Your most "Against The Grain" opinion on wrestling

[ohtani's jacket]

Crap.

[artDDP]

 

Am I alone in not liking Mauro Ranallo? I mean, sure, he's more lively than the sea of WWE Announcerbot clones but his run on SD has not been impressive IMO. He seems better on the CWC shows so maybe it's just him being overproduced but he comes off as forced and/or a guy who did a ton of redbull and espresso shots before the show.

 

It seems like wherever I go as a fan, Mauro Ranallo haunts me. He was the play-by-play guy when Stampede briefly had their comeback on A Channel here in Canada. Then he shows up during the dying days of PRIDE. Then he's on The Fight Network calling all sorts of stuff, including Japanese wrestling, so if I want to see Puro with English commentary, it's got to be him. Now I start watching WWE for the first time in 15 years, and there he is on Smackdown.

 

My issue with him has always been that he comes across like he's trying too hard and is trying to beat you over the head with how smart he is, or more accurately, how smart he thinks he is. He has to use the long form name for every move executed, and give you a bio of who invented the move, or perfected it. Then he has to try and be clever and throw out his wordplay and wannabe Howard Cosell descriptions of the action. In some ways, he reminds me of all of the things I hated about Matt Striker. I can appreciate it when the commentator knows a lot, but when it seems like they're trying to beat you over the head with it, it grates on the nerves.

 

He's better in WWE than Michael Cole or a guy like Byron Saxton would be, but that is damning him with faint praise. For my money, Tom Phillips and Corey Graves are the best broadcast team in WWE, hands down.

 

 

Mauro sucks for the reasons TKK noted. I figure Dave adores him because he called MMA and he just loves anyone who was in any way mildly connected with MMA.

 

He tries way, way too hard to work his pop culture references into his WWE commentary. Still, I'd rather hear him call NJPW than Jim Ross.

[NintendoLogic]

RVD's finest moment. Sean Oliver's reaction never fail to crack me up.

 

 

Am I missing something? None of the things Shawn said sound objectionable to me. It seems to me that RVD is reading too much into things.

 

 

 

The mat-based stuff that NintendoLogic was referring to has more semblance to a real fight (or sport) than Michinoku Pro.

 

I disagree. A lot of it feels like a glorified exhibition.

 

So what does a non-exhibition style look like? What kind of standard bearer are you talking about?

 

 

I've gone on record as to the kinds of wrestling I like plenty of times. If you mean specifically within WoS, I already mentioned Rudge and Jones.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm talking about what looks like a real fight. Does it mean a brawl or something that looks like actual wrestling? Or something that's less co-operative looking or choreographed or rehearsed?

[Migs]

RVD was the most carryable awful worker (meaning his attributes could be mixed to get a spectacular match if you found the way like Jerry Lynn, Tracy Smothers or later Bob Holly did) , but an awful worker nonetheless. By the end of my ECW watch, I couldn't handle watching a minute of RVD anymore. And yeah, you can spot all those awful indy workers inspired by him. Seems like a nice enough guy though and quite idiosyncratic, which is why he was so popular too.

Van Dam got to be really difficult to watch in 1999-2000 in TV matches with guys who he was definitely going to beat. There's no drama, and the matches all seem to last forever. When I watched all of the ECW TV a while ago, I was hitting the fast forward button a lot with RVD at that time if he wasn't wrestling Lynn or Sabu.

[jcmmnx]

RVD was a pretty good tag wrestler. I think most of his tag stuff was at least fun. Honestly I don't blame the guy for never changing his act he was over as fuck in both ECW and WWE, and made a lot of money pointing at himself and saying his name. More power to him.

[EricR]

I actually really liked RVD vs. Neville from 2014 NXT, much more than I was expecting.

[grapplin' apple]

RVD's promos were he continually insults Sabu and Fonzie are some of my favorite promos of all time. And, yeah, I do think he was a pretty good tag wrestler.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm talking about what looks like a real fight. Does it mean a brawl or something that looks like actual wrestling? Or something that's less co-operative looking or choreographed or rehearsed

 

Basically, I want to see something that looks competitive and allows me to suspend my disbelief. Most flippy-doo stuff fails on the second count because it requires too much obvious cooperation. Most mat-based stuff fails on the first count because if you're not throwing strikes, you're not doing everything you can to try to win.

[Laz]

Yes. Submissions and pin falls don't ever happen.

[AJS]

Tully Blanchard Vs Magnum TA I quit is a good match but not great.

[Matt D]

Tully Blanchard Vs Magnum TA I quit is a good match but not great.

 

Show your work.

