All Elite Wrestling

[The Thread Killer]

15 minutes ago, El-P said:

Plus, if you need a jobber, Silas Young is right there (yeah, I'm being sarcastic and did not get that one at all either).

To quote Conrad Thompson: “I love you for that.”

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, Dav'oh said:

But then, I share @The Thread Killer's old-school tastes. And I don't mind accusations that it's still real to me. In the spirit of which...

Whenever I get into a discussion with somebody about Lucha, I always end up remembering a kind of weird example from my own past as a Pro Wrestling fan.

I don’t know if any of you guys have seen the early era Pancrase promotion from Japan. It was promoted as “Hybrid Wrestling” and was basically just grappling and submission holds. They didn’t even allow closed fist strikes of any kind.

As soon as I saw it, I was hooked on that shit. I was a huge fan of Masakatsu Funaki, Ken (Wayne) Shamrock, Bas Fucking Rutten, and of course a very young Minoru Suzuki who was rocking a truly impressive pompadour. I could (and did) watch that shit all day.

They were really going for as much realism as they could get. At the time there were even some fans who thought the matches were legit shoot fights. I distinctly remember discussing it back at DVDVR and some guy saying he thought it was boring as hell and stupid. I can actually remember the guy saying “Why would you want to watch Ken Shamrock rolling around on the ground with some Japanese guy for half an hour, grunting and sweating while he occasionally slaps the guy?”

Fair point, I guess. Pancrase was kind of the polar opposite of Lucha Libre, they were trying to simulate an actual grappling match at the expense of all other possible traditional pro wrestling tropes. Some people couldn’t get into it, and even thought it was stupid, but I loved it. Conversely, Lucha Libre doesn’t really depend on any sort of reliance on a simulation of a legitimate physical fight, you just have to totally suspend disbelief and enjoy the aerobatic show.

I don’t think one style is good and the other bad, and I don’t think one is right and the other wrong, I just know that I prefer my rasslin to be as realistic as possible, as absurd as that might sound when you are discussing Pro Wrestling.

 

[Embrodak]

I don’t think it’s absurd. Even if Josie Riesman is right and kayfabe was just a myth that promoters used to enthrall the performers, not something that had mass audience buy-in at any point after the early 1900s or so (fucking Evan Lewis and Farmer John got called out faking it in like 1895 for fuck’s sake), the fact that the *performers* took it seriously made it easier to lose yourself and really buy in to the drama. Junkyard Dog really looked like he got caustic chemicals in his eyes because the performers planned it out in a meticulous way that you have to work hard to see through the seams of. I think the Bill Watterson quote about the delicacy of newspaper comics is applicable to wrestling, too. There’s a reason most old-timers hated VKM playing for the cheap seats with an even cartoonier version of wrestling than his old man put on, and there’s a reason that wrecking kayfabe only created a boost that lasted four years or so, followed by a steady and ongoing decline in the popularity of the art. It makes more money now than ever because of changes in the media market, and there might be as many or more total viewers globally as there were in America in 1999 because of international streaming, but at this point, let’s be real, it’s just a particularly inglorious branch of nerd culture writ large. Any specific version of it - The Elite’s postmodern spectacle wrestling, CMFTR’s neo-Bretism, WWE’s house main event style that is somewhere in between the two, outright comedy wrestling, deathmatch wrestling, lucha libre - probably can’t survive on their own in America, though any particular element can probably be excised; altogether, they sustain just enough of a market to keep things going, but for my tastes, they really do clash in a way that makes it hard for me to ever lose myself in what is happening, especially when there is no coordination to make sure that, say, a match that really needs blood isn’t having the audience desensitized to it by a totally gratuitous use of blood in an earlier match. Lucha libre in Mexico is at least consistently fantastical, such that the cooperative spots and unreality don’t really jump out at you as much.

[Dav'oh]

I feel we're super-quick to anoint Innovative Acrobat #512 barely a month after anointing #511 barely three months on from anointing #511 without subjecting their work to further scrutiny. Yes Komander's metrics and kayfabe achievements are...mentionable...but we're having to allow if not make excuses for his style, which I don't necessarily consider pure Lucha.

He has to lose to White so I don't know why they booked this. White's the one you want at the top of the card in the World Title mix, Komander's your "spectacle" wrestler. And he is over because of his moves, you're right brother El-P, but we all know a)you really need more than moveztildeexclamationmark because b) what happens when we've seen all the flips and shiny new #513 comes along. 

[Big Pete]

I can't keep up, is AR Fox #511 or is that Vikingo?

