Your most "Against The Grain" opinion on wrestling

[supremebve]

 

He uses a translator to make sure he controls his message.

 

There's a paradox lying somewhere though. You don't control a translation and there's always the risk of something being lost in it. If you're fluent, it means you're able to pass whatever message you want to with the upmost precision. If not, then you're simply not fluent. Hell, I don't consider myself *fluent* in English. So yeah. Then again, sports men... well.

 

From what I understand he speaks English to the press all the time, off the record, but uses a translator for everything on the record. Tim Kurkjian, who is pretty much THE baseball reporter these days, says that Ichiro is fluent and speaks English as well as anyone in baseball.

[GOTNW]

Why is it so unsurprising some prefer a world where hivemind rules and nothing interesting is ever discussed. There isn't going to be a consensus on ANYTHING if enough people watch it and share their thoughts on it. That there are still so many sacred cows in wrestling shows just how far wrestling criticism is from being taken seriously.

[...TG]

Why is it so unsurprising some prefer a world where hivemind rules and nothing interesting is ever discussed. There isn't going to be a consensus on ANYTHING if enough people watch it and share their thoughts on it. That there are still so many sacred cows in wrestling shows just how far wrestling criticism is from being taken seriously.

"Sacred cows in wrestling" is a thread I'd like to see.

[JerryvonKramer]

Why is it so unsurprising some prefer a world where hivemind rules and nothing interesting is ever discussed. There isn't going to be a consensus on ANYTHING if enough people watch it and share their thoughts on it. That there are still so many sacred cows in wrestling shows just how far wrestling criticism is from being taken seriously.

Wrestling criticism will never be taken seriously if it allows for such egregious views as "Bobby Eaton is overrated" or "RVD is actually good" to be stated in the open without fear of reproach or ridicule. If we have reached that stage, something has gone very wrong. Well not on my watch, One-punch boy.

[goc]

 

Why is it so unsurprising some prefer a world where hivemind rules and nothing interesting is ever discussed. There isn't going to be a consensus on ANYTHING if enough people watch it and share their thoughts on it. That there are still so many sacred cows in wrestling shows just how far wrestling criticism is from being taken seriously.

Wrestling criticism will never be taken seriously if it allows for such egregious views as "Bobby Eaton is overrated" or "RVD is actually good" to be stated in the open without fear of reproach or ridicule. If we have reached that stage, something has gone very wrong. Well not on my watch, One-punch boy.

 

[NintendoLogic]

Wresting criticism isn't taken seriously because wrestling doesn't reward serious analysis. It's an attempt to intellectualize something that fundamentally isn't intellectual. Even the most cerebral wrestling is still about 90 percent visceral. Putting too much thought into it leads to making mountains out of molehills and bending over backwards to see things that aren't really there.

[JerryvonKramer]

GOTNW's staggering contempt for good US wrestling of the 1980s should rightly be treated with disdain and stamped on until he is made to see sense.

 

No theoretical school in history has been able to establish itself first as a heterodoxy, before that one needs orthodoxy with a long period of gestation. Maybe when he reaches the age of 78, when the positions are so ingrained that the grandchildren of current posters are mouthing them by rote, we might -- maybe -- get to the point where we can start questioning the primacy of 80s US wrestling, or adopting positions contrary to the idea that Bobby Eaton is a brilliant, all-time worker. Until that day, his position must be treated with the special disdain that the Ancients reserved for the Epicureans, which united even the Stoics and Academic Sceptics.

[joeg]

Gordi and Daniel from the old puroresu.tv board both live/ have lived in Japan if they are around these parts to contribute. I'll throw in my two cents. I took 2 years of Japanese back in high school because I loved puroresu so much. It was easily the hardest course I've ever taken. Harder than anything I had to do in college. I can speak some basic phrases but and read some kanji and hiragana but that's about it. It always seemed to me that the foreign exchange students I met who came from Japan picked up English a lot easier than I picked up Japanese . They loved Bob Sapp, Nayoa Ogawa and Akebono. Were huge fans of Pride and K1. However most of them weren't so much fans of puroresu.

[Matt D]

Let's take a look at what Zenjo said:

 

 

Bobby Eaton is crazily overrated in these parts. Somewhere along the line he seems to have become the poster boy for 'Smarks appreciating the underappreciated' and it's gotten totally out of control. Someone who was never a star, never a draw and not an influence being voted the 28th greatest wrestler in history is lunacy. I wouldn't even call him a worker who stands out from the crowd.

 

So he didn't give us a lot to work with here. I think any opinion can be explored so long as it's backed up. "Someone who was never a star, never a draw, and not an influence" and not "a worker who stands out from the crowd."

