Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 4

[El-P]

Joey Ryan certainly draws money for himself as he's one of the guy who doesn't need the "sweet" NXT deals to get around, get over and live his life as a pro-wrestler in 2017. More power to him. He's as pro-wrestling as anyone I've ever seen, really.

[The Thread Killer]

There is a difference between comedy that makes fun of the heels or the ref and comedy that makes fun of wrestling.

 

Exactly.

 

I don't think Joey Ryan is going to be the end of the wrestling business as we know it, but I also don't think he's just a harmless guy doing a comedy spot, either.

 

It's hard enough being a wrestling fan and admitting it to people. 99% of people who aren't fans feel the need to break it to you gently that it's fake. I actually had one coworker of mine once say: "I can't believe you're a wrestling fan, I thought you were intelligent." I had another question the validity of my University Degree, assuming that anybody who watches wrestling can't possibly have a post-secondary education. When that stupid video of Joey Ryan went viral, and ended up on the news and all the stupid late night talk shows, I actually had people ask me: "Hey Dave, you're a wrestling fan...are you a fan of the guy who beats people up with his dick?"

 

Joey Ryan is a mediocre talent at best, who was never going to make it big based on his skill level. He did something stupid to get attention, it worked better than he ever could have possibly hoped, and now he's milking it for all it's worth, regardless of how stupid it makes pro wrestling or pro wrestling fans look as a whole.

 

To paraphrase The Iron Sheik: Fuck The Joey Ryan.

[The Thread Killer]

Joey Ryan certainly draws money for himself as he's one of the guy who doesn't need the "sweet" NXT deals to get around, get over and live his life as a pro-wrestler in 2017. More power to him. He's as pro-wrestling as anyone I've ever seen, really.

 

I'm sure if Joey Ryan was offered an NXT deal he'd turn it down on principle, out of an unwillingness to compromise his art.

 

The one thing I enjoy about this is that he's forever going to go down in history as the guy who wrestled using his penis as a weapon and aside from that, accomplished...dick all.

[El-P]

What did he not accomplish exactly ? He makes a living doing what he loves, got over, got fans, didn't hurt anyone doing it, proposed his girlfriend, a fellow worker, during a match, which is quite the cool thing to do. That sounds like all good and fun to me.

 

So yeah, the outrage and vapors are quite funny. And ridiculous. Mostly ridiculous.

[Rah]

There's a lot of hatred for Joey Ryan over the spot but nothing really trickles down to the other wrestlers that take the bump, the promoters that book him and the fans that it is over with. It's not as if he's alone in destroying the sanctity of wrestling.

 

There was a point above that Ryan trained with Joe and Danielson, and the latter two are world champions and he isn't. Frankly, Ryan doesn't have the wrestling capability to be on their level - those two are elite level workers and grew a following because of it and their ability to engage the crowd. If Joey had stuck to that style, bulked up a bit and tried to take himself seriously he'd be Doug Williams. Technically proficient wrestler, didn't really break any box-office records. El-P was correct, he found his niche, played to his strengths and he got himself over. That's the end-goal as his job.

 

I loathe the move but more power to him. Besides, after watching his Youshoot interview, he seems like a super swell guy. Something quite rare in wrestling, people say.

[gordi]

Wow, the floor of this thread is just littered with popped monocles. It's killing me.

 

I wonder, based on The Thread Killer's comments above, how much of a connection there is between being being kind of ashamed of being a pro wrestling fan and hating comedy wrestling.

 

I mean, obviously there is a connection between taking yourself too seriously/being unable to laugh at yourself and hating comedy wrestling. That's absolutely a huge part of it. It would not be totally surprising if the more self-serious among us also occasionally feel some kind of shame at having a goofy hobby... and it would make sense that, if that were the case, those folks would prefer serious and realistic wrestling and have a genuine distaste for anything that acknowledges the goofyness at the core of all pro wrestling and tries to have some fun with it.

 

I'm kind of the contrapositive example in this case, I suppose.

