Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 4

[El-P]

And this ended up with vacating the titles... 🙃

[The Thread Killer]

On 9/5/2024 at 5:38 PM, sek69 said:

From today's WO update:

"Keith Mitchell (formerly of AEW, TNA, WCW), Kevin M. Sullivan (WWE, AEW, TNA), and Timothy J. Walbert (WWE) will be part of the production team for Scott D’Amore’s new Maple Leaf Pro Wrestling promotion.'

 

So it seems that if nothing else these shows will look really good.

(attn: @The Thread Killer )

Oh man…D’Amore issued a press release today that his Maple Leaf Promotion is going to be running the old Maple Leaf Gardens in May.

I would not be able to go to the show anyways because I no longer live in Toronto and can’t go to events like that for health reasons, but the prospect of seeing wrestling again at Maple Leaf Gardens…that’s my childhood right there. Some of my best memories. It would be like going back in time to when things were good.

But if I order that show, then I have to see a Baron Corbin match announced by Mauro Ranallo. I’m pretty sure that’s what hell will be like.

But the prospect of seeing Pro Wrestling return to Maple Leaf Gardens after all these years…that’s some serious history.

 

 

[Dav'oh]

Found on r/MapPorn

[Control21]

3 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

Found on r/MapPorn

Interesting how this map compares to historical trends. You can kinda see why wrestling never really took off in the mountain states during the territory days. 

[strobogo]

Had that HBK 2005 Montreal promo pop up and lol at the heat and trolling, but also lol that in 2025 HBK in Montreal would get a hero's welcome and Hogan would get a house of boos. But also imagine a timeline where Bret actually did come out and just beat HBK's ass that night. 

[NintendoLogic]

Speaking of which, I've always been puzzled by Meltzer's insistence that the buyrate for Summerslam that year was largely due to people thinking Bret was going to show up. I was pretty heavily into WWE at the time and I never even considered it as a possibility. When they played his music in Montreal and he didn't come out, I figured that was the end of it.

[C.S.]

On 1/30/2025 at 3:11 PM, The Thread Killer said:

But if I order that show, then I have to see a Baron Corbin match announced by Mauro Ranallo. I’m pretty sure that’s what hell will be like.

Sounds like Heaven to me!

[El-P]

Finally, the news from Chris Bey

https://www.instagram.com/p/DGBuxK5zi-s/?igsh=MXZ2bmZ3NXdlZ3BndQ%3D%3D&img_index=1

 

 

[strobogo]

With distance from the pandemic and original Hardys stuff, surely we can all agree that the cinematic matches are the worst versions of entertainment from both pro wrestling and b movie shit

[El-P]

Nope. The opposite, in fact. I'm all for an all cinematic wrestling promotion, really. Make something fresh and absurd. Pro-wrestling is stale. The pandemic years were the most fascinating times for pro-wrestling. I miss stuff like TNA's Wrestlers House and the Good Brothers shows. And of course, the whole idea of Lucha Underground, which was based on regular matches, but had that whole cinematic production around it.

(and yeah, this was B-movie shit and it's why it was great, as opposed to the B-movie shit happening inside the ring as regular angles/matches and lauded by ridiculous "THIS IS CINEMA" claims)

[strobogo]

It wasn't fresh. Only in the context of pro wrestling. In all other forms of entertainment, it was not even B movie (which many of my favorite movies are B movies), but like Neil Breen tier movies. But combined it's the worst of pro wrestling corn and bad C movies into one very bad package. 

[El-P]

From all other form of entertainment point of view, 99% of pro-wrestling is B-movie level shit *at best*. I've seen some porn movies with better acting and more actual depth than 90% of pro-wrestling angles and acting. Pro-wrestling is inherently ridiculous. Shit, the Cena turn on Cody, in term of dramaturgy and acting, is fucking pathetic when you put it against even the most basic cheap-ass TV show. Cinematic matches brought something pretty unique, yes, *in the context of pro-wrestling*, because it worked from within and embraced the ridiculousness of it (well, for the most part). 