 

Really, the "star, draw, influence" things, whether true or not, are not major things people voted for in GWE (some voted for all of those but I would think they were a minority). Then, not standing out is a particularly frustrating argument because it's not saying what he does poorly, just implying that he didn't do anything particularly well. It shifts the onus back on the people defending him, sort of from ground zero.

[Microstatistics]

GOTNW's staggering contempt for good US wrestling of the 1980s should rightly be treated with disdain and stamped on until he is made to see sense.

 

 

 

Wait why is not liking 80's US wrestling not acceptable but outright dismissing lucha libre fine?

[GOTNW]

Parv has turned into a charicature of himself more than anyone shitposting on twitter at this point.

 

Wrestling criticism will never be taken seriously if it allows for such egregious views as

Hivemind hivemind hivemind hivemind hivemind hivemind hivemind hivemind. You must like what we like otherwise your opinion is shit is precisely the kind of bullshit that's everything wrong with this. You're no better than Meltzer dudebro parrots that troll anyone who doesn't agree with their high sparrow into oblivion.

 

No theoretical school in history has been able to establish itself first as a heterodoxy, before that one needs orthodoxy with a long period of gestation. Maybe when he reaches the age of 78, when the positions are so ingrained that the grandchildren of current posters are mouthing them by rote, we might -- maybe -- get to the point where we can start questioning the primacy of 80s US wrestling, or adopting position contrary to the idea that Bobby Eaton is a brilliant, all-time worker. Until that day, his position must be treated with the special disdain that the Ancients reserved for the Epicureans, which united even the Stoics and Academic Sceptics.

The orthodox view is that Shawn Michaels is the greatest wrestler of all time. If you want to see the orthodox view on wrestling you conduct a poll at wrestlingforum or reddit. Some of us are more interested in diving into wrestling a little deeper, but I guess it's much easier to say "I don't understand this" and convert that opinion to "this is shit and not nearly as the stuff I grew up on or those Ted Dibiase matches that happened when I was two". That's basically your stance anyway. You hate wrestling before your time and wrestling after your time.

[The Thread Killer]

Wrestling criticism will never be taken seriously if it allows for such egregious views as "Bobby Eaton is overrated" or "RVD is actually good" to be stated in the open without fear of reproach or ridicule. If we have reached that stage, something has gone very wrong. Well not on my watch, One-punch boy.

I respect Bobby Eaton, but I can see how some people think he might be over-praised.

 

I enjoy RVD in the same way I enjoy Bruiser Brody, Abdullah The Butcher and Sabu. Fun to watch in the right circumstances, enjoyable...but that doesn't make them "good." It's like watching a stupid "popcorn" movie that you have fun watching. That doesn't mean it's an all time great or it should win an Academy Award.

[goc]

 

GOTNW's staggering contempt for good US wrestling of the 1980s should rightly be treated with disdain and stamped on until he is made to see sense.

 

 

 

Wait why is not liking 80's US wrestling not acceptable but outright dismissing lucha libre fine?

 

Because the number of people who have written about how great 80s wrestling is is much greater than the number of people who write about the "lesser form" that is lucha libre.

[JerryvonKramer]

This exchange has gone some way to proving that GOTNW doesn't understand basic heel psychology.

[joeg]

And I won't appologize for being an RVD fan. I was 13 or 14 when ECW started airing in my area. It was my first exposure to anything nonWWF non WCW. It's why I'm a Taz fan too. I feel like had I never flipped to ECW on some channel buried deep in my cable package at 1 in the morning I never would have been exposed to any wrestling other than WWF and WCW. My fandom of RVD is not logical at all. He had that aura . I guess the closest guy to it now would be Pentagon Jr. Where he's just booked like the baddest man on the planet despite being in some rinky dink promotion. My love for RVD is like my love for Tommy Boy. I know Tommy Boy is a shitty movie that has no plot and the jokes are corny. But I won't let myself admit that on an emotional level because that movie was my favorite for such a large part of my childhood. I will defend my love of RVD matches and Chris Farley movies to the death.

[goc]

And here is another legitimate post from me for this thread: I don't understand the praise of stiffness in wrestling. I mean there really isn't a whole lot of skill involved in legitimately hitting a guy really hard in the face with your forearm. Or chopping a guy hard as shit to where you break the skin.

There's a whole lot more skill in being someone like Jose Lothario or Jerry Lawler who can throw a worked punch that looks like it's killing a guy but probably barely even grazes them. I mean the whole point of wrestling is to create the ILLUSION of hurting your opponent, not to actually do it.