 

What I mean is: I am totally proud of my pro wrestling fandom. I'm proud to be a wrestling fan, proud to have been a pro wrestler, proud to count many wrestlers among my friends... I wear pro wrestling t-shirts all the time here in Japan where I live now. I have a small business teaching business and conversation English. Most of my students are professionals (surgeons, lawyers, engineers...), retired wealthy people, or high-level students at top universities. I will absolutely wear one of my Giant Baba or Osaka Pro t-shirts while teaching my clientele. Both here and in Canada, it's one of the first things that anyone learns about me: I am a huge pro wrestling nerd. I'm also a huge Classical Music nerd and a maniac about local sake. My wife, my friends, my students, and my drinking buddies all know and accept my many quirks and I have never felt any need to justify my massive nerdliness.

 

And: I f'n LOVE comedy wrestling!! I was a ringside fixture at Osaka Pro shows for a long time after I moved here. That was a time of enormous joy in my life. Ebessan and Asian Cooger have been my drinking buddy for years. I have gone out of my way to see Danshoku Dino live. I once appeared on TV in a sketch with Razor Ramon RG where he was the Predator and I was Schwarzenegger... I'm not just a fan of comedy wrestling, I'm borderline obsessed with it.

 

I'm not necessarily saying it's good or bad, either way, I'm just speculating: I'd assume El-P is not ashamed of being a wrestling fan... I'd assume most people who find Joey Ryan's gimmick kinda funny or at least acceptable also feel no shame at being pro wrestling fans.

 

I'm curious if it's just The Thread Killer, or if, say, Victator and Cornette's Racket and anyone else who thinks Joey Ryan is a disgrace also sometimes feels like they are ashamed of being a pro wrestling fan. I don't mean any judgement by it, I'm mostly just curious.

 

As a huge fan of comedy in wrestling, it would be very interesting for me to understand why some people just hate it.

[The Thread Killer]

What did he not accomplish exactly ? He makes a living doing what he loves, got over, got fans, didn't hurt anyone doing it, proposed his girlfriend, a fellow worker, during a match, which is quite the cool thing to do. That sounds like all good and fun to me.

 

So yeah, the outrage and vapors are quite funny. And ridiculous. Mostly ridiculous.

 

What does proposing to his girlfriend have to do with anything? Aside from his girlfriend - and you apparently - who gives a shit about that? I'm sure he loves his mommy, and thinks kitties and puppies are cute, and he cried at the end of Toy Story 3, too. Equally irrelevant. Joey Ryan makes a living pretending he has a super-powered penis, I don't think that exactly qualifies him for Man of the Year.

 

As far as the bigger picture goes, I'm not "outraged." I don't like him. But I freely admit, his super-dick routine is intended to be a joke. Okay fine, Joey Ryan is comedy wrestler. Be careful what you wish for, Joey. As I said, I strongly suspect that when all is said and done, he is going to go down in the annals of wrestling history as a guy who achieved a brief period of fame and notoriety for doing a comedy spot based around his penis. Maybe that is why he got into the business. If so, mission accomplished.

 

Mind you, if we apply your logic...most of the stupid crap Vince Russo booked in WCW and TNA, now that I think about it, I'm sure there were plenty of people who found that stuff funny, right? And Vince Russo made a living doing what he loved, got over, got fans, didn't hurt anyone doing it, and he's been married to the same woman for something like 27 years! That sounds like all good and fun to me.

 

Except...

 

I don't like stuff that makes Pro Wrestling look stupid. I don't like being embarrassed for being a fan of Pro Wrestling. You can quite easily trot out about a million examples of things that have been done since the first day Ed "The Strangler" Lewis pulled on a pair of wrestling boots that were stupid, insulting to the intelligence and embarrassing. You can even argue that by it's very nature, Pro Wrestling IS stupid and embarrassing. That's not the kind of Pro Wrestling I like. I liked Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask. I liked Flair vs. Steamboat. I liked Misawa vs. Kawada. There were very few penis spots in those matches, that I remember.

