JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 On Low Ki, I genuinely think he feels like he's computer generated. He actually reminds me of the the "blank face" in games where you have to make your own character. On Liger, I need to think carefully on adjusting those ratings because I'm pretty sure those changes would put him #3 and maybe even #2. That would put him over Jumbo, Tenryu, Funk, Hansen and all the AJ guys. On the Variety rating, I think fair is fair if someone can get past that 30 opponents mark, as per Bryan, he can get the 10. I couldn't get there just thinking about it in my head, but that of course doesn't mean he doesn't have them. The offense thing basically comes down to my general distaste for the flippy flippy, and -- well -- the style of offense Liger helped to popularise. I don't love his matwork either. The 3/3 offense rating tends to be reserved for people with basically perfect execution like Bobby Eaton or Barry Windham or Hase or guys who just hit their offense so hard that I can overlook the execution, think Misawa or Kawada or Kobashi. Liger's not quite there in either of those cases. Also remember that it's a GWE scale. A truly terrific worker like Tully with his sweet sweet slingshot suplex is only a 1/3 on offense. The +1 Liger has gotten for innovation does reflect his huge arsenal of different moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Jun Akiyama Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 3 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 1996-2015 = 19 years = 10 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 8 39 Ability to work different styles/and roles for Akiyama is like.....seven at least. I'd give him ten without thinking about him but. I honestly don't see how anyone could realistically give him two. I'd give him +1 for being able to work heel as well. Sure, he it wasn't him working like Abdullah The Butcher or whatever, but playing the subtle, outmatched heel Akiyama did is something I find far more complex and interesting than just working as a "bad guy". We also need to take into account that by the time Akiyama's heel run had started "heels" had longe since been cheered heavily in Japan. But I do think he was great at it. And his track record against rookies and less capable opponents shows how great he is at structuring matches, carrying other folks etc. I would also take away the +1 for being company ace since that was never what he was and replace it with the aforementioned +1 for his heel work. But he's great as a rookie, great in those mid-late big All Japan tags, great as an upper midcarder challenging for the Triple Crown, great as a heel breaking out and getting his first main event push, great as a grizzled veteran torturing young boys.....come on. I understand you haven't seen much of his late work but two is just......not right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 In Parv's defense, he has a very specific set of boxes that someone can tick to earn points in the Variety of Roles category. It's not an overall number out of 10, it's how many of those boxes a guy can tick. He doesn't give anyone points for working as a midcarder or a grizzled vet. I get being frustrated with the number at the end, but he came to the number the same way he came to everyone else's. Only certain "variety" traits get points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 In Parv's defense, he has a very specific set of boxes that someone can tick to earn points in the Variety of Roles category. It's not an overall number out of 10, it's how many of those boxes a guy can tick. He doesn't give anyone points for working as a midcarder or a grizzled vet. I get being frustrated with the number at the end, but he came to the number the same way he came to everyone else's. Only certain "variety" traits get points. That is something that I have accepted but I would be lying if I didn't roll my eyes seeing a +7 for Sheik in the A category compared to a +2 for AKiyama. I think it might be beneficial to see how many people he has given the +3 to and rather that really deserves that high of a bonus. For example, I think +3 to work as ultimate ace of a promotion would be more exclusive and worthy of the deep bonus. I wouldn't even advocate for Akiyama as a +3 in that regard either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I'd think Akiyama would earn a heel point for his work as a blonde in New Japan G1 alone. Great stuff there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 On Low Ki, I genuinely think he feels like he's computer generated. He actually reminds me of the the "blank face" in games where you have to make your own character. I can't take this argument seriously when he took a huge part in creating atmospheres like in his matches vs. Necro, KENTA, Joe (in both PWG and ROH). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I am not that familiar with Bryan's indy run, but can someone make an argument that he deserves a 9 or a 10 for great matches? vs. Samoa Joe: ROH 10/2/04 vs. James Gibson: ROH 9/17/05 vs. Nigel McGuinness: ROH 8/12/06 vs. KENTA: ROH 9/16/06 vs. KENTA: ROH 6/23/07 vs. Morishima: ROH 8/25/07 vs. Tyler Black: ROH 7/26/08 vs. Morishima: ROH 12/27/08 vs. Hero: PWG 9/4/09 vs. Doi: DGUSA 9/6/09 vs. Bobby Fish: EVOLVE 7/23/10 vs. Shingo: DGUSA 7/24/10 Edit: Thought you were asking for recommendations. Sorry. Anyways, yes, he deserves a 9 or 10. He's one of the most dynamic workers ever. In every style he's attempted, he's succeeded. He played the role of a touring champion, a junior heavyweight, a vicious brawler, and a smooth technician all extremely well. I plan on making a list in the next few days of guys that have had their best match ever against Danielson. He's #2 only to KENTA in my pick for Wrestler of the Decade (in the 2000s) and all of that work was done on the indies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Why do Johnny Saint and Breaks' primes start in '72 and extend to '85? What were either of them doing in '85 that mattered? How on earth does Breaks get a point for tag work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 If Breaks doesn't get that point he's a 0 for A, fair? Where would you put the cut offs OJ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Also, fuck my Lucha rule, I'm only ever going to be doing this once, so might as well make it as representative as I can: Negro Casas Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 = 9 Intangibles 7 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 87-04 [beyond doesn't matter] = 17+ years = 10 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Mexico, Japan, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 9 50 Mocha