Ric Flair: The most overrated wrestler of all time

[fxnj]

Ranking someone you don't like high just for being champ at a time when a lot of footage started appearing isn't objectivity. That's just rewarding a guy for being in the right place at the right time.

 

It is very difficult, if not impossible, to separate yourself from your subjective stylistic preferences when trying to make an objective assessment of someone's overall skill as a worker. That's why I think the best way to look at someone is to compare them to peers or people who worked similarly, like is being done in this thread. On that note, it seems entirely reasonable to want to discuss Flair again when, since the GWE, we've seen his daughter come into her own as a champ, more touring Bockwinkel matches surface, and more people become open to watching Golden Age footage. None of those points of discussion seem like tired retreads to me. I see the far more tired point of pimped puro being all about head drops and 2.9 counts wheeled out almost every day on here without people getting accused of trolling for it.

[thebrainfollower]

I've talked about Flair before, mostly his WWF run and my problems with it. I do think Ric Flair is a great athlete but yes in general he blows spots every now and then. I never really appreciated how good the WWF camera team was during the Hogan era until I started seeing just how many more blown spots were being picked up by JCP/WCW cameras and covered up by WWF ones.

 

Flair strikes me as frustrating because I do think he can vary up his game and wrestle different styles against different opponents but not often enough. I honestly think a lot of this is a result of his documented substance abuse issues. Even someone as brilliant as Winston Churchill could make the same talking points over and over again and at times to the worst possible audiences because the man was literally imbuing alcohol every moment he was awake. Had Flair cleaned himself up that way and applied a little more intellectual thought to his work (particularly his WWF run where he really should have adapted his style more) I think he'd be even better than he's usually regarded.

 

I do think he is sometimes given a pass because he is the poster boy of JCP 80's which tends to be the average smart fan's favorite American promotion. But PWO (anti WWF bias at time aside) IS a lot more deep than that and HAS discussed Ric Flair to death and yes his daughter is showing him up. She's pretty much HHH's dream wrestler too, tall, blond muscular, a dominant heel who never ever jobs at PPV and the daughter of his idol so I expect a decade of dominance from her if her health holds up.

[Cap]

Given the hype around Flair, his place in the WWE narrative, and the near universal love he receives he could be "overrated" and one of - if not the - best ever in the same breath.

[thebrainfollower]

That is certainly valid. I was tempted to say Flair is both the GOAT and overrated.

[El-P]

She's pretty much HHH's dream wrestler too, tall, blond muscular, a dominant heel who never ever jobs at PPV and the daughter of his idol so I expect a decade of dominance from her if her health holds up.

 

Funny, it's a great point. And don't forget the great hair. Charlotte is everything HHH ever wanted to be, and more.

[fxnj]

As far as far Flair being overrated goes, my view is that 80's US stuff is overrated all the way down. It's not hard to see why. It was part of the cultural zeitgeist, it's easy to find footage from it, and a lot of the people currently in the business were getting their first exposure to wrestling. Between those things and the shit that came in the early 90's, it's no wonder that fans have come to view Flair's work and 80's JCP as some sort of promised land for US in-ring wrestling.

 

80's style was the perfect fit both for wrestling's kayfabe era and the overall cultural climate idealizing action heroes. Long matwork was traded for workrate, heels became cartoon characters when it was time to sell, and matches were built around the wholesome all-American good guy trying to overcome dastardly cheaters. But I don't think it holds up that well if you weren't around for it, and that's part of why there's more demand now for wrestling that's more clean and subdued.

[sek69]

If someone wanted to argue that Flair not hanging it up in the nWo era hurt his legacy, I'd be open to that. Between times and tastes changing and Bischoff's seemingly unending hardon against him, had he seen the writing on the wall and called it a career in 1996 I doubt there'd be a discussion like this today,

[El-P]

Between times and tastes changing and Bischoff's seemingly unending hardon against him, had he seen the writing on the wall and called it a career in 1996 I doubt there'd be a discussion like this today,

 

Of course there would, because plenty of people don't consider his 80's work as great as it's pimped to be. The fact he was a terrible wrestler in the 00's (yes, terrible) and gets a pass for it when other guys are being lambasted for their post-prime bad work doesn't help the perception either for those of us who don't consider Flair to be that absolute icon of great work. Like I said, I had it at #20 and I am an old Flair fan, but that doesn't mean I can't be objective...

[fxnj]

Consider the career of Jumbo Tsuruta. All-time great young star in the 70's, cemented himself as ace with several classic matches in the 80's, then stepped away in the early 90's in the midst of the best run of his career. That sort of storybook career arc seems to have contributed to people becoming even more tired of discussing him than Flair. I could argue Flair sticking around as long as he did actually helped him by making him stay relevant to fans well into his 60's.

