People's perception of wrestler's sizes.

[Jetlag]

If you think wrestling fans being mad at wrestlers for being fat is wrong you should seriously reconsider your worldview. RoH fans being mad at Morishima for squashing their kickpadded heros with his fat butt made his RoH run so much better. Don't even get me started about Buddy Rose trolling rubes with his weight etc.

 

If a wrestler is being heckled for anything, and the guy has any brains at all he will use it for great effect. This is not exclusive to weight. Is fans booing a guy for being too old age shaming? Is booing wrestlers who are too queer homophobic? It sure is, but I'd still rather watch Rene Lasartesse than RJ Brewer.

[El-P]

2 Cold Scorp probably wins anyway.

[rzombie1988]

 

 

If a wrestler is being heckled for anything, and the guy has any brains at all he will use it for great effect. This is not exclusive to weight. Is fans booing a guy for being too old age shaming? Is booing wrestlers who are too queer homophobic? It sure is, but I'd still rather watch Rene Lasartesse than RJ Brewer.

 

This is one of the problems with this mindset and I'm not directing this at Grimmas, but just in general in the PC culture. You can get into so much questioning when you start getting into this and "well what about ____?", that everything ends up as being a problem and offensive.

[Grimmas]

I guess I wasn't clear, as people are jumping down my throat, so I'll try to clarify. Then I guess I will move on from this topic.

 

There is a really fucked up attitude towards weight in society. By the definitions doctors use, a great athlete like Sidney Crosby is obese. The greatest hockey player in the world is obese, as is most athletes. We are in a situation where someone who has a perfect blood test and can run a 5K is told to lose 25 pounds by a doctor, based on an outdated system. They are called obese at an unhealthy level. How can that be?

 

In media, we have people calling anybody who isn't the ideal fat and mocking them. We have people praising people battling with anorexia for being the ideal body weight. 42% of women in athletics where appearance is valued deal with eating disorders. Heck, Big Show has been praised lately for having abs. Do we know what he did to get there? It may be dedication, it be may steroids, it may be an ED, we don't know.

 

This is all very messed up.

 

The term fat in itself is not bad, however the connotations it is used in society is pushing into a huge problem.

 

Not to mention the science that is not even clear on what a healthy weight is. Doctors push BMI, while many scientists have condemned it has a horrible measure. In fact there is evidence that weight may be based on set theory, i.e. your weight has an ideal limit for yourself and can vary a bit, but will naturally go to the state it wants. Whether that is deemed fat from society, skinny, or the ideal that is pushed in movies and magazines. Some people just naturally have a "fat" body and it's they can't do anything healthy to fix that.

 

Those are all major issues and when you call someone who is an amazing athlete fat, there is a subtle and damning message you are pushing.

 

My wife was exercising a lot (3-5 times a week), could run a 5k and went to the doctor with a perfect blood test. She was told, thanks to BMI, that she should lose 25 pounds. She did and then some and in the process an eating disorder emerged. Yes, she lost 25+ pounds and was less healthy. Yet, what happened? Everyone she met praised her. "You look great." "You look amazing." "You are my goal", Yes, she got praised for having an eating disorder and being an an unhealthy weight that could only be maintained by purging.

 

This is the society we live in. This is incredibly fucked up.

 

So, when you joke about Chris Hero being fat and saying he should be covered up or whatever, I don't think that is a very good thing to do.

 

I'm sorry if this offends you or you think I am a fucking idiot or a delicate snowflake who shouldn't be a mod and she be mocked. I will step down as a mod, if everybody wants. Whatever. Ridicule me if you want, go for it. The truth is you know someone with an eating disorder, they just aren't talking about it and you may be making it more difficult for them and that is fucked up.

[Loss]

PMd you, Grimmas.

[Grimmas]

PMd you, Grimmas.

Since I bought it up in my post, Charles asked me about it.

 

I'm stepping down as a mod, since it seems to be bothering people.

[stro]

We're not talking about some super athlete who is super dense with muscle and obese by BMI standards. In fact, I don't think BMI has ever been brought up when talking about a wrestler's physical appearance. When you go on your rants about WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY OVERWEIGHT and start bringing up BMI and acting like you don't know why people look at Kevin Owens and think he's overweight, you're just being deliberately obtuse for the sake of an argument so you can make a topic off grounds by annoying the shit out of everyone and shouting them down.

 

Over something so stupid by just ACKNOWLEDGING THE APPEARANCE of a human. Not even judging or shaming. Just mentioning how someone looks causes you to flip your shit and try to wear everyone down. In a form of entertainment where appearances might be the most important aspect of one's career. We might as well not be allowed to talk about a wrestler's selling ability at that point.

