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Your "So So Good" Top 100 Matches of All Time

elliott

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  On 1/16/2016 at 11:54 PM, JerryvonKramer said:

 

  On 1/16/2016 at 11:44 PM, Childs said:

I agree Clash is the best, but I could see a case for Chi-Town because it was so tight and because the finish was a cool moment. I don't see much argument for Wrestle War, which probably wouldn't make my top 100.

See I'm the same, have Wrestlewar some ways behind the other two. And I guess I'm just curious about the Wrestlewar love.

 

I made the analogy before that Clash is the classic album, Chi-Town the killer single, and Wrestlewar the greatest hits tour. It's always felt a bit less vital than than the other two for me.

 

Wrestlewar had a really interesting dynamic for me with Flair coming in vulnerable (due to the chicken wing threat) and desperate in his final chance to win back the title. Steamboat pretty much dominates him and Flair is almost an underdog. But he is still really savvy and uses his wits to force Steamboat to abandon his strategy and then capitalizes on it. It is probably his best performance, IMO.

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pantherwagner Newbie

pantherwagner

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  On 1/17/2016 at 12:25 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

I've been living in Japan for too long cos when I saw that title I thought it was a list of matches that are just okay.

 

Nice to see you still carrying the torch for Queendom after all these years.

 

I have gone to Japan too much because I thought exactly the same thing.

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elliott Enthusiast

elliott

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  On 1/17/2016 at 12:25 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

I've been living in Japan for too long cos when I saw that title I thought it was a list of matches that are just okay.

 

Nice to see you still carrying the torch for Queendom after all these years.

 

That's the match that hasn't moved from the top 3ish spots for my "favorite/best matches I've ever seen" pretty much since I first saw it almost 16 years ago. Every time I watch it I always expect to not love it as much as before but it never happens. A common phrase you'll hear about great long matches is "this went almost 40 minutes but it flew by" or some variation of that. The Queendom match is long and it feels like a long match. But I mean that in the best possible way. They had a big story to tell and pulled it off. Its like the Lawrence of Arabia of wrestling matches with Akira Hokuto as Lawrence and Shinobu Kandori as Sherif Ali.

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elliott Enthusiast

elliott

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  On 1/17/2016 at 5:30 AM, Loss said:

Fun list. I wish I could pull it off but I don't think I could make a list I'd be happy with.

 

It is a neverending project in a lot of ways. My top 6 I feel really good about. But after that it gets more difficult for sure and I could make changes endlessly.

 

There are a bunch of matches that didn't make that first draft because I either inexplicably forgot about them like Casas vs Santo from 97, Dandy vs Azteca from 90, and Maeda vs Takada from 88, wasn't sure on the dates like various Rose/Martel, Rose/Piper, Fujiwara/Sayama, Fujiwara/Maeda, Fabs/Moondogs, every BattlArts match, and in the case of Super Dragon vs Necro Butcher I just didn't watch it in time. I was putting this out there as a snapshot/rough draft.

 

So I plan on revisiting this as I watch more stuff and may even extend it to a top 200 or switch it up and do "Top 100 Favorite Matches" list instead of best even if there would be some overlap.

 

I also kinda, sorta, maybe, think we should do a top 100 matches poll after the GWE finishes up.

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Jimmy Redman Contributor

Jimmy Redman

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I remember doing a Top 100 matches list years ago and it was pretty much 95% modern WWE, with a handful of TNA and twentieth century matches thrown in. It would probably look exceedingly ridiculous now, but that's where I was in my wrestling viewing at that time.

 

I kind of feel like I should attempt a list now just to see the difference. To be honest, I still find it hard to compare my favourite WWE matches to my favourite "other" matches, because it's so hard to go past the ones that you grew up on and lived through.

 

In that sense I actually find it much easier to compare wrestlers for GWE than compare matches for a Best Matches list. But I find it much more enjoyable to make lists of matches than lists of wrestlers.

