Flair/Hogan matches

[Hegs]

I just listened to JJ Dillon's podcast about Flair and Hogan in WWF. His take was it underperformed and that they didn't have great chemistry in the ring. What's the consensus? Bad chemistry bad booking or both? I don't think that Vince knew what to do with Flair other than the Royal Rumble win. He could have kept belt on Flair at Wrestlemania and slowly built to a big Hogan Flair match at the following Wrestlemania. I didn't necessarily think they had bad matches from what I saw from MSG. The WCW matches were too lopsided to be beyond average.

[sek69]

I don't think the two ever gelled IMO. Vince knew enough about Flair to build an entire Rumble around him and give him title runs in an era where most former NWA champions were jobbed out or given ridiculous gimmicks just to prove that the WWF was better.

[The Thread Killer]

The story I've always heard was that the WWF tried running Flair vs. Hogan on a couple of house shows to try out the match, and that it didn't draw (I want to say this was in San Francisco but I could be wrong) and that the two of them didn't have any in-ring chemistry.

 

Depending on where they tried the house show matches, I can see them not drawing. If they ran Hogan vs. Flair in a northern market where the NWA had little exposure, casual fans might not care about Flair or even really know who he was. I can see that. In Toronto, we only knew about him through the Apter mags mostly. We didn't get barely any NWA TV here at that time. If they tried to run in a more traditional southern market, I can see fans not coming because they don't like the WWF, Hogan, or they thought Flair had sold out by going to the WWF.

 

What I don't buy is the argument that the match wouldn't have worked, due to "bad chemistry" because anybody who saw Bash at the Beach 94 could plainly see that if booked correctly, the match worked fine. More than fine. Go back and watch that, I say it still holds up as damn good match. I know Flair claimed on his WWE DVD that he didn't know why the main event to Wrestlemania 8 was changed, and Hogan said the same thing on the Monday Night War episode that covered Hogan coming to WCW and their Bash and the Beach match.

 

They could be lying, of course. Maybe one or both of them know why they never had a program in the WWF and they aren't saying.

 

You could speculate that neither guy wanted to lose, but if that was the case they could have easily done a screwjob finish - just like they ended up doing in the Hogan/Sid match that actually ended up being the main event of WM8. Plus, Flair showed repeatedly over the years that he didn't have an ego about losing to Hogan.

 

You could argue that Vince didn't think Flair was a big enough name or a draw, but if that was the case, like sek said - why did he put Flair over like a million bucks in the Royal Rumble? And why would he have put Flair in the other half of the double main event at WM8?

 

The fact that they never had that match in the WWF never made sense to me. Does anybody know what Meltzer's theory is? Did Prichard ever cover this on one of his podcasts?

[Tenese Sarwieh]

They had ok chemistry but most their matches had far too much overbooking in them.

[sek69]

The one houseshow match that was in LA made it to 24/7 (and I think it's on the Network too) was OK, but the fan reaction was kind of meh since it wasn't like LA was a big Flair market.

 

Plus you'd have to think there's no way Hulk would want to do even an house show match with Flair anywhere in a market the NWA had a presence in.

[Ricky Jackson]

I talked about this with my pal Landy on a pod recently, and both of us agreed that Flair vs Hogan at Mania was never the plan and has only ever existed as fanboy fantasy. Most accounts from those in the know say that Hogan vs Sid was practically set in stone the day after Mania 7. Flair fell onto Vince's lap in the summer and they ran with the program vs Hogan in the fall. I really believe it was meant to just be a house show run, as crazy as it might sound to hardcore fans. But remember, house show $ was still a huge part of the company income (still is today I guess but what draws fans to the shows is different). Landy also made a good point that at the time, the Mania main event was always a fresh match that hadn't already made the rounds on the circuit, which points to Hogan vs Sid not vs Flair

[The Thread Killer]

I talked about this with my pal Landy on a pod recently, and both of us agreed that Flair vs Hogan at Mania was never the plan and has only ever existed as fanboy fantasy.

 

They actually announced that Hogan vs. Flair was going to be the Main Event of WM8. Like on TV, and everything. I remember it very clearly. Then they changed it. Why would they announce it and promote it if it was never really the plan? That sounds like more than a fanboy fantasy to me.

[The Thread Killer]

The one houseshow match that was in LA made it to 24/7 (and I think it's on the Network too) was OK, but the fan reaction was kind of meh since it wasn't like LA was a big Flair market.

 

Plus you'd have to think there's no way Hulk would want to do even an house show match with Flair anywhere in a market the NWA had a presence in.

 

Was the LA match any good? Like I said, I don't care what anybody says, that Bash at the Beach 94 match holds up. It's a good match and I don't think I'm the only person who thinks that. Even some other PWO members thought so.