[Grimmas]

 

 

We're not talking about some super athlete who is super dense with muscle and obese by BMI standards. In fact, I don't think BMI has ever been brought up when talking about a wrestler's physical appearance. When you go on your rants about WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY OVERWEIGHT and start bringing up BMI and acting like you don't know why people look at Kevin Owens and think he's overweight, you're just being deliberately obtuse for the sake of an argument so you can make a topic off grounds by annoying the shit out of everyone and shouting them down.

 

You have NO FUCKING IDEA if Kevin Owens is over weight or not. Did you not read the shit about set theory of weight I wrote? Do you have any ideal what is ideal body weight is? How do you know he's overweight, because he has fat on him? By overweight you are implying he's unhealthy or could be healthier. Do you know that?

 

Of course you don't, that is why it's a problem to state that.

 

If you just mean he's overweight by the standard that he has fat on him, then so what? Why even bring that up, what is the point?

 

Maybe you mean if he lost weight or got more toned he'd be a better in ring wrestler? Ok, maybe? You have no evidence in any way if that's true.

 

Be more clear what you mean by overweight.

 

 

Over something so stupid by just ACKNOWLEDGING THE APPEARANCE of a human. Not even judging or shaming. Just mentioning how someone looks causes you to flip your shit and try to wear everyone down. In a form of entertainment where appearances might be the most important aspect of one's career. We might as well not be allowed to talk about a wrestler's selling ability at that point.

 

You might want to re-read the thread. Someone stated that wrestling fans don't care about a wrestler's weight at all (or having some fat on them) and I challenged them on that.

 

Of course you can ACKNOWLEDGE AN APPEARANCE. Maybe you should actually listen to what I'm saying, instead of getting SUPER OFFENDED by what I'm saying.

 

On the other hand, how you acknowledge someone's appearance has connotations which you may not even intend. Don't act like saying this guy's fat is some innocent statement.

In no way did I say, don't acknowledge someone's appearance. However, keep building your straw men.

[stro]

Jesus Christ you're impossibly and unbearably dense on this topic, no doubt intentionally, because you know what the fuck people mean when they say Kevin Owens or Chris Hero look overweight. They have giant jiggly guts, which only occurs when you have excess body fat. They LOOK overweight. Maybe they by some medical definition aren't, but they look like they are, and that's why people say it.

 

While you're accusing me if building straw men, you're bringing up BMI (never brought up), the argument that people are arguing someone would be a better wrestler if they lost weight (never brought up, if anything most people agree Hero is a better wrestler with the weight), how people shouldn't celebrate Big Show for getting in better shape because he might have an eating disorder (never brought up), hypothetical hurt feelings of hypothetical people who hypothetically might read someone say something about a wrestler's looks that could be hypothetically construed as negative which would then hypothetically cause them to have an eating disorder.

 

When it comes to this subject, you're a ridiculous person, Grim. Absolutely silly. You have multiple people in here talking about their weight issues and how they in fact people hadn't walked on egg shells about their weight and how talking about the weight of a wrestler doesn't offend them, yet you completely ignore and invalidate those people, who aren't hypothetical future "said something mean about a wrestler's gut" induced eating disorder patients. You know, the actual people you keep talking about, they're in this thread talking to you and you're ignoring them so you can continue to "call out" people. It's nonsense.

 

You're so far down the rabbit hole that not only do you not want people to acknowledge the bodies of overweight appearing wrestlers, but you also don't want people to acknowledge or praise the bodies of people who got in better shape because they might have been fat shamed or have an eating disorder.

[joeg]

I agree with stro for the first time. Hero's weight gain has helped him. It gave him a unique look, one that separates him from everybody else as opposed to him looking just like everybody else. I truly believe that.

[Jetlag]

There is a really fucked up attitude towards weight in society. By the definitions doctors use, a great athlete like Sidney Crosby is obese. The greatest hockey player in the world is obese, as is most athletes. We are in a situation where someone who has a perfect blood test and can run a 5K is told to lose 25 pounds by a doctor, based on an outdated system. They are called obese at an unhealthy level. How can that be?