[El-P]

Tully Blanchard Vs Magnum TA I quit is a good match but not great.

 

I haven't seen it in ages, but yeah, that's what it seemed to be the last time I watched it. Wasn't blown away at all.

[AJS]

 

Tully Blanchard Vs Magnum TA I quit is a good match but not great.

 

I haven't seen it in ages, but yeah, that's what it seemed to be the last time I watched it. Wasn't blown away at all.

 

It's been a while since I saw it too. I didn't thing it was bad by any means, it just didn't strike me as being a great as a lot of people say it is. one problem is that I went in to it with unbelievably high expectations and it just couldn't live up to them. I actually prefer Tully's match with Steamboat from the year before. As far as I quit matches go, I think Flair Vs Funk and Hart vs Austin are both much better than Tully and Magnum.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm not a fan of Magnum/Tully either, but that's mainly because I think the match gimmick sucks. Here's every I Quit match ever:

"SAY IT!"

"NOOOOOOOO~!"

"SAY IT!" *THUNK*

Repeat until it's time to go home.

[Microstatistics]

Agreed the I Quit gimmick is overrated but Magnum/Tully transcends it because of the absolutely visceral hatred, great selling and an all time great finish/post-match. I don't like it as much as its biggest fans do but still think it is a classic.

[AJS]

I'm not a fan of Magnum/Tully either, but that's mainly because I think the match gimmick sucks. Here's every I Quit match ever:

"SAY IT!"

"NOOOOOOOO~!"

"SAY IT!" *THUNK*

Repeat until it's time to go home.

I agree, and it usually makes me laugh which is surely not the intended reaction.

[El-P]

 

I'm not a fan of Magnum/Tully either, but that's mainly because I think the match gimmick sucks. Here's every I Quit match ever:

"SAY IT!"

"NOOOOOOOO~!"

"SAY IT!" *THUNK*

Repeat until it's time to go home.

I agree, and it usually makes me laugh which is surely not the intended reaction.

 

 

 

Thirded. One reason the Austin vs Bret match is so great is that they really didn't work it that way.

[AJS]

 

 

I'm not a fan of Magnum/Tully either, but that's mainly because I think the match gimmick sucks. Here's every I Quit match ever:

"SAY IT!"

"NOOOOOOOO~!"

"SAY IT!" *THUNK*

Repeat until it's time to go home.

I agree, and it usually makes me laugh which is surely not the intended reaction.

 

 

 

Thirded. One reason the Austin vs Bret match is so great is that they really didn't work it that way.

 

Totally agree.

[JerryvonKramer]

Time to wheel this post out:

 

Okay, I went all the way back to WTTBP #9 to transcribe the review. Here's what we said:

 

Chad: Right out of the gate, they really worked the cage. A couple of teases of Blanchard going in. That was the thing I really liked the best was, Blanchard going into the cage first and blocks it before sending Magnum in. So it really builds up to the moment of Tully going into the cage, and then it finally happens.

 

Parv: This is a real fight isn't it. These two guys are all over each other right from the very start and this is as hate-fueled and as brutal as you'd expect it to be really. Just awesome stuff.

 

Brian: They legitimately look like they hate each other.

 

Chad: Yeah, really hardly any other match I can think of ... the thing that always gets me about this match is the escalation of hate. At the bell, they obviously don't like each other, but throughout the match you really just feel the intensity and the hatred grow. And, of course, with the finish which is pretty much epic ...

 

Parv: I can't help but wonder like ... Tully Blanchard in real life never had a relationship with Baby Doll right? I mean, they weren't actually going out or anything right?

 

Chad: Well ... I don't think officially, but you hear a lot of stuff.

 

Parv: Because if they weren't, this is one of the best acting jobs ... he's very believable ... You get the impression he's legitimately pissed off.

 

[some stuff about how great Baby Doll was in this angle]

 

Parv: So the microphone plays a big part in this match, which I guess is one of the novelties of an "I Quit" match. So there's a big part of this where one guy is saying "SAY IT!" and the other guy is saying "NOOOoo!", so the whole premise of this is that one of them has to say "I Quit" into the mic.

 

Brian: The microphone was a big part of this, but it's not so much what they are saying but how they are saying it. It's an 80s mic, so it's got that sorta muffled sound, and that added so much to this. You can hear them breathing heavily and feel their pain.

 

Chad: It didn't seem cartoonish either. I mean, I know in the Bret Hart vs Bob Backlund Wrestlemania "I Quit" match, there's a couple of instances there where it feels really cartoonish them yelling "Nooo", but here it really felt like a battle.