 

Of course, I also laughed at Edge and Christian playing Triple H's theme song on a kazoo. I laughed at Kurt Angle driving a scooter while wearing an enormous helmet, trying to show the Undertaker that he too was a badass biker. I laughed at the List of Jericho. But I wasn't embarrassed by any of those things, and people who weren't fans could look at those things at see that they were making fun of characters and situations, not making a big joke out of Pro Wrestling itself.

[El-P]

Mind you, if we apply your logic...most of the stupid crap Vince Russo booked in WCW and TNA, now that I think about it, I'm sure there were plenty of people who found that stuff funny, right?

 

I don't care if some people thought it was funny or not. This is completely different. Vince Russo booked illogical shit, offensive stuff and violence against women and effectively killed off whatever was left of WCW and prevented TNA from ever growing past of its status because of it.

 

Joey Ryan is an indy comedy wrestler who does an absurd gag spot.

 

Get over it people.

 

And yeah proposing his girlfirend during a match is relevant to the whole character, because it was also a spot in the context of a pro-wrestling match, and quite a cool one at that.

 

(and since we're playing a "morality game" here it seems, yeah, those Dynamite Kid matches were awesome, weren't they ? Of course, the man was/is a complete piece of shit, but that never was considered an embarrassament to pro-wrestling, that biz where Jimmy Snuka gets a hero tribute video)

 

As far as making pro-wrestling look stupid ? Watching Ric Flair placing the hand of his opponent on his chest before taking the same damn bump for no other reason other than "pop the crowd" makes pro-wrestling look stupid to anyone willing to think about it for two second with an "out of the wrestling bubble" mind. Hulk Hogan is stupid as fuck (really, he looks like a giant jingoist clown injected with steroids doing bad pantonyme). The Undertaker zombi sit-up ? John Cena's Five Knuckle Shuffle ? The People's Elbow ? Kicking yourself hard in the face until you bleed or get concussions like Shibata used to do ? Jumping off the Cell through the announcers table ? Mr. Socko ? Guys in masks carefuly rolling around doing gymnastics and very obviously collaborating with each others ? Men in underwear slapping each others' chests with open hands ? Working "stiff" despite not actually being in a fight ? A fucking Irish-whip ? "Do you smeeeellllalalala what the Rock is cooking" ? Playing on xenophobic, homophobic, mysoginistic clichés ? Cutting your forehead with a razor to draw blood to pretend you were punched hard ? Actually punch a guy hard to draw blood to pretend you punched a guy hard ? A fat man sith a G-string sitting on another guy's face ? Giant Baba's chops ? Guys catching other guys doing jumps and flips over the top rope instead of moving ?

 

For fuck's sake. Pro-fucking-wrestling.

 

It's a gag. With a dick spot hulking up. It's funny because it's absurd. And harmless.

 

Get over it.

 

(I probably spent more time today talking about Joey Ryan than I actually ever did watching Joey Ryan's stuff. And by "stuff" I don't mean anything specific.)

[The Thread Killer]

I wonder, based on The Thread Killer's comments above, how much of a connection there is between being being kind of ashamed of being a pro wrestling fan and hating comedy wrestling.

 

I mean, obviously there is a connection between taking yourself too seriously/being unable to laugh at yourself and hating comedy wrestling.

I'm curious if it's just The Thread Killer, or if, say, Victator and Cornette's Racket and anyone else who thinks Joey Ryan is a disgrace also sometimes feels like they are ashamed of being a pro wrestling fan.

 

Holy crap, you literally couldn't be more wrong. Talk about your sweeping generalizations.

 

Firstly, just because somebody doesn't like Joey Ryan and his dick routine doesn't mean they dislike ALL comedy wrestling. That would be like me saying to you that if you don't like Louie CK, you don't like standup comedy, or if you don't like Judd Apatow, you don't like comedy movies. I love comedy and I am not opposed to comedy in Pro Wrestling - when it is done properly. Chris Jericho is pretty much the epitome of a guy who mastered the art of comedic wrestling while at the same time being able to balance the serious aspects of the business and still get his character across. To a lesser extent, ditto for Edge and Christian.

