Which luchadores are you ranking?

[ohtani's jacket]

That skit was pretty good. Now I'm gonna imagine the Desolate Shore every time you struggle with a lucha match.

 

One thing I don't really get is how you never got into Santo. He seems highly accessible, easy to understand and someone you'd be able to appreciate. I can't imagine a person who likes Liger, for example, not enjoying Santo.

[Jimmy Redman]

Parv doesn't really like dives but.

[ohtani's jacket]

Santo's dives are kind of classical though. They're more elegant than someone like Mysterio.

[goc]

I think Dave must be reading this thread

 

[Loss]

I responded to that.

[overbooked]

I think I watch lucha through "lucha eyes".

 

But then again, I watch wrestling through "wrestling eyes". Pretty fundamental and universal stuff like irish whips, for example, look pretty absurd with a critical, non-wrestling eye.

 

And I watch different styles through different eyes too. I guess you could say I have a lot of eyes. If I'm watching a Southern tag I understand the context, the formula and the tropes involved, otherwise I'd just be annoyed by a referee incapable of turning around, a face on the apron who doesn't get interfering doesn't help etc etc.

 

Essentially, there isn't a universal formula or context for pro wrestling. However, if you've grown up on a particular style, or are more familiar with some kinds of wrestling than others, then it is easy to feel like every genre of wrestling should tick certain boxes.

 

Lucha is far more distinctive than most styles, so I think generally is quite difficult to engage with. It seems to inhabit its own "world" more than most styles. I also think one of the main joys of lucha is the sheer chaos and confusion within. Once I accepted, and then enjoyed, being bemused, confused and perplexed by lucha then it really clicked for me.

 

The random elements, the unpredictability, the inherently unhinged nature of the brawls, dives and wacky submissions is what makes it so exhilarating and fun to watch, but also in its own way a really satisfying challenge too. The lucha and jazz comparisons make sense, but I see lucha more like modernist literature - I don't always know what is going on, but that doesn't stop me enjoying it. And when I'm able to take something from it, it is far more satisfying that your bog-standard mainstream narrative where I can see where the strings are being pulled.

 

All of this makes lucha really tricky to engage with on a critical level. Let's go back to that Southern tag. It is such a standard, and easy to understand, narrative that it doesn't take a whole lot of skill and intelligence to break that sort of match down and see if it works. The style lends itself to that sort of analysis. Lucha is far more about the intangibles, about the feel, and ultimately about the confusion. I think to appreciate it takes a particular mindset, or more the willingness to give up on previous wrestling mindsets. I think to properly analyse it takes a very different set of tools than the tools we would use for most other wrestling criticism.

[JerryvonKramer]

Lucha is far more distinctive than most styles, so I think generally is quite difficult to engage with. It seems to inhabit its own "world" more than most styles. I also think one of the main joys of lucha is the sheer chaos and confusion within. Once I accepted, and then enjoyed, being bemused, confused and perplexed by lucha then it really clicked for me.

 

The random elements, the unpredictability, the inherently unhinged nature of the brawls, dives and wacky submissions is what makes it so exhilarating and fun to watch, but also in its own way a really satisfying challenge too. The lucha and jazz comparisons make sense, but I see lucha more like modernist literature - I don't always know what is going on, but that doesn't stop me enjoying it. And when I'm able to take something from it, it is far more satisfying that your bog-standard mainstream narrative where I can see where the strings are being pulled.

 

All of this makes lucha really tricky to engage with on a critical level.

Thanks for this post.

 

I'll be honest, you did the opposite of sell me. You've turned me off for life.

 

I play board games. The type I play are zero or minimal luck. Hardcore "euro games" as they are known. Strategy games. Resource management. That sort of thing. I sometimes joke that I hate "fun" games. I don't like chaos as a rule.

 

I also don't like dancing either.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x305cha

 

Virtually no aspect of what you described to me appeals on any level whatsoever. And I think I'm grateful that you've outlined it and made me see why.

[Grimmas]

Parv disliking dancing is the saddest and least shocking thing ever.

[elliott]

Parv disliking dancing is the saddest and least shocking thing ever.

 

"If you’re gonna have fun, if you wanna be yourself, you want to dance, man. A lot of people out here, a lot of people going around talking about grown men don’t dance and gangsters don’t dance, man I dance all day. If you feel good, and you wanna dance, dance. That’s what I like to do."

-Bobby Shmurda (aka the worst rapper ever who still happened to provide the greatest quote in history)

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/staying-young-and-getting-old-with-bobby-shmurda/

[elliott]

I still genuinely don't understand the idea that lucha is this super confusing impossible to understand style. I wish I could find a clip of the old Simpsons with the Power Plant softball league where Marge is video taping the game and giving commentary. "And now the one man throws the little ball and the other man swings the stick and hit the ball. Now he's running in that direction that the other men ran in sometimes. Now he's stopped. Now the first man has the ball again and is throwing it to another man."