 

Parv: One of the things I was going to say is that the humilation of having to say "I Quit" in front of an audience really seems ... I don't want to get too deep here ... but it really seems to get down to something primal. Like, I guess you'd call it the masculine ego or something ... This isn't just personal, this is their manhood, their pride, everything at stake here. Which is why they don't want to say "I Quit". And it's very rare for a wrestling match to get at that primal level. Would you agree with that?

 

Chad: Absolutely. I mean at the end of the match you do feel a sense of humilation for Tully. It's amazing that you kind of feel embarrassed for him. It's incredible, can't throw enough adjectives.

 

---------

 

Also from WTBBP #45, the end-of-80s awards:

 

Chad: I don't think it's much of a surprise if you've listened to this show what our top two matches would be. I think maybe the order would be in jeopardy, but we both had the same number 2 and same number 1.

 

Parv: So number 2, and this is a match, Chad, where when you said "it would be number 1 in AWA or All Japan or whatever", this is a match that I'd say is way up there for all-time matches for me, and that's Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanachard, "I Quit", Starrcade 85. What an incredible match.

 

Chad: This I'd probably say would be number 1 even on All Japan. Great match, hatred, emotions; for me this is a match where you get emotions that you don't see conjured up that much in wrestling. There's an amazing sense of humilation that you see in Tully's eyes as he quits. He's just this despicable man that even still won't just accept the loss, and Magnum defiantly leaving the cage as he tosses the belt over the shoulder walking tall. It's one of the best ... bringing somebody out to the wood shed and giving them what they deserve. This type of match where you knew both of them wouldn't be the same coming out of this match as they were going in and it's just a great culmination to a great rivalry.

 

Parv: I don't want to repeat myself too much, but to me this is one of the few instances where a match transcends the confines of wrestling. It's about more than just winning and losing, it's about manhood, it's about the male ego ... just fantastic.

 

-----------------

 

I guess sometimes certain things just don't click with certain people. I mean my entrants to this thread are all the recent WM epics. Undertaker vs. HBK, Flair vs. HBK -- those "staged epics" full of false finishes and choreographed emotion just don't speak to me on any level at all. I'm sure there are people here who think they are among the best matches of all time, so I guess it's what you like.

 

To me though, Magnum vs. Tully is another level.

[AJS]

 

Tully Blanchard Vs Magnum TA I quit is a good match but not great.

 

Show your work.

 

As I said in a previous post it has been a while since i've seen seen the match. I know it has been talked up by many as a classic but I just didn't get that when I watched it. i get that this is completely vague and i'm going to watch the match again tomorrow and post thoughts after. Who knows perhaps i'll love it this time.

[AJS]

Whilst comparing the Magnum-Tully Match with Flair-Funk in my mind, i'm thinking context and investment in the wrestlers comes into play for here.

 

I remember seeing Funk attack Flair after the Wrestlewar match, piledriving him through a table and calling him a horse toothed banana nosed jerk. Also vivid in my mind is Flair with the neck brace, the bag over his head and the Bash 89 match. By the time they got to Clash IX, i had seen all the important moments that had led them there and it meant so much more. I also love Flair and Funk as performers so I'm excited for the match because they are in it. I could say the same thing about the Hart-Austin feud.

 

But I watched Magnum and Tully in isolation and I didn't see the angles and promos that led them to that moment. I've also never particularly been a fan of either. Perhaps all this affected my view of the match.

 

I'm also not a fan of the gimmick, mainly because of the standard pattern a previous poster mentioned. Flair-Funk worked for me because I love seeing Flair in ass kicking baby face mode, and Hart-Austin was a success because it moved away from the usual formula.

 

I do remember listening to those podcast discussions and enjoying them very much. Unfortunately the match didn't grab me in the way it did you guys. I guess i'll see what I think tomorrow.

 

Andrew

[Migs]

Everyone talks about how you can "feel the hatred" - but the last time I watched it, all I saw was a wrestling brawl with a great finish. They work it in a way that looks less cooperative, and I get that that adds to the atmosphere a bit. But that bit of atmosphere doesn't push it to five star all-time classic for me. Maybe it's a "you had to be there" kind of thing? I watched the build up before the last time I saw it, so I had more context, but it still didn't register the way it seems to for most.

 

EDIT to add my most recent watch of the match was a few months ago.

[Matt D]

All the credit to Andrew for pledging to go back and rewatching to comment, by the way. That's all we can ever ask for.

[AJS]

Thanks Matt I appreciate your comment. I'm actually looking forward to going back and checking it out again. I'm thinking i'll go to youtube first and see if I can find angles/promos of the feud to give me some context before I watch.