Jay White vs. Komander maybe the most polarising match since Tony Nese vs. Bryan Danielson. Like Nese/Danielson the world will keep turning after the match is over but I don't know, it's like celebrating Christmas in June, aren't we a little early here? They'll really need to bring it, moreso than the Sammy/Komander match.

[NintendoLogic]

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

At the time there were even some fans who thought the matches were legit shoot fights.

They were. Some of the fights were fixed and others had planned spots, but I'm not aware of any that were pure works.

[El-P]

Über patronizing tone aside (Acrobat #512 ? Really now ? Sounds like Larry Zbysko failing to put over Rey Jr. on commentary in 1996), Vikingo has been talked about for years now as his generation new prodigal son. Also "pure lucha" doesn't exist, apart in the mind of gatekeepers (and oh boy lucha libre sure has had a shitload of them over the years, and no, I won't say no more about this). 

And to get back to the point I made a few pages ago, I dunno what happened, people are either way to spoiled or way too grumpy these days, but the mere fact Jay White vs Komander even happens would have been like "HOLY FUCK THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER" 25 years ago if it happened on Thunder. I have no idea how anyone can actually bitch about something like this... I don't even expect anything particulary great (and who knows, maybe it will be, never doubt Jay White), as you can't ask for much more of a clash of style. I dunno, it's just... fun, that it happens and that I get to see it.

[The Thread Killer]

4 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

They were. Some of the fights were fixed and others had planned spots, but I'm not aware of any that were pure works.

Ken Shamrock finally admitted years later that at least some of the early Pancrase fights were worked. When he got asked during his RF Shoot Interview if Pancrase fights were fixed, he replied with the old “I’m not at liberty to say” which is carny for “yes.” But he finally came clean in that (outstanding) biography written by Jonathan Snowden a couple of years ago.

I know that most people hate Snowden now due to his outrageous and highly combative online persona, but way back in the day at DVDVR he was actually really nice to me. (If I remember correctly his posting handle there was “Killer Clown” or something like that.) There was a thread where we were discussing early worked shoots, shoot style and MMA and he actually sent me a PM with some great match suggestions and advice regarding where to get them.

Point is, like Snowden or not, his biography of Ken Shamrock is one of the most comprehensive, thoroughly researched and well written sports biographies I have ever read. And in that book, he confirms that some of the early Pancrease fights were worked.

For what it’s worth, I think when they moved to having fights in the cage and using gloves and allowing strikes, they went 100% legit.

[Embrodak]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Über patronizing tone aside (Acrobat #512 ? Really now ? Sounds like Larry Zbysko failing to put over Rey Jr. on commentary in 1996), Vikingo has been talked about for years now as his generation new prodigal son. Also "pure lucha" doesn't exist, apart in the mind of gatekeepers (and oh boy lucha libre sure has had a shitload of them over the years, and no, I won't say no more about this). 

And to get back to the point I made a few pages ago, I dunno what happened, people are either way to spoiled or way too grumpy these days, but the mere fact Jay White vs Komander even happens would have been like "HOLY FUCK THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER" 25 years ago if it happened on Thunder. I have no idea how anyone can actually bitch about something like this... I don't even expect anything particulary great (and who knows, maybe it will be, never doubt Jay White), as you can't ask for much more of a clash of style. I dunno, it's just... fun, that it happens and that I get to see it.

I just don’t care for the highly cooperative flippy-doos, brother. I’m going to write a long-ass essay for my friend’s lit mag tying together the new Riesman book with Robert Putnam’s “Bowling Alone”, as well as whatever dilettantish commie and Marxy nonsense I have floating around in my head, but the long and short of it is I see a lot more to like in the eras where the wrestlers generally tried to make it look legit and had credibility with the general populace than the current one where many don’t. I don’t begrudge it, wrestling by the end of the 90s was a tired and worn-out thing that simply could not survive mass adoption of the internet and personal cameras and streaming technology, not to mention the fact of actual pro wrestling (MMA) becoming a thing, but I would be lying if I said I had the same respect for and interest in it. 

[NintendoLogic]

3 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

Ken Shamrock finally admitted years later that at least some of the early Pancrase fights were worked. When he got asked during his RF Shoot Interview if Pancrase fights were fixed, he replied with the old “I’m not at liberty to say” which is carny for “yes.” But he finally came clean in that (outstanding) biography written by Jonathan Snowden a couple of years ago.

I know that most people hate Snowden now due to his outrageous and highly combative online persona, but way back in the day at DVDVR he was actually really nice to me. (If I remember correctly his posting handle there was “Killer Clown” or something like that.) There was a thread where we were discussing early worked shoots, shoot style and MMA and he actually sent me a PM with some great match suggestions and advice regarding where to get them.