[NintendoLogic]

It is true that the execution of pro wrestling angles is frequently embarrassingly incompetent (the unforced errors in the Cena heel turn pale in comparison to "Yeah, but whose side is he on?"). But cinematic wrestling is even worse. It fails to deliver both the artistic rewards of good cinema and the visceral rewards of good wrestling.

[El-P]

On 1/30/2025 at 9:11 PM, The Thread Killer said:

But if I order that show, then I have to see a Baron Corbin match announced by Mauro Ranallo. I’m pretty sure that’s what hell will be like.

Well, you sure jinxed it for everyone, now, did you ? Going from Takeshita vs Mike Bailey/Josh Alexander to TAFKA Baron Corbin vs Thom fucking Latimer for the NWA title is not even a drop, it's straight into the abyss shit. It sure started well. And I sure have zero interest in *those* cards now. 

[strobogo]

We're about 20 years to the horrific end of Chris Benoit and I still can't sus out my feelings. You watch his work and wow great artist in his field, knowing in the back of your head that you're watching his brain turn into mush that ended up in the horror. But also being like "man this guy was good at this art form" and it feels like grappling with Polanksi or Woody Allen.  

Just a thing in my mind as going through a multi year Nitro era rewatch with some online friends. 

[KawadaSmile]

33 minutes ago, strobogo said:

We're about 20 years to the horrific end of Chris Benoit and I still can't sus out my feelings. You watch his work and wow great artist in his field, knowing in the back of your head that you're watching his brain turn into mush that ended up in the horror. But also being like "man this guy was good at this art form" and it feels like grappling with Polanksi or Woody Allen.  

Just a thing in my mind as going through a multi year Nitro era rewatch with some online friends. 

It's tough to compare it with Polanski because Benoit's art directly led to what happened to him, while Polanski's art didn't really cause him to commit his crimes. That kinda makes him come across as more disgusting as a person, yet easier to dissociate from his work than Benoit's.

[El-P]

26 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

It's tough to compare it with Polanski because Benoit's art directly led to what happened to him

Except it didn't. It's something that has been ignored over the years, and the discourse back then had no shot even alluding to it, but the reality is that women get murdered by them companion/husband *all the time*. It's a daily occurence, it's not an exception at all. Pro-wrestling fans still don't wanna see this and it's more "comfortable" to talk about Benoit either being a "monster" (hence something that has nothing to do with us normal people) or someone who did what he did because he had lot of concussions and a fried brain, but again, men kill their wife *all the time*. It's one every three days in France. It's called patriarchy.

The Benoit stuff was shocking to the pro-wrestling community because Benoit was the greatest wrestler ever this side of Eddie and there was a huge emotional connection that had been built over the years, but it's ignoring no fan knew who Chris Benoit was. Did he had factors that played in like depression and concussions ? Sure. But not every concussed guy nor every depressed guy kills his wife and kid. It was and still is an easy cop out to ignore the ugly, much more banal and systemic truth. The "spectacular" and unique aspect of the crime really distracted from the fact that what Chris Benoit did, *lots* of men do. Nancy wanted to leave. Men would rather kill women rather then let them go. Again, one every three days on average in France, that's the official stat and I doubt it's different (and certainly not better) in the US.

[KawadaSmile]

I do agree with you that systemic violence is more than often overlooked when analyzing those cases (Snuka killed his then-girlfriend like 20 years prior, the entire Macho Man/Elizabeth relationship was filled with violence, lots of wrestlers were rapists and child molesters etc), but won't you agree that Benoit taking roids certainly wouldn't have helped, to say the least? When you watch him, you're not just watching him taking the most horrific bumps, but you also know he's doing copious amounts of gear and taking painkillers to deal with that. Concussions are just a fragment of the equation - and if I recall correctly, it wasn't even his first instance of domestic violence. Benoit's case is, like you said, a "spectacular" example of something that's sadly mundane, but when we see him in action, we are more privvy to elements of his case than others. 