[Ricky Jackson]

 

 

I talked about this with my pal Landy on a pod recently, and both of us agreed that Flair vs Hogan at Mania was never the plan and has only ever existed as fanboy fantasy.

They actually announced that Hogan vs. Flair was going to be the Main Event of WM8. Like on TV, and everything. I remember it very clearly. Then they changed it. Why would they announce it and promote it if it was never really the plan? That sounds like more than a fanboy fantasy to me.

It was part of the angle to make Sid pissed off that he was passed over for Hogan and give him more reason to turn on him

[goc]

They both had their set formula for a good match and those two formulas just didn't gel. Hogan was all about getting beat on until it was time for him to make a comeback while Flair's formula was more about letting the babyface look better than him until a time limit draw or screwy finish.

[PeteF3]

Yeah, if Hogan vs. Flair for WM was ever the plan, that was changed far, far before Hogan was announced as #1 contender. The turnaround from Hogan vs. Flair being announced to the double main event was, like, a week or two. Probably the same taping cycle. The Hogan-Flair announcement in the spring was just a red herring/set-up for Sid.

[CarpetCrawler]

Vince promised Sid the main event of Wrestlemania 8 with Hogan as a way to get him to sign with him in 1991, so there's that as well. And yeah I know Vince isn't exactly known for keeping promises, but I have to figure that Sid and Hogan was clearly the endgame plan almost immediately after Sid became available.

[Hegs]

I heard somewhere that Vince had Wrestlemania mapped out months in advance. JJ discussed Syd being the plan from the time he was signed. I think if they kept Flair strong with the title on him and Hogan came back after Summer Slam and chased for the title, the program and Flair's run might have been more memorable.

[peachchaos]

Most accounts from those in the know say that Hogan vs Sid was practically set in stone the day after Mania 7. Flair fell onto Vince's lap in the summer and they ran with the program vs Hogan in the fall. I really believe it was meant to just be a house show run, as crazy as it might sound to hardcore fans.

 

The house show run coincided with the Hogan-Undertaker feud and fallout which involved Flair, so it made sense in that regard as well. I think it's pretty clear that Hogan-Sid was the plan all along. Certainly the booking from Rumble to WM8 is a clear line aside from the press conference fake-out.

[Matt D]

Sid was hugely over as a face when he came back in January 92.

[Strummer]

Dave said on lapsed fan that Flair v Hogan was never the plan even though early on .Flair thought it was.

 

Flair was a little discouraged their first match went only 13 minutes or something. And Hogan told him "we'll save the big one for Mania". And Dave thought to himself "you ain't gettin' mania"

[SirEdger]

I talked about this with my pal Landy on a pod recently, and both of us agreed that Flair vs Hogan at Mania was never the plan and has only ever existed as fanboy fantasy. Most accounts from those in the know say that Hogan vs Sid was practically set in stone the day after Mania 7. Flair fell onto Vince's lap in the summer and they ran with the program vs Hogan in the fall. I really believe it was meant to just be a house show run, as crazy as it might sound to hardcore fans. But remember, house show $ was still a huge part of the company income (still is today I guess but what draws fans to the shows is different). Landy also made a good point that at the time, the Mania main event was always a fresh match that hadn't already made the rounds on the circuit, which points to Hogan vs Sid not vs Flair

 

But didn't Sid sign with WWF until the summer of 1991 (the first appearance I recall seeing Sid in WWF was Summerslam 1991 as the special enforcer in the 2-on-3 Handicap Match)? If that's the case, was Vince that confident to lure Sid away from WCW to plan this from the day after Wrestlemania VII?

[Victator]

Sid main eventing Wrestlemania was in Sid's contract. It was the only thing Sid really cared about since WCW was paying well and he is going to be pushed anywhere he goes.

Though Vince could not have expected to have Flair fall in his lap.

I think they always had good matchs but their styles were different enough it put a ceiling on their quality.

[iamthedoctor]

 

I talked about this with my pal Landy on a pod recently, and both of us agreed that Flair vs Hogan at Mania was never the plan and has only ever existed as fanboy fantasy.

 

They actually announced that Hogan vs. Flair was going to be the Main Event of WM8. Like on TV, and everything. I remember it very clearly. Then they changed it. Why would they announce it and promote it if it was never really the plan? That sounds like more than a fanboy fantasy to me.

 

 

Theres been this rumour for years Ive heard going all the way back to 1992 that the plan for Mania 8 was Hogan/Flair but Sid played his card saying he was guaranteed the Main Event slot at Wrestlemania so that being the reason it happened because of his contract. Then you hear the stuff about it being changed because Hogan wanted to do films.