 

I don't mean to prod you further, but (according to wikipedia) Crosby is 180 cm and has 91 kg. Chris Hero is 196 cm and (supposedly) 120 kg, Owens is 183 cm and 121 kg. If someone wants to argue all 3 guys are overweight by some standard, they will have to consider that all 3 are overweight to a different degree. Besides that it's never a good idea to use an athlete like Crosby, an extreme outlier compared to the general public, as an example. It's also debatable whether the athlete is a great role model at all considering athletes often end up with shot bodies after their careers. The same also goes for extraordinary tall people let alone wrestlers. I'm sure Kevin Owens joints and body will eventually tell whether he lived at his ideal weight, altough he's a guy who got slammed into mats, dropped on his head and had ladders chucked at him for years of his life so it's probably ridiculous to argue about health risks anyways. Eitherways it's ridiculous to argue that people who call a dude that's 40 kgs above the average male weight fat are somehow feeding into other people's eating disorders.

[Grimmas]

Jesus Christ you're impossibly and unbearably dense on this topic, no doubt intentionally, because you know what the fuck people mean when they say Kevin Owens or Chris Hero look overweight. They have giant jiggly guts, which only occurs when you have excess body fat. They LOOK overweight. Maybe they by some medical definition aren't, but they look like they are, and that's why people say it.

 

Ok, they look overweight, even if may be perfectly healthy. What does pointing it out and mocking it achieve? Le'ts not pretend people don't mock them for it.

 

 

While you're accusing me if building straw men, you're bringing up BMI (never brought up), the argument that people are arguing someone would be a better wrestler if they lost weight (never brought up, if anything most people agree Hero is a better wrestler with the weight), how people shouldn't celebrate Big Show for getting in better shape because he might have an eating disorder (never brought up), hypothetical hurt feelings of hypothetical people who hypothetically might read someone say something about a wrestler's looks that could be hypothetically construed as negative which would then hypothetically cause them to have an eating disorder.

 

Bringing up BMI was just a reference to show you how stupid the term overweight is. You may mean they have fat on it, other's use it a term to mean unhealthy. It's not a strawman to bring up BMI if you are talking about overweight, since that is what doctors use.

 

As for your other comment, all these hypotheticals well this is an attitude that is harming people. Look into anyone who talks about ED's and you'll see how hurtful media and people's perceptions of it feed the ED. It's not really hypothetical.

 

I brought up Big Show, just as an example. We really have no idea if he's healthy or not. As an example, my wife lost a lot of weight and got all this praise, a lot of the weight was lost in an unhealthy manner and the praise only feed the ED. So yeah, you never really known. That's a real world example of how complicated it is. I'm a little weary of praising people for losing weight, because there is a not so tiny chance that they are actually less healthy now and praising them will only cause further harm. You can praise Big Show for having abs now and it may be the correct response, I don't really know nor do you.

 

 

When it comes to this subject, you're a ridiculous person, Grim. Absolutely silly. You have multiple people in here talking about their weight issues and how they in fact people hadn't walked on egg shells about their weight and how talking about the weight of a wrestler doesn't offend them, yet you completely ignore and invalidate those people, who aren't hypothetical future "said something mean about a wrestler's gut" induced eating disorder patients. You know, the actual people you keep talking about, they're in this thread talking to you and you're ignoring them so you can continue to "call out" people. It's nonsense.

EDIT:

So, somehow my last part disappeared.

The issues are, I know over a dozen people who deal with ED's, women particularly. This talk you are doing is harmful and they would tell you that. There is a problem where most people hide their ED's, but this type of talk only feeds it.

If you want to learn more about this subject, I would suggest reading or listening to some women with ED's to gain a perspective on this. Someone like Kati Morton on youtube is really good.

[joeg]

Chris Hero is 265 my ass, he's easily 300. I'm 6'2 310, the last time I saw him in person he was 2 inches taller and every bit as fat as me. Owens I'd believe is 267 because he's so short. Owens is a lot skinnier than he used to be, it wouldn't surprise me if he was pushing 325 when Cornette sent him home from ROH.

 

And regardless of how you measure obesity neck to waist (what the military uses), BMI (what doctors use because its easiest), body fat percent (what's used at the NFL combine), etc Crosby wouldn't qualify at his size as obese in any of those... his BMI would qualify as overweight, but BMI is always skewed for athletes. BMI is only a sliding curve comparing weight to height, it really is the least reliable measure of obesity there is when discussing athletes. Body fat percent measured by skin calipers is probably far more accurate.... Owens and Hero would not do good on a skin calipers test.

[Grimmas]

Chris Hero is 265 my ass, he's easily 300. I'm 6'2 310, the last time I saw him in person he was 2 inches taller and every bit as fat as me. Owens I'd believe is 267 because he's so short. Owens is a lot skinnier than he used to be, it wouldn't surprise me if he was pushing 325 when Cornette sent him home from ROH.