 

Secondly, I have been called a lot of things in my time and accused of a lot of character flaws, but I have literally never been accused of being self-serious or taking things too seriously. In fact, I've been criticized for the exact opposite. You are making a massive leap in "logic" and are being incredibly presumptuous by assuming that just because somebody isn't amused by Joey Ryan, they take themselves too seriously or have no sense of humor. I could just as easily turn around and accuse you of having no taste in comedy for liking him. I could ask why you don't have more respect for the tradition of professional wrestling, and why you would support something that makes it look foolish.

 

I liked Enzo & Cass. I liked The Wyatt Family. I like Gallows and Anderson. (They're a couple of good brothers.) But I know a lot of people around here do not share these opinions, and in my 34 years as a wrestling fan I have learned that just because something is popular, that doesn't mean it's good. By the same token just because something is unpopular, that doesn't make it bad. I don't like Joey Ryan one little bit, but if you enjoy that sort of thing - knock yourself out. But the fact that I don't like him doesn't mean I have some sort of perceptive problem or personality flaw.

 

You know the last time I was embarrassed about being a wrestling fan? When my co-worker asked me if I liked "the dick guy." I had to try and patiently explain that he was not a typical Pro Wrestler, that most of them are legitimate athletes, and that when it is done well, Pro Wrestling can have all the intrigue of a well written movie or television show, or all the athleticism of a legitimate sporting event or athletic contest. I have no issue telling people I am a fan. After all these years, it's pretty hard to hide. I just don't like having to try and excuse or explain stupid shit. I felt the exact same way then Mae Young gave birth to a hand, or when the world was introduced to Katie Vick.

 

Not moments where I WAS proud to be a fan.

[The Thread Killer]

 

Mind you, if we apply your logic...most of the stupid crap Vince Russo booked in WCW and TNA, now that I think about it, I'm sure there were plenty of people who found that stuff funny, right?

 

I don't care if some people thought it was funny or not. This is completely different. Vince Russo booked illogical shit, offensive stuff and violence against women and effectively killed off whatever was left of WCW and prevented TNA from ever growing past of its status because of it.

 

Joey Ryan is an indy comedy wrestler who does an absurd gag spot.

 

Get over it people.

 

And yeah proposing his girlfirend during a match is relevant to the whole character, because it was also a spot in the context of a pro-wrestling match, and quite a cool one at that.

 

(and since we're playing a "morality game" here it seems, yeah, those Dynamite Kid matches were awesome, weren't they ? Of course, the man was/is a complete piece of shit, but that never was considered an embarrassament to pro-wrestling, that biz where Jimmy Snuka gets a hero tribute video)

 

As far as making pro-wrestling look stupid ? Watching Ric Flair placing the hand of his opponent on his chest before taking the same damn bump for no other reason other than "pop the crowd" makes pro-wrestling look stupid to anyone willing to think about it for two second with an "out of the wrestling bubble" mind. Hulk Hogan is stupid as fuck (really, he looks like a giant jingoist clown injected with steroids doing bad pantonyme). The Undertaker zombi sit-up ? John Cena's Five Knuckle Shuffle ? The People's Elbow ? Kicking yourself hard in the face until you bleed or get concussions like Shibata used to do ? Jumping off the Cell through the announcers table ? Mr. Socko ? Guys in masks carefuly rolling around doing gymnastics and very obviously collaborating with each others ? Men in underwear slapping each others' chests with open hands ? Working "stiff" despite not actually being in a fight ? A fucking Irish-whip ? "Do you smeeeellllalalala what the Rock is cooking" ? Playing on xenophobic, homophobic, mysoginistic clichés ? Cutting your forehead with a razor to draw blood to pretend you were punched hard ? Actually punch a guy hard to draw blood to pretend you punched a guy hard ? A fat man sith a G-string sitting on another guy's face ? Giant Baba's chops ? Guys catching other guys doing jumps and flips over the top rope instead of moving ?

 

For fuck's sake. Pro-fucking-wrestling.

 

It's a gag. With a dick spot hulking up. It's funny because it's absurd. And harmless.

 

Get over it.