 

 

 

This exchange has gone some way to proving that GOTNW doesn't understand basic heel psychology.

 

You've managed to parody yourself even better than I did with Lord Alfred Hayes, well done.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well, the place was getting a bit dull. Needs a shake up.

[GOTNW]

"I miss the old PWO, back when jdw talked about whom he liked to jack off to" he says as he takes the cheap count-out.

 

And here is another legitimate post from me for this thread: I don't understand the praise of stiffness in wrestling. I mean there really isn't a whole lot of skill involved in legitimately hitting a guy really hard in the face with your forearm. Or chopping a guy hard as shit to where you break the skin.

 

There's a whole lot more skill in being someone like Jose Lothario or Jerry Lawler who can throw a worked punch that looks like it's killing a guy but probably barely even grazes them. I mean the whole point of wrestling is to create the ILLUSION of hurting your opponent, not to actually do it.

As long as it looks good how they get there is up to the workers. Besides having stiff and/or good looking strikes isn't nearly as important as knowing how ot use them anyway.

[Matt D]

I know it's not 2017 yet, but I'm kind of ready to talk about this stuff more, to be honest.

 

Sorry Steven. Its not about logic to me. Logic is a tool. Selling is a tool. Spots are tools. Physical ability is a tool. Blood is a tool. Stiffness is a tool. Jim Cornette at ringside is a tool.

 

Working smart is using the tools on the table efficiently and effectively to maximize the potential meaning of everything that happens in the ring.

 

I would add "in order to achieve a specific purpose" at the end of that sentence (or "in order to create a greater whole" works as well, or hey, "in order to achieve a specific purpose and to best build to a greater whole"), but that's something I'm still working out and I can see if other people care about that less.

 

And if anyone wants to get more clarification, ask me in 2017. I'm good for now.

 

[El-P]

There's a whole lot more skill in being someone like Jose Lothario or Jerry Lawler who can throw a worked punch that looks like it's killing a guy but probably barely even grazes them. I mean the whole point of wrestling is to create the ILLUSION of hurting your opponent, not to actually do it.

 

The best quote about that is Rick Martel talking about stupid Booker T giving him a concussion. "You have to convince the audience, you don't have to convince me." Then again, it's more about bieng reckless (and sloppy) than stiff here. Still, it's a great quote.

 

Then, there are difference of approach. Mid-South & Texas were snug territories, to keep it US based. Japan has its own culture about stiffness, and all in all it's not more ridiculous than say, luchadors doing stupid little slaps on the chest and doing ridiculous basic sequences that look 100% collaborations.

 

Plus, working stiff doesn't mean working dangerous. When it's done right. Good worker can work stiff and be safe.

 

Then again, looking like it hurts when it doesn't is an artform. Great punches are a lost art, kinda. I love great worked punches. Lawler's are a thing of beauty. Then again, if you're going back to an era when kayfabe prevaled, Lawler throwing a hundred punches to the face of his opponent in one single match was stupid as fuck since there was obviously no bruise on the opponent's face in the end. There's a reason why closed fists were forbidden in pro-wrestling. A heel throwing one in the back of the ref was much better work than Lawler regular punch barrage (which is one reason I'll never suscribe to the Lawler = great worker argument, this and the no-sell comebacks as a babyface). Then again, in the modern era, seemingly everyone throws a hundred punches a match, and I wish they'd look like Lawler's.

 

If I were a worker, I'd rather work with Lance Storm than Toshiaki Kawada. As a fan, I'd rather watch Hashimoto than RVD, both of whom were "stiff", one in a great worker way, the other in a reckless, stupid and dangerous way.

 

Apparently, Meng could be light as a feather and you could simply not feel him at all. He could also throw mean chops. But a crowbar would just hit hard because he doesn't know any other way. Then again, Terry Funk's answer to Mick Foley when Foley asks him about his punches was that he pretty much laid them in.

 

So there. Not one answer. Stiffness is just like everything else in pro-wrestling. It can be great. It can be stupid. It can be safe. It can be dangerous.

[JerryvonKramer]

The reason stiffness is mostly awesome:

 

[goc]

That's stupid. Why would you just stand there and let a guy play patty cake on your chest?

[El-P]

Uh, yeah. I love Kobashi, but really this isn't a reason why he's been great, at all. That being said, the Kojima version is infinitely worse.

[Matt D]

My point is this: Nothing in wrestling, including stiffness, is great simply for the sake of itself except for maybe lucha mascots.

 

[Ricky Jackson]

I hope this means the GWE hangover has finally passed