Ric Flair: The most overrated wrestler of all time

[stro]

Flair is as close to universally praised as the greatest of all time, by those in the industry, and fans. But he's clearly not. I would argue that not only is he not great, at times he wasn't even good, and I'll explain.

 

1. Severely limited in the ring

 

I don't mean from a move set perspective (although that is part of it), but from a match structure standpoint. Ric Flair could only do one match: The Ric Flair match. I'm sure we're all very familiar with it and could probably write it out spot for spot in order, because he had that match with everyone. That same match could plug in Terry Taylor, Hulk Hogan, El Gigante, Rey Mysterio, Sting, DDP, Ron Garvin, or Ricky Morton, and you'd get the same thing out of it. It's no surprise that almost all of his highest praised matches were ones where his opponent refused to go along with the formula and dragged him kicking and screaming out of his comfort zone. Even in his physical prime, he was consistently blowing his own major spots, and he kept doing them in the 90s even when he physically couldn't do them anymore. His way of getting around that was to...add more bumps on the floor. He was an ugly wrestler, in terms of athletic ability and execution. If he blew a spot, he made it very clear to everyone. He was very blatant at calling his spots and telling people when to come in at him. He was very, very blatant at blading, rarely even trying to hide what he was doing.

 

2. Terrible in ring psychology

 

I guess people just overlook that he spent 40 years doing chops and arm work to set up the figure four. If he was having an hour long match, he'd wait until the last 10 minutes to even START the leg work. And for being known as a technical wrestler, the extent of which he did was the canned headlock > head scissors > repeat > bridge spot that you'd see in every opening match in the 70s, plus hammer locks to kill time. Even worse, his hammer locks and bridges looked like shit. He also worked the wrong leg for 40 years. His bumping and selling was comedic, and two of his biggest spots were straight up comedy spots (the flip and the flop) that always kill any tension and seriousness in a match. When he wrestled as a face, he'd often fall into the same patterns, doing spots designed to get face pops for his heel opponents. Or, he'd do something like have matches with Vader where he'd out punch and out brawl FUCKING VADER. He'd constantly drag guys into doing things they'd never do in other matches (such as back drops on the floor, press slams, superplexes) because Flair had to get his Flair shit in regardless of opponent.

 

3. Never the best member of his own group

 

Arn was better than Ric at literally everything inside of a ring. I'd argue promos at times, as well. There were times where Flair was at the bottom of the list as a Horseman, specifically the Flair/Arn/Tully/Barry version. Tully did Flair's gimmick in and out of the ring better than Flair. You can't be the leader of a group and clearly not be the best member of the group at any time.

 

 

There are a whole host of personal issues that could play a factor into this, but I'd rather keep it to his in ring performances instead of ragging on him as a human. The amount of shit that people just over look when calling Flair the GOAT is so absurd. You'd never see someone with such glaringly huge holes in his/her game be called the greatest of all time in a real sport. When fans use actual wrestlers claiming him to be the best, they conveniently overlook that the people that praise him the highest were kids or teenagers when they first saw him, and got into wrestling because of him. Wrestlers that worked with him, but didn't grow up being fans of him tend to have much different opinions of his abilities as a performer.

 

It's weird that people just let his MASSIVE flaws slide because he's been rated so high for so long.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beast]

http://placetobenation.com/fair-for-flair-a-mini-series/

[Ricky Jackson]

This was already discussed ad nauseum years ago

[El-P]

I'm an old Flair fan. I had him #20 on my GWE list. And I do agree with some if these points.

 

The "wrong leg", yeah, that one is just unforgivable, honestly.

 

Kayfabe-wise, Flair is kind of a dumb as fuck worker who only got by cheating.

 

Un-kayfabe-wise, Flair is a goofy go-go-go worker who did lot of stuff who popped the crowds big time.

 

I'd live happily not watching another Flair match ever at this point, but I have loved watching him for a long time.

 

Beating on a dead horse though.

 

Flair is Walking Dead case.

 

Now : his daughter.

[stro]

I'm an old Flair fan. I had him #20 on my GWE list. And I do agree with some if these points.

 

The "wrong leg", yeah, that one is just unforgivable, honestly.

 

Kayfabe-wise, Flair is kind of a dumb as fuck worker who only got by cheating.

 

Un-kayfabe-wise, Flair is a goofy go-go-go worker who did lot of stuff who popped the crowds big time.

 

I'd live happily not watching another Flair match ever at this point, but I have loved watching him for a long time.

 

Beating on a dead horse though.

 

Flair is Walking Dead case.