 

(I probably spent more time today talking about Joey Ryan than I actually ever did watching Joey Ryan's stuff. And by stuff and don't mean anything specific.)

 

 

Damn, you seem outraged over this. The outrage and vapors are quite funny. And ridiculous.

 

Mostly ridiculous.

[El-P]

Not very funny, that, either. Quarter star for effort.

 

BTW, not finding Joey Ryan's dick spot funny is one thing. Totally understand. Well, I think it is funny, but then again, I'm a Raven fan.

 

Getting outraged because of it and saying it's an embarrassement to pro-wrestling and shit is another. This is the ridiculous part.

[Victator]

I'm not sure what proposing to his girlfriend means. Every couple together longer than two months gets engaged. I mean until you're married you're just dating.

That said I'm not going to say Ryan is a bad wrestler. I saw him on Wrestle Society X and thought he had a lot of potential. I thought he did good work in TNA. I can think he does a stupid spot while thinking he has some talent. But its not any kind of outrage. As a fan I became immune watching WCW in 2000. I got to the point I see something like this I call it stupid and go about my business. I'll discuss it online out of boredom.

[gordi]

 

I wonder, based on The Thread Killer's comments above, how much of a connection there is between being being kind of ashamed of being a pro wrestling fan and hating comedy wrestling.

 

I mean, obviously there is a connection between taking yourself too seriously/being unable to laugh at yourself and hating comedy wrestling.

I'm curious if it's just The Thread Killer, or if, say, Victator and Cornette's Racket and anyone else who thinks Joey Ryan is a disgrace also sometimes feels like they are ashamed of being a pro wrestling fan.

 

Holy crap, you literally couldn't be more wrong. Talk about your sweeping generalizations.

 

Firstly, just because somebody doesn't like Joey Ryan and his dick routine doesn't mean they dislike ALL comedy wrestling.

 

 

... I felt the exact same way then Mae Young gave birth to a hand, or when the world was introduced to Katie Vick.

 

Not moments where I WAS proud to be a fan.

 

 

 

Yep, you are right. It's not fair of me to accuse you of disliking all comedy pro wrestling.

 

Elsewhere in this thread, Victator clearly states that he hates comedy in wrestling.

 

In trying to reply to two different people, I kind of lumped your feeling shame when people bring up dumb crap that happens in pro wrestling with his disdain for all in-ring comedy stylings. But if you read my post a little more carefully I never suggested that YOU take yourself too seriously. You are the example of a person who feels some shame w/r/t being a pro wrestling fan. Victator is the example of a person who hates comedy in wrestling. Cornette's Racket with his "Imagine Joey Ryan trying that bollocks in mid south ?" might perhaps be someone who takes pro wrestling too seriously.

 

I'm curious how much cross-over there is between "I'm ashamed of pro wrestling" "I HATE comedy wrestling" and "I take myself too seriously."

 

Maybe not as much as I had imagined.

 

 

Anyway I meant no offense...and stuff like Katie Vick did make me feel some shame, as well.

 

 

 

That being said, you did write this:

 

 

 

 

 

It's hard enough being a wrestling fan and admitting it to people. ... I actually had one coworker of mine once say: "I can't believe you're a wrestling fan, I thought you were intelligent." I had another question the validity of my University Degree, assuming that anybody who watches wrestling can't possibly have a post-secondary education.

 

And, to be fair, that does not paint a picture of a person who is proud to be a wrestling fan. If anyone came at me with that kind of trash talk I'd laugh right in their face. Andy Warhol and Roland Barthes were both wrestling fans!

[El-P]

I'm not sure what proposing to his girlfriend means. Every couple together longer than two months gets engaged. I mean until you're married you're just dating.

 

Off-topic : As a non-anglo-saxon, I've seen stuff on the whole "dating" concept and its subtleties, and it absolutely flies over my head. I've been in a relationship for more than ten years and we never got engaged. That's neither here nor there though.

 

On topic : It's relevant to the character because it was, of sorts, a comedy spot in a pro-wrestling match also, as he used it to actually get her in a small package and pin her, classic heel move. So it was both cute IRL and funny as a gag. Ryan is a comedy pro-wrestler, and a pretty good one at that. End of story.