Cota Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 8 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 83-94 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 6 38 Rey Mysterio Jr Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 92-10 = 18 years = 10 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Mexico, ECW, WCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 10 41 El Dandy Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 3 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 88-97 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 7 36 Mil Mascaras Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 0/3 1/3 = 3 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 69-80 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan, Mexico) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 8 35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Slight re-work on: Jun Akiyama Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 3 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 1996-2015 = 19 years = 10 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 8 39 AJPW candidates continue to get penalised for not travelling or working any gimmick matches, brawls etc. But it is what it is. You can't on the one hand praise Funk for his versatility while turning a blind eye to the fact that the AJ guys only really mastered one style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Playing devil's advocate, couldn't one make a case penalizing Funk for not lasting as long in place as top stars in All Japan or elsewhere? Undoubtedly kept himself and things fresh by moving around, but on the other hand where did he stick it out every week and month through ups and downs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Mysterio Jr. getting a 6 in great matches is criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Playing devil's advocate, couldn't one make a case penalizing Funk for not lasting as long in place as top stars in All Japan or elsewhere? Undoubtedly kept himself and things fresh by moving around, but on the other hand where did he stick it out every week and month through ups and downs? One could, and I've made the case myself. However, remember that this isn't designed to be a "fair" system, it's designed to be a system that measures the six things that *I* think the GWE should have. It started with the case I made for Flair, taking into account the arguments put forward by Will for Lawler and by Dylan for Funk, and worked backwards. My argument against Misawa and co is *specifically* that the scope of their careers is narrow, so it is not entirely innocent that they are getting fucked in the A category. (lol "fucked in the A", ha ha). Chad also knows this, of course. And I'd expect him to make the counters he is. But it's also the case that he does not value that A category as much as other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Mysterio Jr. getting a 6 in great matches is criminal. Well, I don't like lots of them. See my review of Eddie vs. Rey 97, for example. I do not like Rey. The fact I'm rating him at all is testament to the fact that his case is strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Manny Fernandez Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 2 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multple markets (Memphis, JCP, Puerto Rico, Southwest, Central States, Florida) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 4 15 Mr. Fuji Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 0 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multple markets (Memphis, PNW, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, GCW, WWF, San Francisco) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 5 18 Masa Fuchi Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 3/3 = 7 Intangibles 2 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 1980-94 = 14 years = 8 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 Variety = 8 33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Mysterio Jr. getting a 6 in great matches is criminal. Well, I don't like lots of them. See my review of Eddie vs. Rey 97, for example. I do not like Rey. The fact I'm rating him at all is testament to the fact that his case is strong. I can see where you're coming from in the review of Eddie vs. Rey. How much of his WWE run have you seen? I know you touched on some Smackdown Six stuff, but what about a few years later? My favorite part of the GWE project has been watching six minute Rey matches. His TV matches are so much fun and his big matches, when he has them, connect with me time after time. He's probably going to end up being my #5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Playing devil's advocate, couldn't one make a case penalizing Funk for not lasting as long in place as top stars in All Japan or elsewhere? Undoubtedly kept himself and things fresh by moving around, but on the other hand where did he stick it out every week and month through ups and downs? One could, and I've made the case myself. However, remember that this isn't designed to be a "fair" system, it's designed to be a system that measures the six things that *I* think the GWE should have. It started with the case I made for Flair, taking into account the arguments put forward by Will for Lawler and by Dylan for Funk, and worked backwards. My argument against Misawa and co is *specifically* that the scope of their careers is narrow, so it is not entirely innocent that they are getting fucked in the A category. (lol "fucked in the A", ha ha). Chad also knows this, of course. And I'd expect him to make the counters he is. But it's also the case that he does not value that A category as much as other people. Its a fair point and while I obviously don't value Funk's runs relative to the AJ crew quite so highly, its your system and subject to your opinions and evaluations. It just so happens you've peeled back the curtain on your process so you're getting more pointed questioning than other folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 AJPW candidates continue to get penalised for not travelling or working any gimmick matches, brawls etc. But it is what it is. You can't on the one hand praise Funk for his versatility while turning a blind eye to the fact that the AJ guys only really mastered one style. Akiyama is the last guy out of the All Japan folks I'd point to as being one-dimensional. In fact I'm not sure there is a more versatile All Japan lineage performer. Like. Ever. The idea he is a "2" in being able to play different roles is so ridiculous that the only way I can take it seriously is if you haven't watched enough Akiyama matches to properly evaluate him. Which is fine in itself. But