 

That is all I can think of when I read about how people don't get it and it doesn't make sense.

 

It does make sense. It just makes sense within the Lucha Libre universe. Some of it is really great, some of it is really terrible, most of it is average. Different doesn't mean "worse" and it doesn't mean "incomprehensible."

[Grimmas]

Please explain how lucha is hard to understand? It's wrestling, people are trying to pin or submit their opponents.

[goc]

Count me in to the "I don't get what's so incomprehensible about lucha" crowd. Yea there is an adjustment period where you have to get used to the tropes when you first watching it but that's really not any different than if you'd never seen anything but WWE and started watching any other kind of wrestling. I've found it far more comparable to U.S. wrestling than Japan because lucha puts such an emphasis on characters while so much of Japan is about who is the tougher tough guy.

[elliott]

I always credit Mike Tenay during the When Worlds Collide show for helping me "get it" right away. Even though the undercard matches were all single falls, Tenay explained lucha is mostly 2/3 falls, mostly trios, and explained the captain's rule also. I've always seen the trios matches pointed to as the hardest things to understand. I think if you know about the captain's rule, it helps a lot in terms of understanding the finishes.

 

Why were all 3 wrestlers pinned to end this fall while only one wrestler was pinned to win this fall? I totally understand why that would be confusing. Completely. So, watching the WWC show and having that explained to me before I ever watched a standard lucha trios match, I knew what to expect. Or at least there weren't any surprises.

 

Also having things like the emphasis on fouls being explained or the automatic DQ for removing your opponents masks or piledriving guys were super helpful to know.

 

I think the singles matches are pretty straightforward and easy to understand once you familiarize yourself with the general working style.

 

I'm not trying to argue that everyone has to like lucha libre. Different strokes. I actually absolutely get certain criticisms and why they turn people off. I adore the tumbling mat work in trios but I can see how some people think it looks too choreographed and is a turn off. I get how people don't like how many trios matches just blow through the first 2 falls.

 

I also think the general presentation plays a part. If someone decides to start watching lucha for the first time and the video starts with 6 guys in masks they've never or barely seen before in these rings with corona advertisements all over them with a usually poorly mic'd crowd doing a lot of cooperative/choreographed mat work; I can totally see how that would be a turn off and come off as super confusing.

 

But it really does make sense. Lucha has certain patterns like every wrestling style and has a created a universe in which the stuff people talk about being goofy and non-sensical usually tends to make sense within their universe.

 

So yeah, I get not liking it. But it definitely makes sense.

[elliott]

Forgot I wanted to mention this. I do think the language barrier plays a role actually in Lucha more so than Japanese wrestling. Japanese wrestling was very much shaped by US wrestling from the very beginning whereas Lucha has been much more singular throughout it's existence. So Japanese wrestling is going to inherently be "easier to understand" than Lucha because Japanese wrestling grew out of US wrestling.

 

Also, you are much more likely to see angles occur in Lucha than in a New Japan or All Japan match. Obviously it is going to be more difficult to fully grasp a heel turn or a double cross or something if you aren't familiar with the style of wrestling or wrestlers themselves AND don't speak the language. Japanese wrestling has usually been framed as "it is all about the ring work." So that is what people focus on. There are stories, obviously in Japanese wrestling. But they are much more broad.

 

Also, I won't argue that I understand 100% of everything in lucha. I still don't really get something like the aftermath of the Santo Jr heel turn. I think he continued to get cheered because it is freaking Hijo del Santo and how the fuck could you boo him, but I'm not totally sure on that.

 

So we may not want to admit it because we are able to cross the Japanese language barrier when it comes to wrestling so easily, but I do think the language barrier plays a much bigger role for some when it comes to Lucha.

[goc]

Also, I won't argue that I understand 100% of everything in lucha. I still don't really get something like the aftermath of the Santo Jr heel turn. I think he continued to get cheered because it is freaking Hijo del Santo and how the fuck could you boo him, but I'm not totally sure on that.

 

I think it's part that and from the little I have seen of it, it didn't seem like Santo really did a whole lot to change his style to wrestle more "dirty."

 

And in the three way with Casas & Dandy I thought they really didn't do a smart job of laying out the match to get the crowd to boo Santo. I understand that Dandy & Casas would both want to go after him but when you're trying to turn the crowd against a big babyface like that, having him get beat up in a 2 on 1 situation is not smart booking.

[JerryvonKramer]

Please explain how lucha is hard to understand? It's wrestling, people are trying to pin or submit their opponents.

Sudden and sometimes inexplicable pinfalls

Dive trains

Matches just ending when I didn't even realise there'd been a finish

General sense of chaos

Loads of guys in masks

Seemingly random high flying spots / planchas

 

I can't watch the trios matches really.

 

One on one is easier to get a grip of but I often find it really hard just to follow the basic thread of a match. And often once I think I've found my footing, the damn thing just ends and I'm rewinding "uh what was the finish again?"