 

And regardless of how you measure obesity neck to waist (what the military uses), BMI (what doctors use because its easiest), body fat percent (what's used at the NFL combine), etc Crosby wouldn't qualify at his size as obese in any of those... his BMI would qualify as overweight, but BMI is always skewed for athletes. BMI is only a sliding curve comparing weight to height, it really is the least reliable measure of obesity there is when discussing athletes. Body fat percent measured by skin calipers is probably far more accurate.... Owens and Hero would not do good on a skin calipers test.

Sorry, Crosby overweight you are correct, it's been a while since I looked at it.

 

The industry really needs to switch from weight to health.

[stro]

 

Jesus Christ you're impossibly and unbearably dense on this topic, no doubt intentionally, because you know what the fuck people mean when they say Kevin Owens or Chris Hero look overweight. They have giant jiggly guts, which only occurs when you have excess body fat. They LOOK overweight. Maybe they by some medical definition aren't, but they look like they are, and that's why people say it.

 

Ok, they look overweight, even if may be perfectly healthy. What does pointing it out and mocking it achieve? Le'ts not pretend people don't mock them for it.

 

 

 

 

Well, you can't seem to understand the difference between pointing it out and mocking, which is how all these arguments with you go. My mother was anorexic in high school and after the birth of my sister. I am familiar with the subject. Many people have eating disorders. You aren't in some unique situation to know multiple people with one or be married to someone who has had one. By your logic of talking about wrestler's weight can cause eating disorders, I guess we should pretend the Warlord never existed, because he might give men body dysmorphia.

 

Something you fail to understand here is that pro wrestlers and other professional athletes aren't normal people. They don't get comparisons to normal people. Pointing out, mocking, or praising the body of a pro athlete is not the same as doing it to a random person on the street. No one looks at the Warlord or Scott Steiner or Shaq or Bo Jackson or Mike Tyson and think they're the normal average attainable body types. Find me someone that developed an eating disorder because someone said Shaq got fat.

 

99% of people are never going to have the body Finn Balor has even if they put in the same amount of effort and care he puts into his body. Should we not talk about how many abs he has because someone watching at home will never know what it's like to have an 8 pack and 5% body fat? How do you feel about Rick Rude being inducted into the HOF when his shtick was being super in shape and calling the fans fat?

[Grimmas]

Stro,

 

I'm not claiming to have special knowledge. If you feel the way people talk about celebrities has no effect on regular people, well I just disagree. I've seen lots of evidence to the contrary and I'd urge you to read and learn more. I can give you some links if you'd like.

[stro]

I 100% do not believe that someone will be driven to an eating disorder by a discussion about the appearances of Chris Hero, Kevin Owens, or Bull James on the Pro Wrestling Only message board.

[rzombie1988]

Chris Hero is 265 my ass, he's easily 300. I'm 6'2 310, the last time I saw him in person he was 2 inches taller and every bit as fat as me. Owens I'd believe is 267 because he's so short. Owens is a lot skinnier than he used to be, it wouldn't surprise me if he was pushing 325 when Cornette sent him home from ROH.

Agreed. Hero is easily 300+, especially on his 6'2-6'5 frame.

[Grimmas]

I 100% do not believe that someone will be driven to an eating disorder by a discussion about the appearances of Chris Hero, Kevin Owens, or Bull James on the Pro Wrestling Only message board.

Ok, Is that what I said?

 

I said the way we talk about celebrities bodies either adds to or pushes people towards ED's. Do you disagree with that?

If you do, then fine. I'd urge you to read up on it.

 

If you agree with my statement, then why continue it at all, even if it's a tiny subset that may not be harming anyone? It's the same practice that is harmful.

[sek69]

One thing I think that is kind of lost here is while yes, fat shaming is a shitty thing to do, pro wrestling is largely a cosmetic business so commenting on someone's size (or lack of in the case of someone like Cheeseburger) is kind of different than some men's rights activist troll type calling all women fat on Twitter.

 

Like it or not, the largest and most powerful company in the industry has two guys at the top who have a fetish for bodybuilder types and anyone not meeting that standard seems to have to work 5x as hard to get to the starting level a big jacked up guy would be.

 

Things are changing slightly, of course. We're past the days where you wouldn't even get a glance from the WWF if you didn't have a physique that looked like you could explode at any minute, but there's a reason Triple H still scouts for talent at fitness contests.

 

IMO, the bigger issue to me was always height rather than weight. It just looks silly matching up guys with like a foot difference in height and 75+ pounds difference in weight when the idea is to pretend it's a real athletic contest. When they have someone like Sasha beat Nia Jax with a rollup they might as well have a neon sign up broadcasting how fake this is.

