All Elite Wrestling

[C.S.]

3 hours ago, Ricky Jackson said:

The headline of that article is the very definition of misleading and Ross should be pissed at them for stirring up drama. Ross just questioned Taz standing in front of Cage during promos, and that Cage needs to show more personality, not that Cage "doesn't need Taz" 

Clearly no one in this thread actually read the article, besides us, so I'll quote some of it below:

Lack of Tag Ropes and Rules 

- "We don't have tag ropes anymore because some in our crew thinks it's lame. I think that's bulls--t. "Heels need rules to break. They need shortcuts. It's just common sense. It's basic human instincts. The villains, when they get outwrestled, they cheat. It's never changed. It's not going to change. Most of them listen and are appreciative."

Young Wrestlers Thinking They Know Better Than Dean Malenko and Jerry Lynn

- "I think some of our coaches are taking more ownership," Ross said. "I'm always impressed with the knowledge that a guy like Dean Malenko or Jerry Lynn share with the talent because they're good communicators. They're not heavy-handed. They can be frustrated as well. Some guys, unless they think of it or if it's their own philosophy, don't believe you're accurate. How can you not take advice from a guy like Jerry Lynn or Dean Malenko on psychology, pacing and timing?"

Psychology

- "I tell young guys your job is a lot like being a stand-up comedian," Ross stated. "Stand-up comedian takes the stage. He tells a joke, and then the good ones wait for the laughter to let the audience process the joke. Slow down. Let them process. I think some guys just don't have the confidence in their game to work a hold, put them in a predicament, let them work out of it and let them work back into it. It's basic psychology."

Young Wrestlers Claiming They've "Reinvented the Business"

- "I was talking to Jerry Lawler late last night, and we were laughing about how some younger talents want to make the business, but [say] we reinvented the business. It's the new style of wrestling," Ross recalled. "To that I say bulls--t. Double bulls--t. We play on human emotions. I don't believe the business has changed so much. Now some of the athleticism, the pace, that's changed a little bit. Sometimes for the better. Sometimes not, but the basic foundation and fundamentals of wrestling are not gonna change."

What he actually said about Brian Cage and Taz:

- "We had some camera work that we need to be more aware of. Taz does not need to be standing in front of Brian Cage," Ross pointed out. "I'm not knocking Taz. He'll probably take it that way, but so be it. Nonetheless, we have to have better positioning in that regard. Taz has cut some damn good promos. I really enjoyed those quite frankly."

- "When Brian got the FTW belt, he didn't register it one bit. He was nonplussed," Ross noted. "So, if it didn't mean sh-t to him, then why should it mean sh-t to me or you or the fans? There's been a lot of good things in that build. I like Taz's heel work. His promo work is as good as anybody we have right now, quite frankly, but Cage has got to show more personality. He is a hell of an athlete and sometimes he works like a babyface with all the flying stuff and that might need to be addressed. It's a learning process."

https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2020/07/jim-ross-says-brian-cage-doesnt-need-taz-672530/

[World's Worst Man]

I find it typical that "results oriented thinking" is all the rage until it interferes with one's personal biases. For all intents and purposes, AEW has been a bigger success than was expected, so it's not difficult to believe that some of these guys hold a high opinion of themselves and their wrestling ability. It might not jive with JR's subjective opinions, but results are results. I actually agree with a lot of those points, but I can't help feel there is a ton of hypocrisy going around. I also don't think a more traditional approach to pro-wrestling would improve AEW's business - that ship has sailed and is likely never coming back. Guys like Cornette can bang on about how wrestling used to be more popular when it was more "serious" but as the cliche goes, correlation does not equal causation. WWE's biggest period coincided with an absolute dog-shit in-ring product and was more a result of the personalities they featured, not the presence of a tag-team rope, or serious, believable wrestling.

[El-P]

Yeah, I mean, bitching about tag ropes in 2020... I don't think tag rope were even a thing back in the Steve Austin era. They came back in WWE at some point in the 00's I believe.