just because someone who is a "ten" exists doesn't mean someone like Akiyama who showed great range throughout his career is a two and I doubt gimmick matches and brawl carry 8 points in your category. Jimmy mentions this: , he has a very specific set of boxes that someone can tick to earn points in the Variety of Roles category. It's not an overall number out of 10, it's how many of those boxes a guy can tick. He doesn't give anyone points for working as a midcarder or a grizzled vet. Care to actually go through all the boxes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Playing devil's advocate, couldn't one make a case penalizing Funk for not lasting as long in place as top stars in All Japan or elsewhere? Undoubtedly kept himself and things fresh by moving around, but on the other hand where did he stick it out every week and month through ups and downs? One could, and I've made the case myself. However, remember that this isn't designed to be a "fair" system, it's designed to be a system that measures the six things that *I* think the GWE should have. It started with the case I made for Flair, taking into account the arguments put forward by Will for Lawler and by Dylan for Funk, and worked backwards. My argument against Misawa and co is *specifically* that the scope of their careers is narrow, so it is not entirely innocent that they are getting fucked in the A category. (lol "fucked in the A", ha ha). Chad also knows this, of course. And I'd expect him to make the counters he is. But it's also the case that he does not value that A category as much as other people. Its a fair point and while I obviously don't value Funk's runs relative to the AJ crew quite so highly, its your system and subject to your opinions and evaluations. It just so happens you've peeled back the curtain on your process so you're getting more pointed questioning than other folks. Yes, this is called transparency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 For Low-Ki's peak, he was #7 on the DVDVR 500 for 2001, so his peak should at least start then, he was in two of the Segunda Caida top 10 matches of 2015 which suggest his peak should still be going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 AJPW candidates continue to get penalised for not travelling or working any gimmick matches, brawls etc. But it is what it is. You can't on the one hand praise Funk for his versatility while turning a blind eye to the fact that the AJ guys only really mastered one style. Akiyama is the last guy out of the All Japan folks I'd point to as being one-dimensional. In fact I'm not sure there is a more versatile All Japan lineage performer. Like. Ever. The idea he is a "2" in being able to play different roles is so ridiculous that the only way I can take it seriously is if you haven't watched enough Akiyama matches to properly evaluate him. Which is fine in itself. But just because someone who is a "ten" exists doesn't mean someone like Akiyama who showed great range throughout his career is a two and I doubt gimmick matches and brawl carry 8 points in your category. Jimmy mentions this: , he has a very specific set of boxes that someone can tick to earn points in the Variety of Roles category. It's not an overall number out of 10, it's how many of those boxes a guy can tick. He doesn't give anyone points for working as a midcarder or a grizzled vet. Care to actually go through all the boxes? I can in a bit sure. I have discussed this once already, a few pages back, but getting over in multiple markets is no trivial thing. Getting over in New York isn't the same as getting over in Tokyo isn't the same as getting over at The Omni, different crowds, different contexts, different expectations, different specific set of skills required. It's not like the three points are for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Getting over in New York isn't the same as getting over in Tokyo isn't the same as getting over at The Omni, different crowds, different contexts, different expectations, different specific set of skills required. Sure, but that's what you usually give bonus points to. And it's something I'm willing to accept as a reason why you wouldn't give him a 10/9/8 in role-playing. Maybe this is a better way to phrase it-what skills do you think he doesn't possess that a worker with his career narrative should have to earn the maximum amount of points he could in your system? What types of matches do you think he could've worked that his american counterparts or predecessors like Jumbo did? Squash matches? Sprints? Longer bouts? Maybe something more matwork oriented? Why is Jumbo a 5 but Akiyama a 2? If you're giving someone bonus points for being successful (over) in another environment but also giving them more points for "the ability to play different roles" and basind their higher rating in their field on them being successful overseas you're kind of giving them points for the same thing twice, does that matter to you that much? Do you not think a worker who can play different roles in the same environment should be rewarded as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 The system rewards guys who do things outside of their comfort zone, or at least show a very different string to their bow. Brawlers get points if they show they can work technical matches. Most technical wrestlers get points if they show they can work brawls Most guys who worked a variety of gimmick matches get points for that, but note not Abby or Sheik Guys who carried promotions and worked as aces get a point for that. Guys who worked tags and showed they could do that well get a point for that Guys who got over in a different gimmick get points for that Guys who transition from one style to another get points for that If a guy is typically a heel and shows he could get over as a babyface, or vice versa, they get a point for that Within the A category, people do not get points for: - moving up or down the card - getting older - showing they can work with different types of opponents (since the V rating is dedicated to that) - doing aspects of their role that is expected of them anyway, for example Akiyama playing FIP during a tag, that is covered in the point he got for working tags - sprints - long matches - squashes These last three are just expected of any worker worth their salt. The system doesn't reward guys just doing their jobs, it rewards guys who showed they could do different jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Cena having great tag team matches with The Shield and others and being a surprisingly good FIP, as Phil Rippa pointed out today, gets him a point. This, apparently, does not get JBL one: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.