 

Now : his daughter.

Right now, I'd say Charlotte's base match is better than Ric's, and her psychology is a lot better. The biggest issue with Charlotte has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with her only having 2-3 opponents for the last year. Even then, compare the 4 or 5 matches with Sasha this year to any 4-5 matches that Ric had with one opponent and see how varied and different Charlotte's are in comparison. Charlotte is probably the strongest over all performer on Raw right now.

[Tim Cooke]

I'm not sure you have even watched the matches - maybe this is just some mid level trolling.

 

The 5/17/86 TV and 7/5/86 house show matches against Ricky Morton have Flair working over Morton's nose, something that I haven't seen worked on outside of the 1995 Misawa orbital bone injury. His Boogie Jam 60:00 draw against Steamboat is worlds different from their 1989 series. The Garvin cage match from Sept 1987 is very different from 12/85 studio match and the much lesser 11/87 Starrcade match. Like every wrestler, Flair did have a formula for lesser opponents such as a really young Sting, Luger, Koloff but lump categorizing every Flair match into one narrative is ignorant at best, terribly lazy and boring at worst.

[stro]

Yes I have watched the matches. I've seen most every major Flair match since around 78 or so. This is a conclusion I've come to over the past few years primarily from being exposed to more of his work outside of JCP, where he often looked even more out of place and enforced his formula even more. He'd go to other territories and work the same match that he would for the JCP crowd instead of the Texas or Mid South crowd. Or in Japan, he'd more or less have that same match, but be a bit more subdued.

 

I used to think Flair was great growing up. Then, as I saw more of his work and began writing down my thoughts and really formulating my opinions, I realized he wasn't very good at the most basic things in wrestling. And that opinion got more and more solidified to the point where, heading into 2017, I could name probably 100 guys I'd put ahead of him.

[Loss]

He's awful, I agree. Thanks for your contributions to PWO.

[stro]

[Ricky Jackson]

What is that even supposed to mean?

[stro]

It means I'm feeling blessed to be so welcomed

[fxnj]

I've said it before, but, if you want to watch how an NWA champ should work, watch Lou Thesz. He does a lot of similar spots as Flair, but he's far better in his delivery and in making them feel meaningful. The matches that we have all have their own unique variances, showing him as someone who knew how to change up his matches to play to his opponent's strengths without having to do shit like Flair's starting every match with a long face shine sequence.

 

I don't have the inclination to watch a bunch of Flair matches just to review it for this thread, but if you still have any of those thoughts you've written while watching specific matches, posting them might quell the accusations of trolling or retreading old talking points.

[stro]

Oh man, Lou Thesz was genuinely amazing to watch. Dude killing guys with backdrops and powerbombs in the 50s, knowing perfectly when to stooge, when to throw cheap shots, when to be a bad ass and go for the kill. I have a website where I've watched pretty much every major Flair match from 1986 on. My thoughts on him have been pretty consistent.

[fxnj]

Can you post a link to your website? Sounds like it would be pretty interesting to read.

[stro]

Legitshook.com

[Cap]

Given the whole lucha thread debacle I laughed out loud when I saw this come up. Honestly, I think Flair and his place is a fascinating point of discussion, but it has been driven into the ground here. If the merits of Flair are something you are actually interested in discussing (and not just baiting people into indignation over) I really would recommend Parv's "Fair to Flair" series. It was decisive to say the least. I loved it and thought he raised some really nuanced points about what Flair did and why it mattered. I think there is also a Flair vs Hart thread somewhere that was somewhat maddening at times but has lots of the opinions rolling around.

 

I am honesty not being dismissive; I have to head out and I really want to watch this Beyond Wrestling show I started. I have never really chimed in on Flair here so maybe I will come back and chat about it later tonight, but the long and short of it is that I went through a phase of not digging on Flair as much, but I just can't help but love how he made things work that had no business working at all. I mean, he was facing completely different expectations. his career wasn't designed to be watched in the way we watch wrestling today, but I still find myself constantly fascinated with Flair's work, especially the nuanced differences between matches. Even if he was redundant and his psychology didn't work, I find him extremely re-watchable. Anyway, I imagine this won't get a ton of substantive traction given how much Flair has been discussed here.

[Coffey]

Stro, I would be interested in this thread to read you compare Ric Flair to Nick Bockwinkle. I've often wondered if part of the appeal of Ric Flair was because so much of his career was readily available on tape - mostly in good condition too.

 

Also, it's hard to remove yourself from an era. Watching Ric Flair growing up and in the moment is different for me than going back and re-watching him with 2016 eyes.

