Steenalized Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I'm going to be the asshole here. I have a problem with all the intergender matches. It bothers me when a guy sells for a woman. It bothers me that a woman got 2 seperate 2 counts in a main event against Mil Muertes, who they spent season 1 building to their version of the Undertaker. That all bothers me. The opening vinegettes were cool, and the post main event angle was awesome. But the main event and the 3 way were logic defying drizzling shits. And I wasn't wild about the opener either.... I'm with you on basically all of this. And I get what Grimmas is saying, and it's true, but I hate the new trope of MMA moves = super effective in wrestling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 How do you feel about the trope of MMA moves are super effective in real life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 That's not a trope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 How do you feel about the trope of MMA moves are super effective in real life? Please expand upon that? Â Of course MMA moves are effective in real life, they work in real fights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Is Ivelisse that much smaller than Jack Evans? If people think Mil should be completely invincible that's one thing, but I don't think there would be as much complaining if Evans got a nearfall on the big guy either. And anyway, the crowd bought it. She was also laying in chops and kicks before Son of Havoc would outmuscle her and ate huge offense during the match like that knee in the corner. So if she can take that legit and come back what was so unbelievable about the match compared to normal LU flippity flop shit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Some people can suspend their disbelief in a male vs female match. Others can't. LU generally makes it something I don't find preposterous job training context of their world, but haven't seen the mil/ivelisse match yet so can't comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Please expand upon that? Of course MMA moves are effective in real life, they work in real fights. Â Â Â That's exactly my point as in it's just a fact of life so why would someone take issue with it being pushed as fact in a wrestling context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Â Please expand upon that? Of course MMA moves are effective in real life, they work in real fights. Â Â Â That's exactly my point as in it's just a fact of life so why would someone take issue with it being pushed as fact in a wrestling context? Â No idea, that's silly. If you accept an Irish whip than you have to accept a triangle choke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Given this is a show where characters die and/or we can see into people's dreams, you have a problem with intergender matches...why, again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Given this is a show where characters die and/or we can see into people's dreams, you have a problem with intergender matches...why, again? Real life dragons too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dragon Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I will also cite the increasingly common "Lucha Underground is wrestling's Mortal Kombat" description, I'd point to you that in LU is disconnected enough enough from the real world that the idea that a badass fighting woman can use her intelligence and an over confident monster to get some good hope spots in as completely reasonable. She got her ass kicked, and her moves were set off Mil making mistakes. Â This wasn't a Sexy Star match like from last season which insulted your intelligence and made you want her off screen. This was about as well done as you could ask for it to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dragon Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Â Given this is a show where characters die and/or we can see into people's dreams, you have a problem with intergender matches...why, again? Real life dragons too. Â Â And a guy who is an alien... or spaceship? Or whatever Aerostar is. Also, Giant Cannibal Monster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Â Â Please expand upon that? Of course MMA moves are effective in real life, they work in real fights. Â Â Â That's exactly my point as in it's just a fact of life so why would someone take issue with it being pushed as fact in a wrestling context? Â No idea, that's silly. If you accept an Irish whip than you have to accept a triangle choke. Â MMA submissions are fine in pro wrestling, but too often I see them as an instant tap out or some sort of credibility builder, that's what bothers me. For the former, it implies that anyone with a baseline of MMA training should be able to beat pro wrestlers in pro wrestling. For the latter, basically the same issue, the implication that MMA is on another level above pro wrestling and if you train in MMA then pro wrestling will be easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Â MMA submissions are fine in pro wrestling, but too often I see them as an instant tap out or some sort of credibility builder, that's what bothers me. For the former, it implies that anyone with a baseline of MMA training should be able to beat pro wrestlers in pro wrestling. For the latter, basically the same issue, the implication that MMA is on another level above pro wrestling and if you train in MMA then pro wrestling will be easy. Â Â Â I can see why you would have an issue with that but the problem is that in MMA it is shown that these holds are instant tap outs so if they aren't treated the same it wrestling to a casual audience that will be seen as phony. The real problem isn't the way the hold are treated but the way the matches are worked if you watch any of the Kyle O'Reilly vs Adam Cole they do a good job of showing how "pro-wrestling" style can be used