[stro]

If someone wanted to argue that Flair not hanging it up in the nWo era hurt his legacy, I'd be open to that. Between times and tastes changing and Bischoff's seemingly unending hardon against him, had he seen the writing on the wall and called it a career in 1996 I doubt there'd be a discussion like this today,

This is where I'm going to defend him: 1997 is one of his best years. He spent almost the whole year working with Hall/Nash/Syxx and various much much younger lower card guys and he had a real fire that he hadn't had in many years.I also think his work in Evolution is better than his prime years, because at his core, Ric's in ring style and abilities were much better suited for tags and 6 man tags where he could hit his spots and tag out instead of repeat his spots for 40 minutes by himself. Flair had the promos of a lead guy, but the ring style of a lackey.

[NintendoLogic]

I don't think there's any particular thing Flair is the greatest of all time at, but there's no one who's better than him at everything. It all comes down to what you value the most.

[Matt D]

I'm biased, but I agree that the direct challenge is Bockwinkel with the new footage we've gotten to sure up a lot of the questions that previously persisted or the glimpses we couldn't be sure of.

[thebrainfollower]

Mark my words if Stephanie dies in a plane crash HHH and Charlotte will be married within a year.

[cpst]

Mark my words if Stephanie dies in a plane crash HHH and Charlotte will be married within a year.

Clearly that's the real reason for HHH's heat with Del Rio.

[Dylan Waco]

As far as far Flair being overrated goes, my view is that 80's US stuff is overrated all the way down. It's not hard to see why. It was part of the cultural zeitgeist, it's easy to find footage from it, and a lot of the people currently in the business were getting their first exposure to wrestling. Between those things and the shit that came in the early 90's, it's no wonder that fans have come to view Flair's work and 80's JCP as some sort of promised land for US in-ring wrestling.

 

80's style was the perfect fit both for wrestling's kayfabe era and the overall cultural climate idealizing action heroes. Long matwork was traded for workrate, heels became cartoon characters when it was time to sell, and matches were built around the wholesome all-American good guy trying to overcome dastardly cheaters. But I don't think it holds up that well if you weren't around for it, and that's part of why there's more demand now for wrestling that's more clean and subdued.

 

The older I get the more I think this is true. I still love 80s wrestling and greatly prefer the method for story telling that was the norm during that error to what we see today. That said, I've argued for some time that there is vastly more quality wrestling available in the modern era than there was in the 80s or the 90s. On top of that I think the 80s benefits heavily from mythologizing certain things. A guy like Chris Hero probably has double the number of great matches on tape as someone like Ricky Steamboat, and his career in the ring is roughly as long, but a lot of people who default rank Steamer higher. I suspect this is due to years of being told that him and Flair had great matches that no will ever see, and the fact that the Steamboat's best stuff stands out more due to the way things were booked in his day (i.e. there was build to the big matches, and things weren't lost in the shuffle due to insane oversaturation).

[cpst]

Ranking someone you don't like high just for being champ at a time when a lot of footage started appearing isn't objectivity. That's just rewarding a guy for being in the right place at the right time.

 

It is very difficult, if not impossible, to separate yourself from your subjective stylistic preferences when trying to make an objective assessment of someone's overall skill as a worker. That's why I think the best way to look at someone is to compare them to peers or people who worked similarly, like is being done in this thread.

In case it wasn't clear from my post, I didn't think that it was actually objective, just that the people who fooled themselves into thinking the GWE would somehow produce an objective list of the greatest wrestlers ever worked themselves into a shoot this way. If someone doesn't think that Flair is that great of a wrestler, why should they put him in their top 10 greatest wrestlers ever?

 

I agree that the best way to judge a wrestler's work is by comparison with his peers. From that perspective it doesn't really make sense to ask the whether Ric Flair was the greatest wrestler ever in any objective fashion. You can judge drawing power, compare him to his peers and the house style in his home promotions, judge how well he adapted to the style of other promotions and wrestlers while touring, etc. while comparing him to others who did the same. But if you have a luchador (for example's sake) that stands out amongst his peers and never intersected with Flair in any meaningful way, the question of whether Ric Flair is the better wrestler just boils down to personal preference of styles and promotions.

[stro]

There's also a big difference between someone having great matches in front of hundreds, later seen by thousands, and someone having great matches in front of thousands, seen by millions. The same reason why some tiny art house movie that got released into 25 theaters world wide isn't held in as high esteem as The Godfather.

[Matt D]

 

 

As far as far Flair being overrated goes, my view is that 80's US stuff is overrated all the way down. It's not hard to see why. It was part of the cultural zeitgeist, it's easy to find footage from it, and a lot of the people currently in the business were getting their first exposure to wrestling. Between those things and the shit that came in the early 90's, it's no wonder that fans have come to view Flair's work and 80's JCP as some sort of promised land for US in-ring wrestling.

 

80's style was the perfect fit both for wrestling's kayfabe era and the overall cultural climate idealizing action heroes. Long matwork was traded for workrate, heels became cartoon characters when it was time to sell, and matches were built around the wholesome all-American good guy trying to overcome dastardly cheaters. But I don't think it holds up that well if you weren't around for it, and that's part of why there's more demand now for wrestling that's more clean and subdued.