 

 

I think Ric Flair is fantastic, by the way. I had him at #5 in GWE but don't bat an eye at anyone that puts him at #1. I more think Daniel Bryan is overrated by the PWO crew.

 

[stro]

I believe Bock was better at everything than Flair, outside of bombastic promos. Bock's serious promos were better than Ric's serious promos. Flair got to work with better talent for much longer, but Bock himself was a far better wrestler in my eyes. Bock was a better technition, better seller, had better psychology, was a better athlete than Flair was even when Bock was nearing 50 and Ric was in his physical prime.

 

Bock was the adult version to Ric Flair's cartoon show. Bock is a treat.

[Superstar Sleeze]

RIC FLAIR HAD THE SAME MATCH WITH TERRY TAYLOR AND RICKY MORTON?!?!?!?!?!?! LOL!!! You have no credibility dude after that statement. Just another anti-Flair troll that parrots the same talking points. Do you really think any of your talking points are novel? That you somehow came to some grand conclusion no one has ever come to before because you didn't, brutha. How about instead of tearing someone down, you build someone up. Positivity for the New Year!

 

You know whats more redundant than a Ric Flair match, a post made by an anti-Ric Flair troll now that's something I can call before even reading it.

[stro]

I don't need "credibility", whatever the hell that means, on a wrestling message board. I've had these thoughts documented about Flair for years. It's not trolling. It was a spin off of the other thread, because talking about Flair and the GWE got me thinking about how ridiculous it was that people that claim to REALLY KNOW wrestling would put him at the top of any list, knowing how deeply, deeply flawed he was as a performer.

 

Instead of calling me a troll, perhaps share you view of why I'm incorrect.

[sek69]

It sounds like "get off my lawn" old man complaining, but it's hard to look at the varied opponents he had as NWA champ in the early-mid 80s and think he's overrated. He made complete lumps look like a million bucks more than anyone I can think of. Now he did have his flaws, of course, but the whole idea that he's overrated is just lunacy. It just comes off as the pro wrestling version of a HAWT SPORTZ TAEK you'd hear on talk radio or an ESPN shouty head show.

[Ricky Jackson]

I don't need "credibility", whatever the hell that means, on a wrestling message board. I've had these thoughts documented about Flair for years. It's not trolling. It was a spin off of the other thread, because talking about Flair and the GWE got me thinking about how ridiculous it was that people that claim to REALLY KNOW wrestling would put him at the top of any list, knowing how deeply, deeply flawed he was as a performer.

 

Instead of calling me a troll, perhaps share you view of why I'm incorrect.

Who do you consider the least flawed wrestlers? Just to understand where you're coming from

[stro]

He made himself look great. The only guy he "made" was Sting, who couldn't be stopped even if Flair wanted to stop him. Who else had their career elevated after working with Flair? Damn near everyone working with him went back to where they were or lower on the card. Or they left the company because of him.

 

 

I don't need "credibility", whatever the hell that means, on a wrestling message board. I've had these thoughts documented about Flair for years. It's not trolling. It was a spin off of the other thread, because talking about Flair and the GWE got me thinking about how ridiculous it was that people that claim to REALLY KNOW wrestling would put him at the top of any list, knowing how deeply, deeply flawed he was as a performer.

Instead of calling me a troll, perhaps share you view of why I'm incorrect.

Who do you consider the least flawed wrestlers? Just to understand where you're coming from

 

All have some flaws, certainly, but on my list of guys that I enjoy the most and see the fewest flaws in, I'd put Jumbo, Bret Hart, and Arn Anderson at the top.

[Grimmas]

I don't need "credibility", whatever the hell that means, on a wrestling message board. I've had these thoughts documented about Flair for years. It's not trolling. It was a spin off of the other thread, because talking about Flair and the GWE got me thinking about how ridiculous it was that people that claim to REALLY KNOW wrestling would put him at the top of any list, knowing how deeply, deeply flawed he was as a performer.

 

Instead of calling me a troll, perhaps share you view of why I'm incorrect.

I don't like Flair. I think he's over rated.

 

I had him #10 on my list.

[cpst]

I think people who viewed the GWE as being more of an objective enterprise were likely to rate Flair high on their lists, regardless of their personal feelings towards him, because of his prominence in North American wrestling during the era where footage starts appearing en masse. He also has some "hidden gem" matches that show up in footage outside of his home territory, which encourages people that dive into a lot of old footage to view him highly. Of course, the most objective factors in wrestling history are economic, and I doubt there were too many voters with lists approximating the top draws during the same time period.