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Cap Rookie

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To move back a ways, as a way of providing some reasoning for Wrestlewar, I probably have it JUST edging out the clash match as my favorite because I like how so many of the spots subtly call back to other things that happened early. I think the story of all three is one of Steamboat being a little quicker, a little more athletic, and just getting the best of Flair in the first two. Flair on the other hand is always learning and starts anticipating Steamboat's moves a bit more each time out. By the third match he gets a step ahead. For example, in wrestlewar there are a few spots where Steamer goes for something he hit and hit BIG in the first two. My favorite was the big running cross body. He hit that in both I think, (maybe just one), but it was a big flashy offensive move for Steamer that helped him get momentum and demonstrate that he had Flair's number. In Wrestlewar Flair just drops out of the way and Steamboat flies out of the ring and it is a turning point in the match. I read that as Flair's preparation, muscle memory, and study paying off in the long run, the story of what makes him a great champion paying off long term. I remember seeing Flair getting an extra counter or two to some of Steamer's better moves in the second match and then a few more in the third and it is that payoff i really liked. I also see in my notes on the matches that Flair's offense felt a little more urgent throughout, a little more ruthless, just in the way he was using his body language and the spaces between moves. I don't have a specific instance noted so I might have to look again to see exactly what I mean, but that is something that struck me on last watch.

 

Ultimately, i have all three of them at 5 stars because I don't think you can detach them from one another. They are all 4 and 3/4 or 5 in a vacuum, but I just can't help but think about and rate them with a mind to how they worked together in the bigger story they were telling. I could go back today and watch them and might have them in different spots, depending on what I am really paying attention to or what is standing out. Last time I watched though I had Wrestlewar just a hair ahead of Clash and chi-town coming in third.

 

 

As for the topic... fun list. I can see myself wanting to spend my evening starting a working list like this sometime in the near future. I just watched that Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 match over the holidays and it is hard to argue with it up top.

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Cap Rookie

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Also, I am really glad to see Cena vs Dragon on there. I think that match got unfairly lost behind the Brock vs Punk match that night and I think Cena/Dragon was much better. Bryan is my favorite wrestler ever probably and that is maybe my favorite Bryan match, though I have Nigel/Dragon from United rated higher.

 

I would also like to hear why you have Flair and Funk's Bash match so much higher than their Clash match. I think maybe most people do, but I always found the Clash match much more compelling and satisfying. I am a sucker for blood too. I just find think Flair and Funk really lack momentum for the entire first half of the Bash match and when I am watching really critically I get hung up on that. It would very likely make my top 100 list, but I am just more into the Clash match. I am just curious about your thinking on it.

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fxnj Community Regular

fxnj

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I don't see at all how ranking wrestlers is easier than ranking matches. If you watch a match 5 times and have read a little about its background, you have a pretty well informed opinion on that match. Compare that to watching 5 matches from a guy for the GWE and reading a little about his background, which can only ever give you a very superficial understanding of them.

 

I'd also argue that it works much better as a snapshot since it could be updated every year or 2 due to not requiring the same massive viewing/discussion project as GWE. Also, it gives a much better idea of what people like and how they rank the new shit with the usual suspects seeing the matches directly ranked instead of just the wrestlers involved.

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Jimmy Redman Contributor

Jimmy Redman

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  On 1/18/2016 at 5:28 PM, fxnj said:

I don't see at all how ranking wrestlers is easier than ranking matches. If you watch a match 5 times and have read a little about its background, you have a pretty well informed opinion on that match. Compare that to watching 5 matches from a guy for the GWE and reading a little about his background, which can only ever give you a very superficial understanding of them.

 

I'd also argue that it works much better as a snapshot since it could be updated every year or 2 due to not requiring the same massive viewing/discussion project as GWE. Also, it gives a much better idea of what people like and how they rank the new shit with the usual suspects seeing the matches directly ranked instead of just the wrestlers involved.

 

I wasn't really clear - I meant that I find it easier to compare wrestlers from different eras than compare matches from different eras without being hampered by sentimentality.

 

I can look at, say, John Cena and compare him to other guys that I didn't grow up on for the purposes of GWE, and I feel like I can at least entertain the notion of having someone else above him, even though he's my favourite. But if you ask me to compare, say, Cena vs Umaga to the best matches from other eras that I didn't grow up on, I would never in a million years be able to rank those matches above it.

 

And the same holds true for all my favourite matches. Even now, if I made a Top 100 list and tried to put them in order I can't even imagine how far down I would get before I listed something that wasn't modern WWE. Embarrassingly far, I'm guessing. And it's not that I'm a blind mark I just...individual matches evoke something more visceral out of me than a wrestler's whole career. I need to feel it, and like everyone generally speaking, I feel most for the things I grew up on, and I find it hard to compare that to something I'm watching much more out of context.

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concrete1992 Contributor

concrete1992

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Admittedly I feel like sort of a scumbag doing this but self-interest forces me to say a GME project in the vein of GWE will be going down for those interested. It is over at VoW but I'm essentially organizing it.

