Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Soko]

A bit surprised Lesnar is still in the running. I love watching the guy but is there really enough high-end stuff to merit him landing in the top 60?

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I agree that Lesnar should be in the top 100, but he's going to finish way too high.

[GOTNW]

A bit surprised Lesnar is still in the running. I love watching the guy but is there really enough high-end stuff to merit him landing in the top 60?

Lesnar benefits from several things:

1)WWE

2)recency bias

3)uniqueness

 

I didn't rank him. The long term damage of having him work versus Angle is showing now.

[El McKell]

 

The short answer for why I considered Volk Han is that even though I don't like shoot style at all I felt he had other people's best matches that I saw: Tamura, Maeda, Kopylov, Kohsaka and possibly others that I can't recall. This led me to believe that even though Han's matches weren't that good he must be doing something right because they're consistently much more enjoyable than almost all the other stuff in the same style.

 

Ok, makes sense. But not liking shoot-style makes me sad.

 

At least I tried

[Cap]

I have Casas over someone I never thought would move from his spot.

 

Every match is such a joy. I watched this yesterday (excuse the 1.5 speed and note that I am taking life and limb in hand by posting it because it may freeze my account here).

 

 

Look at that use of the cameraman.

 

Just a random match lost to the annals of time and look at that! You find stuff like that in almost any Casas match from almost any era.

That is incredible. I love Casas. There are very few people who are just more entertaining, who "get" how to elevate whatever match they are in, wherever they are on a card, whatever context... he just gives it a little extra in almost every case.

[Matt D]

 

A bit surprised Lesnar is still in the running. I love watching the guy but is there really enough high-end stuff to merit him landing in the top 60?

Lesnar benefits from several things:

1)WWE

2)recency bias

3)uniqueness

 

I didn't rank him. The long term damage of having him work versus Angle is showing now.

 

He makes people feel something in an age where it's hard for people to feel anything. He feels special in a world where nothing else does. That says a hell of a lot more about the world than it does about him.

 

He certainly didn't make my list.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

A bit surprised Lesnar is still in the running. I love watching the guy but is there really enough high-end stuff to merit him landing in the top 60?

Lesnar benefits from several things:

1)WWE

2)recency bias

3)uniqueness

 

I didn't rank him. The long term damage of having him work versus Angle is showing now.

 

He makes people feel something in an age where it's hard for people to feel anything. He feels special in a world where nothing else does. That says a hell of a lot more about the world than it does about him.

 

He certainly didn't make my list.

 

 

I think that's way off base. Lesnar was very different and had a completely unique presence and aura about him from day one. Renewed, yet different, upon returning in '12 after his UFC stint, but attributing that to the current environment disregards what a freak he was on the first go round. Absolutely never felt like one of the pack, even when they tried to make that happen through booking.

[Matt D]

I'm much higher on Lesnar's first run than his second one.

[Childs]

I thought it was fitting that Han and Tamura were so close but fascinating that they got there by different means. Han appeared on significantly more ballots but was regarded as the inferior worker by those who likely voted for both of them.

[Childs]

I am also now officially sorry that I voted for Lesnar. He does not need to be this high, and I could've helped any number of comparable workers who didn't get enough love.

[Childs]

The long term damage of having him work versus Angle is showing now.

 

 

Really? How? That seems like a huge stretch of reasoning given that he hasn't worked Kurt in 13 years.

[cad]

The best part of the Casas vs Panterita program

[The Man in Blak]

Post-UFC Brock Lesnar has been one of the most advantaged workers in history. If you spent multiple posts decrying the inclusion of the Undertaker because of how protected he was under the gimmick, my eyebrows are going to start escalating if I see you stumping for Lesnar, especially at a Top 50 level (which is where it looks like he could very well land).

[Childs]

I think Owen was in some ways the best Hart brother, but I can't think of a better example of the difference between the terms "best" and "greatest" than in comparing Owen and Bret.

 

Where did you have Owen? I think that somehow, in our sleep-deprived state, we didn't talk about him.

[GOTNW]

 

 

The long term damage of having him work versus Angle is showing now.

 

Really? How? That seems like a huge stretch of reasoning given that he hasn't worked Kurt in 13 years.

