss]

Who are Bockwinkel's signature rivals and who would be the most comparable Flair rival in each case? This is a case just like any of the other comparisons where I think the method for getting to the opinion is far more interesting and revealing than the opinion itself.

[khawk20]

Bock vs. Hennig = Flair vs. Magnum

 

Bock vs. Verne = Flair vs. Race

 

Bock vs. Lawler = Flair vs. Rhodes

 

Bock vs. Robinson = Flair vs. Ron Garvin (maybe Terry Funk?)

 

Bock vs. Martel = Flair vs. DiBiase (maybe)

 

Bock vs. Hogan = Flair vs...good question, actually. Vader? Monster Heel vs. Monster face as opponents is the initial thought here...both fighting "monsters" as it were.

 

Also: Bock vs. Brunzell = Flair vs. Morton. Both Champions made you believe that the face tag wrestler might actually pull off a title win, which is an incredible skill to have IMO.

 

 

 

These all were the first guys that popped into my head in doing the comparison. There are likely better comparables in a lot of cases on Flair's side of the ledger on that list.

[JerryvonKramer]

Bock vs. Hogan = Flair vs...good question, actually. Vader? Monster Heel vs. Monster face as opponents is the initial thought here...both fighting "monsters" as it were.

Flair vs. Hogan maybe?

[GOTNW]

Bockwinkel puts on a Side Headlock. Opponent tries to counter it with a top wristlock. Bockwinkel pulls him by the hair and puts him back in the Side Headlock.

 

 

That's way cooler than getting thrown off the top rope.

[Matt D]

I think it'd also be interesting to compare specific elements:

 

Hope spot cut offs, feeding shines or comebacks, early match "time killing", all of those elements but from the babyface side, southern tag heat, jobber matches, etc. Some of that you get from the sort of role based comparisons that were listed above, but some you can get through looking at a lot of different matches and situations.