[rzombie1988]

 

IMO, the bigger issue to me was always height rather than weight. It just looks silly matching up guys with like a foot difference in height and 75+ pounds difference in weight when the idea is to pretend it's a real athletic contest. When they have someone like Sasha beat Nia Jax with a rollup they might as well have a neon sign up broadcasting how fake this is.

 

Agreed, but it's funny because even in real life fights, size doesn't mean an automatic win, and that's in pretty much every code minus boxing whether it be Sumo, K-1 or MMA. If the guys are even enough though, the heavier will guy will likely pull ahead.

 

I think having too many big guys in a promotion is just as big of an issue as having too many small guys. It's really best just to have a bunch of normal people and have one or two really big and small guys so those guys can stay over and you don't end up with physical mismatches.

 

This is one of the things female wrestlers have going for them. For the most part, the girls only have a few inches between each other and the weights aren't that big of a difference like it constantly is and is pushed as with the men. I highly doubt Vince ever says "Banks is just too small" or "I gotta push ___ because she's big", but this is common with the men.

[C.S.]

 

Nobody dislikes Bubba as a wrestler - we just think he's a bad representative for wrestling based on his ridiculous Twitter behavior.

Oh plenty of people dislike Bubba as a wrestler. Dude was a liberty taking sack of shit with younger talent and was still trying it in the recent WWE run until Big E fucked his world up one match. Bully Ray was (initially) a pretty great character, but he certainly didn't have any great matches with the gimmick.

 

 

Fair enough... Hadn't heard about those incidents, but it makes sense that Bubba Ray is a classless sack of trash inside the ring too.

 

As for Chris Hero, I don't think him getting rehired at his current weight somehow disproves that he got fired for his weight before. All it indicates is that WWE's priorities have shifted.

 

I'm generally happy that WWE is finally open to showcasing more body types. The cookie cutter muscle factory look that we got for ten years sucked, limited the product, limited the types of wrestlers we got, and limited the types of matches we got. With that said, I still think people need to be cast properly. Joe as a "killer" doesn't work for me at all. Joe as a confident asshole bully who has bitten off more than he can chew makes more sense to me.

 

That doesn't mean I think heavier people can't ever be "killers." Vader was a convincing wrecking machine, and he's bigger than Joe, Hero, etc.

[stro]

 

 

IMO, the bigger issue to me was always height rather than weight. It just looks silly matching up guys with like a foot difference in height and 75+ pounds difference in weight when the idea is to pretend it's a real athletic contest. When they have someone like Sasha beat Nia Jax with a rollup they might as well have a neon sign up broadcasting how fake this is.

 

Agreed, but it's funny because even in real life fights, size doesn't mean an automatic win, and that's in pretty much every code minus boxing whether it be Sumo, K-1 or MMA. If the guys are even enough though, the heavier will guy will likely pull ahead.

 

I think having too many big guys in a promotion is just as big of an issue as having too many small guys. It's really best just to have a bunch of normal people and have one or two really big and small guys so those guys can stay over and you don't end up with physical mismatches.

 

This is one of the things female wrestlers have going for them. For the most part, the girls only have a few inches between each other and the weights aren't that big of a difference like it constantly is and is pushed as with the men. I highly doubt Vince ever says "Banks is just too small" or "I gotta push ___ because she's big", but this is common with the men.

 

I do have to wonder if Charlotte would get the push she's had if she was Sasha's size.

[Jimmy Redman]

The women still deal with size discrimination affecting pushes, but more often it goes the other way. Men get pushed if they're bigger or get bigger, whereas women are more likely to be punished for being big or getting bigger.

 

Unless you're a monster or athletic freak type like Charlotte/Chyna/Nia/etc., they want the girls to be fit and thin and not have excess body fat. Female wrestlers also use steroids and develop addictions to diet pills, eating disorders, etc. in an attempt to maintain that look on the road. They're also more likely to be publicly shamed by the company for their appearance than a man. Look at how they portrayed Vickie. Look at how they portrayed Molly Holly post-heel turn. Look at how they treated Mickie James in 2009 when they felt she had gained weight.

 

They don't care that Charlotte is as big as she is. But they'd care if Sasha put on 20 lbs. and looked flabby.

[PhilTLL]

 

 

Nobody dislikes Bubba as a wrestler - we just think he's a bad representative for wrestling based on his ridiculous Twitter behavior.

Oh plenty of people dislike Bubba as a wrestler. Dude was a liberty taking sack of shit with younger talent and was still trying it in the recent WWE run until Big E fucked his world up one match. Bully Ray was (initially) a pretty great character, but he certainly didn't have any great matches with the gimmick.

Ooh, was this on TV?