Point is, like Snowden or not, his biography of Ken Shamrock most comprehensive, thoroughly researched and well written sports biographies I have ever read. And in that book, he confirms that some of the early Pancrease fights were worked.

For what it’s worth, I think when they moved to having fights in the cage and using gloves and allowing strikes, they went 100% legit.

There's a distinction in my mind between fixed fights and worked ones, although I recognize the lines are frequently blurred in shoot and shoot-style promotions. To me, a work entails not just a predetermined outcome but cooperation between the combatants for entertainment purposes. I haven't read Snowden's book, but all the fixed fights in Pancrase I know about were for business rather than entertainment. Case in point, Shamrock lost the King of Pancrase title to Suzuki right before the Severn fight because the company didn't want to risk their champion losing to a fighter from a rival organization.

By the way, Snowden's screen name at DVDVR was evilclown. He also posted here under that name before he got banned. For what I don't know, but I recall him once posting that the Rollins/Ambrose HIAC match with the Bray Wyatt hologram was so self-evidently awesome that anyone who didn't like it wasn't really a wrestling fan.

[The Thread Killer]

That’s right, Snowden was Evil Clown, not Killer Clown.

It’s always disappointing when you see somebody online who you had previously liked or respected post something which is unnecessarily provocative or otherwise troll-like. I always liked that guy, but obviously other people had a very different experience with him.

I happily concede your point, @NintendoLogic that Pancrase fights were not “worked” in the sense that those guys were not cooperating with each other, and were legitimately smacking and stretching the living hell out of each other. It’s just the outcome that was predetermined, which I imagine qualifies them as “fixed” not worked. Not unlike a couple of the early PRIDE fights, unfortunately.

[Strummer]

I remember evil clown posting here. Don't think he was the poster here who said that the Sasha v Charlotte HIAC match from 2016 was the best match in wwe history but was just reminded of that for some reason. Any idea who that was?

[C.S.]

4 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

(outstanding) biography written by Jonathan Snowden

The shooter book?

Massively hyped on PWO, but I couldn't even finish it.

To be fair, I'm not hugely interested in shooters.

Now I'm wondering if much of that hype was posted by the author himself under his aliases?

I'm reading the Josie Riesman book now. It almost feels weird reading a wrestling book by someone who's an actual writer.

[Ricky Jackson]

1 hour ago, Strummer said:

I remember evil clown posting here. Don't think he was the poster here who said that the Sasha v Charlotte HIAC match from 2016 was the best match in wwe history but was just reminded of that for some reason. Any idea who that was?

That match caused a bunch of folks here to lose their minds insisting it was the closest we've come to transcendent brilliance in wrestling or something. 2016 was kinda a weird time for this board 

[The Thread Killer]

49 minutes ago, C.S. said:

The shooter book?

No, not Shooter. I have read that book, and I thought it was decent, but I am referring to the authorized biography on Ken Shamrock that Jonathan Snowden wrote: “Shamrock: The World’s Most Dangerous Man.”

It’s a great sports biography. Snowden really did his research, the book is very in depth. It’s also surprisingly honest, and is willing to paint Shamrock in an unfavourable light at times, which is odd, considering he actually assisted with the project.

[flyonthewall2983]

I’ll have to check that book out sometime, I’ve seen a few interviews with Shamrock and he’s a fascinating guy.

[Dav'oh]

3 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

and were legitimately smacking and stretching the living hell out of each other.

Vader said of his UWFi fight with Hashimikov, I believe, that the office told him: "If you make it to the finish, he'll honour it." 

[El-P]

14 hours ago, Embrodak said:

I just don’t care for the highly cooperative flippy-doos, brother.

You mean like Eddie Carpentier and Antonino Rocca ? Yeah, agreed. Those guys are ruining the business, their stuff looks ridiculous and contrived. Pro-wrestling was so much better before the war, honestly. Now it's all gymnastics and stupid comedy. Hell, even that Lou Thesz guy is doing too much goofy maneurisms that totally kills his supposed credibility, he's good technically but he acts like a clown too much at times, it's impossible to maintain suspension of disbelief. By that rate, in a few years people are gonna kick out of bodyslams, totally exposing the business. Pro-wrestling is a dying art, I'm telling you. 

[El-P]

13 hours ago, Strummer said:

I remember evil clown posting here. 

I just checked it out.

The irony is so strong. Guess what his last posts were about ?

You'd never know.

How CM Punk is impossible to work with and how he's never taking responsibility. (and called him a sociopath too)

I guess, la boucle est bouclée...

[Big Pete]

Different strokes for different folks.

The main concern with Jay White vs. Komander is that when it's all said and done, the main take-away will be the post-match. Ricky Starks will appear, they'll have a forgettable confrontation, that will set up a match for next week and Komander will be relegated to ROH/Rampage that only a fraction of the audience watches.