 

But I also heard they wanted to build Hogan/Flair for a solid year and actually do the match at Wrestlemania 9 instead but things happened where Flair wanted to go back to WCW and Hulk was gone to Hollywood.

 

No idea whats true and what isn't as not sure if any shoot interviews covered it.

[Dooley]

I believe Vince promised Sid the Mania slot, I've never seen anything that makes me believe that Vince put it in writing.

 

WM8 was strange in a lot of ways. If Hogan-Sid is your desired main, why not make it for the title? If Flair-Savage is going to be underneath anyway, why put the title there and make it look "less than"? If Hogan-Flair is delivered to you on a silver platter, why not take it? If Hulk is going to bail shortly after, you still have the option of sending the folks home happy at WM8 and then having Sid/Flair/whoever beat Hulk at MSG or the card of your choice.

 

I think Hogan and Flair had good chemistry as opponents, with Bash '94 being my personal fave of theirs. There was a reason WCW kept running that match into the ground, people still enjoyed it. While there may have been a "feeling out process" in their early WWF matches, I don't see how they couldn't have come up with something good for WM8 if they knew that was their endgame.

 

The story about Vince pulling the plug based off of the first couple of matches and what they drew never really clicked with me. What are the other situations where Vince has given up on a main event heel after a couple of house shows? Even Hennig got a full house show run to prove his mettle, and business for those shows was widely considered to be disappointing.

[Loss]

While WCW didn't book the feud perfectly, they drew and had strong matches there. To me, their lack of chemistry is being overstated.

[iamthedoctor]

I believe Vince promised Sid the Mania slot, I've never seen anything that makes me believe that Vince put it in writing.

 

WM8 was strange in a lot of ways. If Hogan-Sid is your desired main, why not make it for the title? If Flair-Savage is going to be underneath anyway, why put the title there and make it look "less than"? If Hogan-Flair is delivered to you on a silver platter, why not take it? If Hulk is going to bail shortly after, you still have the option of sending the folks home happy at WM8 and then having Sid/Flair/whoever beat Hulk at MSG or the card of your choice.

 

I think Hogan and Flair had good chemistry as opponents, with Bash '94 being my personal fave of theirs. There was a reason WCW kept running that match into the ground, people still enjoyed it. While there may have been a "feeling out process" in their early WWF matches, I don't see how they couldn't have come up with something good for WM8 if they knew that was their endgame.

 

The story about Vince pulling the plug based off of the first couple of matches and what they drew never really clicked with me. What are the other situations where Vince has given up on a main event heel after a couple of house shows? Even Hennig got a full house show run to prove his mettle, and business for those shows was widely considered to be disappointing.

 

Looking back at Wrestlemania 8 I think Hogan/Sid HAD to go on last, I know alot of people rave on about how Flair/Savage should have gone on last but Warrior returning was a massive deal and him returning needed to be at the end of the show.

 

For me personally I wasent all that pleased that Flair won the belt at the Rumble as felt the way WWE portrayed him as a new star coming into WWF he seemed to have gotten the belt way too quickly. But honestly thinking back I don't know what the best scenario would be I mean sure I wanted Hogan to win but then if hes leaving how do you figure Wrestlemania sending fans home happy with Hulk losing the belt or just keep it on him when hes in Hollywood, ideally Hogan beats Ric for the title but alot of different scenarios.

 

I don't see Sid as World Champ being a ideal choice either as he is too fresh to the WWF audience and well he got busted in April anyway.

 

Its a difficult one to do because likely the world champ would be a face at Mania whoever walks out with the title but from a stand point I'd have loved Piper to walk out of the Rumble with both belts as they mentioned it several times.

[Loss]

There's also that Ric Flair jumping in 1985 or 1986 changes the wrestling landscape and is about as huge as it gets. Ric Flair jumping in 1988 is a really big acquisition that helps Vince get to his 2001 monopoly 13 years early. Ric Flair jumping in 1991 is a major star who has passed his peak as a draw years earlier, but who still has a lot to offer because of the fresh matchups with the WWF's top stars of the time. Still the biggest outside name the WWF can pick up, but the WWF is so far ahead of the competition by 1991 that it's not anywhere near as big as it would have been five years earlier.

[Matt D]

I think Vince made a mistake in depushing him and letting him go. One advantage to Flair in 93 is that hes a relatively steroid-proof Star.

[Hegs]

I think part of the disappointment especially in drawing houses was Flair needed a 1984 type Piper build up to traditional WWF fans. In the South people didn't want to see Hogan manhandle and leg drop Flair. They definitely started right with Flair getting some wins, even if screw job over Piper and winning the Rumble.