to combat MMA style and not look like if you know any jujitsu you'll make short work of any wrestler but, unfortunately it's not always done so well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I'm still way behind, but from the sounds of it, I'd be happier if they established that Ivelisse had been bathed by cosmic rays while riding down Route 66 and they gave her slight levels of super strength and hyper-reflexes or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 It was a good episode actually but, it would have been nice if Ivelisse had some type of mech armor that she used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Is Ivelisse that much smaller than Jack Evans? If people think Mil should be completely invincible that's one thing, but I don't think there would be as much complaining if Evans got a nearfall on the big guy either. And anyway, the crowd bought it. She was also laying in chops and kicks before Son of Havoc would outmuscle her and ate huge offense during the match like that knee in the corner. So if she can take that legit and come back what was so unbelievable about the match compared to normal LU flippity flop shit? I would complain if Jack Evans got any offense in on Mil. Not just because of the size difference but because of who they are... its Jack Evans and Mil Muetes... I have no problem with Muertes selling for 5'8" Pentagon Jr. because Pentagon Jr. is built as bad, bad, man. Â And as for the MMA in a real fight thing... Who has seen a real fight where some untrained guy tried to pull off an armbar or pull guard or some thing and got wrecked? Its hilarious. As for MMA/ catch moves in pro wrestling, if a wrestler can actually shoot or at least can present himself as a shooter it works. The rest of the time it just looks really sloppy to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Just watched, and I had absolutely forgotten how much I love this show. Mil-Ivelisse is completely preposterous, but they put it that match together so smartly that it worked in this world. Really incredible how this feels like a TV show with wrestling matches rather than a wrestling show. Cannot wait for next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 And as for the MMA in a real fight thing... Who has seen a real fight where some untrained guy tried to pull off an armbar or pull guard or some thing and got wrecked? Its hilarious. As for MMA/ catch moves in pro wrestling, if a wrestler can actually shoot or at least can present himself as a shooter it works. The rest of the time it just looks really sloppy to me. I partially agree with this, but there's other guys who've never been portrayed as shooters and they pull this off really well. DBryan is one of the best I've seen incorporating real grappling skills into the wrestling world. Â The Gracies for example did horribly the couple of times I saw them in New Japan. Â Back to Lucha Underground, Jim Cornette seemed to be overly critical of it: Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 I'm probably one of the bigger critics of intergender wrestling around, but I thought the main event was brilliant. To me it didn't come across as Mil looking vulnerable against a weakling opponent, but rather an opponent having the absolute night of her life where everything was clicking perfectly, and still losing definitively to the most bad ass guy in the room. The match made you hope, and maybe even for flashes made you believe, but at no point did I think she was badder or better than Muertes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Breaking News! Jim Cornette, the same guy who booked the Wrestling Mummy and pines for the days of bears being brought out as special attractions, has a problem with a modern product! Â For fuck's sake, I'm not a fan of LU for a lot of the same reasons, but Corny has to be second only to Russo in terms of a lack of self awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eegah Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Cornette is great when he's just talking history and a fan but when it comes to being critical of anything he is insufferable. New episode was fantastic, the show is so great with the presentation and the way it is shot. Matches weren't great but highly enjoyable and moving along story lines and table setting. Dario is great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016  And as for the MMA in a real fight thing... Who has seen a real fight where some untrained guy tried to pull off an armbar or pull guard or some thing and got wrecked? Its hilarious. As for MMA/ catch moves in pro wrestling, if a wrestler can actually shoot or at least can present himself as a shooter it works. The rest of the time it just looks really sloppy to me.  I partially agree with this, but there's other guys who've never been portrayed as shooters and they pull this off really well. DBryan is one of the best I've seen incorporating real grappling skills into the wrestling world. The Gracies for example did horribly the couple of times I saw them in New Japan. Back to Lucha Underground, Jim Cornette seemed to be overly critical of it:  Isn't everyone bored of the histrionic Cornette routine at this point?  Lucha Underground is great because it's not afraid to do something different and completely own it's silliness. That's what makes it refreshing. Talk about just not getting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Also, while I didn't love it as much as most of you, I did find it to be an enjoyable hour of TV and I am a big, big fan of their presentation. It feels so completely fresh and different than WWE, ROH, TNA, or any other wrestling out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 I doubt too many people were still on the Cornette bandwagon anyway after his racist tirade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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