 

If that needs to be deleted so be it but I thought it would interest those that are looking/posting in this thread

 

http://voicesofwrestling.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=12&sid=5420680e68f3ac8477834af104d875de

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Jimmy Redman Contributor

Jimmy Redman

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So this is my little present to myself now that GWE and all that it entails is (almost) over. I have turned away from the weight of ranking wrestlers for all eternity, and sought solace in the comforting arms of my favourite ever matches.

 

I've been thinking about the idea of doing this for a while, but I've just spent an hour or so writing it out off the top of my head, without doing any preparation or rewatching or anything. Once you get past the first 25 or so the order is a TOTAL crapshoot, just me sliding matches in somewhere that looked good as I thought of them. I will hate this thing in a week, not to mention all the matches I've forgotten, but whatever. Just listing them out and thinking about all these awesome matches with no pressure to put them in any wider context was wonderful. Like I said, this was my reward for getting through GWE.

 

I said above my previous Top 100 list was like 90% modern WWE. I've clearly grown a lot in those couple years because now my list is only about two-thirds modern WWE. Progress.

 

My Top 100 Greatest / Best / Favourite / So So Good Matches of All Time (they all mean the same fucking thing)

 

 

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Johnny Sorrow Community Regular

Johnny Sorrow

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  On 4/30/2016 at 12:52 PM, Jimmy Redman said:

So this is my little present to myself now that GWE and all that it entails is (almost) over. I have turned away from the weight of ranking wrestlers for all eternity, and sought solace in the comforting arms of my favourite ever matches.

 

I've been thinking about the idea of doing this for a while, but I've just spent an hour or so writing it out off the top of my head, without doing any preparation or rewatching or anything. Once you get past the first 25 or so the order is a TOTAL crapshoot, just me sliding matches in somewhere that looked good as I thought of them. I will hate this thing in a week, not to mention all the matches I've forgotten, but whatever. Just listing them out and thinking about all these awesome matches with no pressure to put them in any wider context was wonderful. Like I said, this was my reward for getting through GWE.

 

I said above my previous Top 100 list was like 90% modern WWE. I've clearly grown a lot in those couple years because now my list is only about two-thirds modern WWE. Progress.

 

My Top 100 Greatest / Best / Favourite / So So Good Matches of All Time (they all mean the same fucking thing)

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So I assume you've never seen Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard "I Quit" Steel Cage match for the United States Title from Starrcade 1985? Cause, ya really should. B)

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Jimmy Redman Contributor

Jimmy Redman

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  On 5/1/2016 at 11:02 AM, Sidebottom said:

No Bret Hart matches is interesting...

 

Not to me haha. Just sort of backs up what I've always said about Bret, that he's fine but doesn't really resonate with me on a higher level.

 

For what it's worth, the Bret matches I like most are Austin at WM, and the Owen cage match. The latter was always one of my favourite "old" matches back when 90% of the "old" stuff I'd seen was whatever happened to get on WWE released DVDs. But there's nothing that would come too close to my personal list.

 

No lucha matches is far more interesting to me, now that I've noticed that. For how much more I "get" and enjoy lucha these days, I still don't have even one standout match that I can point to for a list like this. My favourite lucha match is probably still When Worlds Collide. With lucha all the matches blend together for me, I just let them wash over me and see what takeaways I got from them in terms of individual workers. But that was looking at it through a GWE lens.

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Gutenberger Newbie

Gutenberger

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  On 5/3/2016 at 3:28 AM, Jimmy Redman said:

 

  On 5/1/2016 at 11:02 AM, Sidebottom said:

No Bret Hart matches is interesting...

 

Not to me haha. Just sort of backs up what I've always said about Bret, that he's fine but doesn't really resonate with me on a higher level.

 

For what it's worth, the Bret matches I like most are Austin at WM, and the Owen cage match. The latter was always one of my favourite "old" matches back when 90% of the "old" stuff I'd seen was whatever happened to get on WWE released DVDs. But there's nothing that would come too close to my personal list.

Finally someone who expresses the exact same view about Hart as I do.

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JerryvonKramer Contributor

JerryvonKramer

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Let's all marinate in the juices of unbridled subjectivity and celebrate as Justin Bieber fans gleefully declare Believe as being "better than Nirvana, Bob Dylan and Prince combined".

 

One fan was quoted as saying, "the music just speaks to me so much more. I just love 'All Around the World' featuring Ludacris! It means so much to me!"

 

Another said, "Justin Bieber gives us the eternal cry of youth, his music will be remembered for years to come".

 

Let us celebrate.

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