He worked him in IGF in 2007 but w/e. I think it's pretty obvious how it influenced him and his current gimmick. How is Lesnar doing a million suplexes and finishers different than Angle doing so?

[JRGoldman]

I ranked Han but not Tamura. I don't really care for shoot style. Truthfully, I think the limited amount that Han worked had something to do with me ranking him. Everything I saw him in he looked good. Tamura had things I didn't particularly care for at times. It seemed wrong not to rank Han if I could honestly say that he probably has the highest "good match ratio" of anyone I've ever seen. So the vote wasn't necessarily a statement about who I think is better at the shoot style, but instead a tip of the cap to note that I think Han's career is exceptional in some way, and thus he deserves credit in a project like this.

[Matt D]

The best part of the Casas vs Panterita program

 

Sometimes I wonder if I ranked Casas low. Which is almost impossible. Almost.

[Goodear]

I don't really get shoot style. Now that MMA is an actual thing that everyone has seen, I can't get past the inaccuracies from actual fights. Like the Tamura-Vader match I saw seemed more unrealistic because Vader wouldn't check leg kicks and Tamura wouldn't just keep annihilating the limb. That the match finished with a powerbomb was the icing on the cake for me. I don't know, its almost uncanny valley up ins as its closer to real fights than most wrestling but its so close that its jarring that its not 100% what you would see at UFC 1,382.

[Childs]

 

 

The long term damage of having him work versus Angle is showing now.

 

Really? How? That seems like a huge stretch of reasoning given that he hasn't worked Kurt in 13 years.

He worked him in IGF in 2007 but w/e. I think it's pretty obvious how it influenced him and his current gimmick. How is Lesnar doing a million suplexes and finishers different than Angle doing so?

 

I just think it's a stretch to cite Angle as the driving influence, given that Brock didn't work that way immediately after being paired with Kurt and didn't work that way right after he came back. I blame it more on the WWE branding machine and the "Suplex City" bullshit than I do on Angle. And I'm happy to blame Angle for things.

[Danish Dynamite]

I am also now officially sorry that I voted for Lesnar. He does not need to be this high, and I could've helped any number of comparable workers who didn't get enough love.

 

Almost there with you... I only have two complaints about Brock (works too few matches and the overuse of suplexes (even though suplexes are fucking cool)), but my vote could have been used for somene who needed it more (and deserved it as much).

[cubbymark]

 

 

Sometimes I wonder if I ranked Casas low. Which is almost impossible. Almost.

Did you rank Casas over Bockwinkel?

[Matt D]

I said almost!

[Danish Dynamite]

I don't really get shoot style. Now that MMA is an actual thing that everyone has seen, I can't get past the inaccuracies from actual fights. Like the Tamura-Vader match I saw seemed more unrealistic because Vader wouldn't check leg kicks and Tamura wouldn't just keep annihilating the limb. That the match finished with a powerbomb was the icing on the cake for me. I don't know, its almost uncanny valley up ins as its closer to real fights than most wrestling but its so close that its jarring that its not 100% what you would see at UFC 1,382.

 

I've had the same thought, and I agree with you. To me wrestling is storytelling, character work, entertainment, ring psychology and, yes, impressive in ring skills (which can be a number of different things). But it's not about making me believe it's "real" any more than movies are. I intentionally go along with the illusion. And I just loose too many of the aspects I like about wrestling, when shoot tries to make it feel real, even though I'm still very much aware that it isn't... Do or do not, as the little green man said... It's great that others love shoot, but I think this is what comes closest to explaining to me, why I often find shoot boring and why it just doesn't engage me. I won't stop giving it chances though, as I will still try to see the stuff people here are recommending.

[El-P]

I love shoot-style. I don't give a fuck about MMA. I'm a pro-wrestling fan.

 

For those who don't care about shoot-syle per say, just watch Takada. He's as pro-style driven as anyone in this game. Tamura is for purists only.

[Danish Dynamite]

I love shoot-style. I don't give a fuck about MMA. I'm a pro-wrestling fan.

 

And I hear that from a lot of guys whose oppinions I respect. (And I don't care for MMA at all either). But when trying to make any more sense of why I have such a hard time getting in to shoot, other than just saying "I feel bored", this explanation is pretty much the best I can come up with.

 

Maybe some day I'll see the light and come join you on the shoot-side of life :-)