[Matt D]

3 hours ago, Big Pete said:

The main concern with Jay White vs. Komander is that when it's all said and done, the main take-away will be the post-match. Ricky Starks will appear, they'll have a forgettable confrontation, that will set up a match for next week and Komander will be relegated to ROH/Rampage that only a fraction of the audience watches.

To me, this is not just an ok outcome, but probably the right outcome. Nice showcase match that lets Komander hit some impressive stuff, shows White as a threat in being able to still overcome despite that, sets up the next part of the angle, gives Komander some experience against someone in a different style and some rub by getting some shots in on the new star that come in. Maybe you even have Juice help Jay get a key advantage to show that Bullet Club Gold is a strong unit. Komander continues to be used as an attraction, in spotlights to get over what makes ROH matchups special or in a hyped exciting match for Rampage and the occasional Dynamite. Eventually, maybe he's cycled into some higher role/program where it might make sense somewhere down the line.

I agree that if Jay just steamrolls him in two or three minutes, it's not a great outcome. I'm honestly curious about what scenario you might prefer to what I spelled out though.

[Big Pete]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

To me, this is not just an ok outcome, but probably the right outcome. Nice showcase match that lets Komander hit some impressive stuff, shows White as a threat in being able to still overcome despite that, sets up the next part of the angle, gives Komander some experience against someone in a different style and some rub by getting some shots in on the new star that come in. Maybe you even have Juice help Jay get a key advantage to show that Bullet Club Gold is a strong unit. Komander continues to be used as an attraction, in spotlights to get over what makes ROH matchups special or in a hyped exciting match for Rampage and the occasional Dynamite. Eventually, maybe he's cycled into some higher role/program where it might make sense somewhere down the line.

I agree that if Jay just steamrolls him in two or three minutes, it's not a great outcome. I'm honestly curious about what scenario you might prefer to what I spelled out though.

If the main purpose is to have Ricky Starks make the save during the post-match (which is my prediction) then I would save Komander/White entirely and skip straight to Ricky Starks/Jay White. The reason being, fans are behind Starks, there is already a rivalry there and a customary 'make the save' is such a well worn cliche in AEW. Hell, I would have thrown Jay White right into the mix of that Elite/BCC before he splinters off with Juice.

However if TK has his heart set on the match, I'd just let them have the match (10 minutes: heat, comeback, commanding finish) and let it breathe with no post-match segment. Then later in the show, have Renee grab some post-match comments where Jay cuts a 90 second promo where he puts over his mission statement and challenges somebody in the locker room to stop him. Maybe have Juice fire up in there and take a crack at Ricky Starks and you can set up a rematch between Juice/Ricky for a later show.

Then again I think AEW needs a proper baseline and post-match beat-downs/saves and interrupted promos are two of my biggest issues with the promotion. Trust your performers, let them cook.

[Migs]

Jericho is one of the carniest carnies to ever carny.

https://www.f4wonline.com/news/aew/update-on-cm-punks-aew-return-saturday-show-brand-split-working-with-jericho

This all feels like it has the chance to go way off the rails.

[sek69]

You know, I really don't blame the Bucks for telling him to GFY after he shit all over them publicly. Yes you can argue that it would be good business and make money, but at the same time the Bucks aren't obligated to work with someone who clearly had so little respect for them not only as co-workers but as office in the company he works for. 

[El-P]

If that happens, let me grab a beer and a bag of chips and chill out while I'm watching the world explode.

Between the super-über-hardcore Punk fanboys, the irrational haters of Jericho (yeah, sorry, but it has reach a point of comedic ridiculousness), the incoming shooty-shooty promos, the crappy social media games, Sammy Guevarra in the locker room being his own self, Dax Harwood being Dax Harwood, CM Punk always on the verge of CM Punking the thing, Jericho pulling strings left and right, holy shit if that's not at the very least stupidly entertaining, I dunno what will.

49 minutes ago, sek69 said:

You know, I really don't blame the Bucks for telling him to GFY after he shit all over them publicly. Yes you can argue that it would be good business and make money, but at the same time the Bucks aren't obligated to work with someone who clearly had so little respect for them not only as co-workers but as office in the company he works for. 

This. And also, if the thing implodes, at least the damage will be somewhat contained. Meanwhile, The Elite will keep on having fun just having great matches with whoever comes around without the everlasting incoming drama. 

I just hope this is not gonna hurt AEW in the long run like I said. And if they manage to stay all pro and make the best out of it, everybody wins. Well, except Dax, who'll manage to bitch about something, anything, probably.