 

But if what overbooked wrote is generally true of lucha, and it really is all about embracing the chaos and turning your critical brain off and just feeling it, it's never ever going to be my scene.

[goc]

I don't know why you would ever rewind to see a finish of a fall in lucha considering how they replay that stuff for you.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't know why you would ever rewind to see a finish of a fall in lucha considering how they replay that stuff for you.

 

I think that presentational style is part of it and adds to the confusion actually. The replays and so on in the middle of matches serve to compound the sense of "I literally don't have a fucking clue what's happening here".

 

I do not get that feeling with any other pro wrestling, including shoot style, which I can follow easy enough but just don't like.

[Grimmas]

 

I don't know why you would ever rewind to see a finish of a fall in lucha considering how they replay that stuff for you.

I think that presentational style is part of it and adds to the confusion actually. The replays and so on in the middle of matches serve to compound the sense of "I literally don't have a fucking clue what's happening here".

 

I do not get that feeling with any other pro wrestling, including shoot style, which I can follow easy enough but just don't like.

 

Have you ever seen the whole show of When Worlds Collide, like Elliot suggested?

[goc]

 

I don't know why you would ever rewind to see a finish of a fall in lucha considering how they replay that stuff for you.

I think that presentational style is part of it and adds to the confusion actually. The replays and so on in the middle of matches serve to compound the sense of "I literally don't have a fucking clue what's happening here".

 

I do not get that feeling with any other pro wrestling, including shoot style, which I can follow easy enough but just don't like.

 

I really don't understand what's confusing about that. They are 2 out 3 falls matches, they show replays in between the falls (and they are clearly marked as replays with that flashing R in the corner) during the "rest period." Is that any more confusing than Portland having long breaks between falls where guys who were still in the middle of the match might cut promos?

[Dylan Waco]

I actually find lucha more entertaining to watch on a critical level because of the ways in which it is distinct. To me I have to turn off my brain far more to enjoy something like certain 90's AJPW matches because I can't shake the feeling that a lot of the bomb throwing and placement of big spots would be brutally eviscerated by it's biggest supporters (and perhaps even myself) if the exact same things were happening in say a U.S. indie match.

 

To me lucha is a style about escalation. The best lucha bouts - and this goes for title matches, trios, and stakes matches - are matches that take advantage of the lucha tropes to build to the biggest moments. I think the 2/3 falls enhances this, and the dive trains work in this context too both as transitions and moments when the matches really kick into another gear and/or reach their peak depending on the build of the match. Even things like the three-on-one rudo beatdowns I feel are usually designed to enable a spectacular technico comeback. The best lucha matches have an internal logic to them between falls, though it's less obvious than "here's some limbwork, sell it later," so I can see how this wouldn't be immediately obvious someone overwhelmed by the site of a bunch of masked guys hitting the mat.

 

I've said this before but I actually love the fact that any spot in lucha can be a finish and that submissions are treated as fatalities when they are truly sunk in. I'm not going to sit here and argue that I find lucha more realistic than other sorts of wrestling (though I don't find it inherently less realistic), but I do think near falls in lucha almost always mean more, especially in the third fall of title matches.

 

I will say that I do think lucha is probably a lost cause for Parv. To me the way he speaks about it ("general sense of chaos") is not exactly something that lends itself to being understood, even if he genuinely wants to. Japanese wrestling is to a large degree a byproduct of American cultural imperialism, whereas lucha is it's own form that I guess some people will never "get." Even though I used to fall into that camp I really don't want to concede that point, but I guess I have to.

[Jimmy Redman]

Lucha is curious in that it is both a chaotic blur and also highly structured at the same time. Most matches tend to follow the same 2/3 falls, rudo beatdown-big tecnico comeback-nearfall stretch structure, to the point where people complain that it's too formulaic. You have falls that are choreographed in the extreme with two or three guys all being beaten within seconds of each other.

 

And yet at the same time, there is such a feeling of chaos to it, something wild and...fluid. A lucha match progresses like waves, crashing upon one another when the rudos are beating guys down over and over and over, and then the tide turns and the tecnicos start flying around with beautiful dives and the waves are still violent but they're also a little smoother, a little more peaceful.

 

There's something ethereal about it, something musical, that's so hard to pin down and analyse in the way we traditionally do. The structure and the falls and the patterns are all there as the framework, and then all of the moves and dives and punches and swings and stretches and moments not only fill in the framework but blow right past it as well. Like taking a piece of lined paper, all neat and ruled out, and then throwing cans of paint at it.

[Matt D]

I'm confident that if I could go to the UK and had two hours to watch Lucha with Parv, I could get him over the hump.

[ohtani's jacket]

Trios wrestling is completely formulaic. The chaotic elements of lucha involve the haphazard booking. If you do the legwork there is nothing confusing about lucha trios matches.

[cubbymark]

Trios matches are much less confusing than WWE booking these days.