[gordi]

I'll discuss it online out of boredom.

 

 

That makes perfect sense. I feel much the same.

[El-P]

Thirded.

[iamthedoctor]

I actually had one coworker of mine once say: "I can't believe you're a wrestling fan, I thought you were intelligent."

 

If I had a co worker say that to me I would have blasted him with a Stone Cold Stunner!

[Victator]

I don't necessarily hate comedy in wrestling. I hate pure comedy matches because I usually don't find it funny. But comedy is subjective so I can be wrong. But I can see a regular match with a few comedic elements amuse me.

I guess I think comedy should be used in wrestling with a scalpel and not a hammer.

As for being ashamed of wrestling, I am the opposite. I was actually going to say the Ryan fans are ashamed of it. Laughing at it to show "See we don't take this seriously." But I elected not to, since it generalizing and people genuinely find it funny.

[Matt D]

It's always more impressive to build something up than to tear it down. When the comedy works within the conventions of wrestling, I'm way more impressed than when it just dumps them or mocks them, especially when the next match on the card has to embrace them once again.

[Victator]

It's always more impressive to build something up than to tear it down. When the comedy works within the conventions of wrestling, I'm way more impressed than when it just dumps them or mocks them, especially when the next match on the card has to embrace them once again.

I think of when WCW did that "They aren't following the script. How are they going to finish the match?" Followed by Booker T defending the title against Jarrett.

[El-P]

No-selling, hulking up and nut shots are conventions of pro-wrestling. The Dick spot plays on all of them in an absurd way.

 

The more I think about it, the more it occurs to me that the "dick" part is what bothers people the most.

 

 

I think of when WCW did that "They aren't following the script. How are they going to finish the match?"

 

 

That was not intended as comedy in the least. That was Russo at his all-time worst shooty-shooty "the rest if fake but this shit is real... (and scripted" dumbfuckery. Actually, the actual quote is even more legendary : "What are they gonna do now ? IMPROVISE ?"

 

And I have to say this, most attempt at doing comedy in pro-wrestling is usually extremely bad and embarrassing (not "embarrasing for da biz" but simply "embarrassing"). What the WWE tries to pass as comedy is 99% rotten. So there..

[Mad Dog]

I find it weird that this one gets people so fired up but the thumb up the ass signature spot in PWG gets no mention.

[Victator]

That was not intended as comedy in the least. That was Russo at his all-time worst shooty-shooty "the rest if fake but this shit is real... (and scripted" dumbfuckery. Actually, the actual quote is even more legendary : "What are they gonna do now ? IMPROVISE ?"

 

Believe me, I wasn't laughing.

 

I had not heard of the PWG spot.

[Bix]

Joey Ryan is a nice guy and a competent wrestler who nobody should fault personally for any of this. I commend him for getting paid, with the porn sponsorship and whatnot. And I have zero issue with him doing the dick spot in DDT, where it fits. But it does, overall, feel like it's not exactly a great idea in the grand scheme of things. Trying to force the viral aspect when it DOES stick out like a sore thumb at a time when pro wrestling appears to have finally shaken most of its stigma...not crazy about it.

[The Thread Killer]

Not very funny, that, either. Quarter star for effort.

 

What?! Only a 1/4 star? Your ranking system is too tough.

 

Yep, you are right. It's not fair of me to accuse you of disliking all comedy pro wrestling.

 

Anyway I meant no offense...and stuff like Katie Vick did make me feel some shame, as well.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, when I responded to your post I had just worked a 12 hour night shift and hadn't eaten. It's entirely possible I was being snarky when I responded and could have done it a bit more diplomatically.

 

The end result is, I have established that I don't care for Joey Ryan or his spot. I respect and understand that there are lots of people who do. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

I got to the point I see something like this I call it stupid and go about my business. I'll discuss it online out of boredom.

 

I agree with this sentiment. If nothing else, the issue gave me an entertaining diversion while on my break at work.

 

So in that sense, I guess you could say Joey Ryan and his dick-spot entertained me.