The older I get the more I think this is true. I still love 80s wrestling and greatly prefer the method for story telling that was the norm during that error to what we see today. That said, I've argued for some time that there is vastly more quality wrestling available in the modern era than there was in the 80s or the 90s. On top of that I think the 80s benefits heavily from mythologizing certain things. A guy like Chris Hero probably has double the number of great matches on tape as someone like Ricky Steamboat, and his career in the ring is roughly as long, but a lot of people who default rank Steamer higher. I suspect this is due to years of being told that him and Flair had great matches that no will ever see, and the fact that the Steamboat's best stuff stands out more due to the way things were booked in his day (i.e. there was build to the big matches, and things weren't lost in the shuffle due to insane oversaturation).

You would have to argue hard to make me think this is not first and foremost footage and then second drawing due to perceived match quality and not heat(and then far, far more the former), at least if we're comparing main eventers.

 

More great wrestling is available. More wrestling is available period. More long, unclipped main event style matches are available by a massive, massive degree.

[Loss]

A big part of it is that most of the great matches aren't happening in front of big, hot crowds. That's not a dealbreaker for me in the least, but it's why they aren't as memorable. Great matches are also treated as more disposable now. Dave spent about three weeks raving about Clash I in the WON in 1988. I can't imagine him doing that for any show in 2016-2017. People largely consume, praise and then move on to the next thing.

 

I remember a match from Evolve getting the full five earlier this year between ZSJ and Ospreay. I think VoW heralded it as a true breakthrough for British wrestling in America. I haven't heard anyone so much as mention the match since, or if they have, I genuinely don't remember. Shouldn't a match like that be talked about as iconic and be at the forefront of wrestling discussion pretty much everywhere for the rest of 2016 and beyond? Ospreay-Ricochet in Japan got a lot of talk that lasted months, mainly because of the Vader stuff on Twitter. Wrestling absolutely has no shortage of great matches now -- in some ways, there's an overabundance to the point it's hard to keep up with everything that gets MOTYC buzz. But even the great stuff tends to come across to me as easy to admire and pretty tough to love -- I think that's because when I watch stuff now, I feel like in most instances I'm watching guys perform instead of watching guys work (which I'll admit is a hilarious line coming from a fan of Ric Flair, the ultimate performing wrestler, but he at least could wrestle mean).

 

As I've said recently, I put most of the inability to connect on me and not current wrestling itself. But if we want to compare now to the 80s, have there been any live reports from WWE or NXT house shows of MOTYCs lately? Have any fancams surfaced to confirm this to be the case for any of them? Lucha libre, from what I've seen, seems to be the only genre left that doesn't go half speed when professional cameras aren't rolling, as handhelds like Black Terry vs Wotan nicely demonstrate.

[Dylan Waco]

I've been to four NXT house shows this year. Everyone of them had at least one match that was very good, and two of them had truly excellent matches on them.

[EricR]

There's also a big difference between someone having great matches in front of hundreds, later seen by thousands, and someone having great matches in front of thousands, seen by millions. The same reason why some tiny art house movie that got released into 25 theaters world wide isn't held in as high esteem as The Godfather.

 

I don't know anyone who holds The Godfather in high esteem. I'm struggling to think of even one worthwhile match he had.

[Jetlag]

I didn't read this thread, but can someone repost Ole Anderson's criticism of Ric Flair in his book?

[joeg]

clips of Ole shoots on Flair-

 

[PhilTLL]

 

 

There's also a big difference between someone having great matches in front of hundreds, later seen by thousands, and someone having great matches in front of thousands, seen by millions. The same reason why some tiny art house movie that got released into 25 theaters world wide isn't held in as high esteem as The Godfather.

I don't know anyone who holds The Godfather in high esteem. I'm struggling to think of even one worthwhile match he had.

Ba dum tchhhhh...

[fxnj]

Interesting points by Loss. Have we crossed the point where fans have become so used to regularly seeing greatness it's become detrimental to their perception? As an occasional WWE viewer I would have to say yes. When I watch one of their shows I can't help but be blown away by the level of talent on the display and the creativity involved in the storylines. Big guys are moving around like cruiserweights and there's a level of complexity in the angles that would have been unheard of back in the day.

 

Yet, when I check the reactions online, instead of appreciating what they're seeing, fans latch onto whatever minor thing they can find to complain about. Modern WWE fans are some of the most spoiled and overly critical fans in all of entertainment, at least in regards to the current product. 80's JCP is frequently held up as a paragon of US wrestling TV done right despite being little more than squash matches, repetitive promos, and basic angles.

 

Fans of indies are less cynical, but that also gives way to seemingly every show getting praised as having one or more ****3/4 barn burners while only the consensus ***** matches get remembered for year end voting. I'm less familiar with the indies, but from what I've seen, a lot of those ratings might not even be hyperbole. I watched Lee/Everett from June after shoe pimped it and was blown away by these guys I had never heard of having a match on par with the best of 90's AJPW, yet it's already been forgotten by this point.