[El-P]

17 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

but won't you agree that Benoit taking roids certainly wouldn't have helped, to say the least?  (...)  Concussions are just a fragment of the equation - and if I recall correctly, it wasn't even his first instance of domestic violence. Benoit's case is, like you said, a "spectacular" example of something that's sadly mundane, but when we see him in action, we are more privvy to elements of his case than others. 

The thing is, and you answered the question yourself, it did not need to help him. There was indeed case of domestic violence before the murders. And he was also very much into the locker room bullying scene alongside tasteful people like JBL and Bob Holly. To me whatever his health issues were are totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. 

[NintendoLogic]

What about Daniel? It would be a lot easier to explain or at least rationalize if Nancy had been Chris's only victim. The fact that he killed his kid is what makes it so incomprehensible.

[El-P]

It's actually the same systemic issue. It happens a whole lot more than society wants to admit. 

[sek69]

I think it also has a lot to do with most wrestling fans not harboring illusions (at least historically to that point) weren't always the best people, but having one become a family annihilator was beyond the pale even by already known scummy wrestler behavior.

[Blehschmidt]

El-P is 100% correct that it happens every day, probably multiple times a day. If Chris Benoit had been a banker from Idaho, none of us would even know his name unless we lived in the area or were part of the family.

But, I think Sek hits the nail on the head. Up to that point the rat stories, the bullying, the racism, and so on, and so on, and on and on and on.... Were able to be attributed to just certain "bad" guys or was just chalked up to "boys being boys" or "those wacky wrestlers" or whatever other disconnect we as fans chose to justify liking terrible people. 

The Benoit situation was something so horrible, so unfathomable that it couldn't be ignored or chalked up and conveniently forgotten about so that we could go on rating matches or whatever.

 

As to the original post and sussing out feelings on the whole situation, speaking only in the context of professional wrestling, I've mostly come to feel bad for Nancy, in the terms that as Woman she was a very good manager. She was entertaining, she was well spoken, she was fun to watch with Sullivan, with The Steiners, with Sandman, and with Flair. She deserves to be remembered for her contributions to the business, but now any mention of her name will only bring to mind a singular thing and it is absolutely unfair to her legacy.

[strobogo]

For me, the difference with Benoit is you can track his deterioration mentally and physically. You can see the matches where he definitely gets brain damage, you can see him get more and more freakish bulk onto his frame that doesn't look the least bit natural, over the course of 10-15 years. 

And then the topic becomes, hey, should we just get rid of this form of entertainment and how complicit are we in how a whole lot of these people end up. I'm in full favor of getting rid of boxing and MMA, why should I give pro wrestling the extra rope when I know it is just as bad on the performers. Some may argue even worse.

[El-P]

The fact it was Benoit of all people, who had been pictured as "one of the actual good guys" for a long time (despite hints), especially after the death of Eddie, made it a very particular context which absolutely played into the perception of the whole thing. Not to mention if was before#Metoo and there was no discours aboute feminicide then. 

10 hours ago, Blehschmidt said:

As to the original post and sussing out feelings on the whole situation, speaking only in the context of professional wrestling, I've mostly come to feel bad for Nancy, in the terms that as Woman she was a very good manager. She was entertaining, she was well spoken, she was fun to watch with Sullivan, with The Steiners, with Sandman, and with Flair. She deserves to be remembered for her contributions to the business, but now any mention of her name will only bring to mind a singular thing and it is absolutely unfair to her legacy.

Same thing here. Dark Side really did a good job paying hommage to her and putting her front and center in the story.

7 hours ago, strobogo said:

And then the topic becomes, hey, should we just get rid of this form of entertainment and how complicit are we in how a whole lot of these people end up. I'm in full favor of getting rid of boxing and MMA, why should I give pro wrestling the extra rope when I know it is just as bad on the performers. Some may argue even worse.

The irony being that TKO is probably going to control boxing too in a not so long distance. So yeah, all of those under the same MAGA/Saudi loving umbrella. Not a pleasing thought at all.