That's why to me Tony Schiavone is a much more important aspect of the product, because he's the hypeman-with-credentials. He was the one who did the Greatest Call in the History of Our Sport (you know the one), he disappeared for almost 20 years and is now back, funnier and having more fun than ever calling CURRENT pro-wrestling *as it is*. That was the whole thing in MLW at first, fucking Tony "NWA on TBS" Schiavone legit marking out watching crazy indy spotfests. He was an important part of getting Britt Baker over too (don't kid yourselves, she's been great but like Jericho in WCW, she needed someone to dance with). He and Jericho calling the confinement shows before they got back to Daily's place was pure gold. He's much more valuable to the actual product (not to the investors because JR = WWF Attitude Era).

[cm funk]

Tony legit loves modern wrestling.  I don't really listen to the podcasts as much anymore due to being burnt out on Conrad (nothing against the guy, but I can only handle like one podcast a week out of him) but I love hearing him watch ECW with fresh eyes and be a total mark for the product.

One of the biggest differences is that Tony was a lifer, got burnt out and walked away completely for 15 years.  Didn't watch anything.  Everything is new to him, he legit loves the crazy highspots guys do these days and the bang-bang style while STILL loving the old school.  He's not jaded and grumpy like JR can be sometimes

As far as the positioning of Taz and Cage in their promos.....JR isn't the first one to bring it up.  Someone here did weeks ago I think.  I don't see it.  Cage dwarves Taz and so him behind Taz makes him look like more of a monster to me.  I like Taz getting right into the camera's face with THE MACHINE behind him looking all swoll and menacing......

[sek69]

The only thing I can see JR's point is that it did seem Cage was going in and out of looking menacing and that is something that could be improved.  Taz getting up in the camera cutting some boss ass promos while Cage stood behind him flexing and mean mugging was some top notch business.  

I can see where he would think someone like Cage isn't being heel enough in his ring work by doing high spotty type stuff, but that comes off as JR  being more cranky than any fault of Cage.

[joeg]

Except he never he said Cage doesn't need Taz. He said Taz shouldn't be standing in front of Cage during promos and that they need to fix their camera angles and blocking so things like that don't keep happening.... 

[KawadaSmile]

Ivelisse and Jack Evans are publicly arguing on Twitter for some weird fucking reason. I think it goes back the their Lucha Underground days, apparently.

 

Also, while I don't really watch AEW that much, I gotta say: Sonny Kiss is awesome. Can be a pretty big name and I really think he has the highest ceiling as a star in the entire company.

[cm funk]

speaking of Jack Evans....I haven't been watching Dark but it seems like him and Angelico haven't been around in forever

[El-P]

Stuck in Mexico. Now that Penta has showed up, I wonder why they can't.

[Coffey]

12 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

I don't really watch AEW that much, I gotta say: Sonny Kiss is awesome. Can be a pretty big name and I really think he has the highest ceiling as a star in the entire company.

I have no issues with Sonny Kiss either. I do genuinely feel bad that whenever he posts on social media, or AEW mentions him, it brings out all the hate - usually from troll/alt accounts - but it's just really sad to see & read. It's a shame we still feel so far behind the times in that regard. Then you factor in social media AND that we're in the pro-wrestling niche & it just becomes yikes.

Also, The Concrete Rose is a GREAT fucking nickname.

I don't know if I think Kiss has the potential highest upside though. I think the gimmick is dumb as dirt but Luchasaurus could be a giant star & the Jurassic Express as a stable at least seem over. I think they also have something in Sammy Guevera & Darby Allin. Of course they also still have Moxley & Omega too. Adam Page is the guy I'm completely cold on. I do wish they could warm up Pentagon, Jr. the way Lucha Underground did too. I like him a lot more as a single than teaming with Fenix. Shida for the women gives off a star vibe as well.

AEW definitely have talent.

[SirEdger]

I think Sonny Kiss proved last week in his match with Cody that if he's given a chance, he can hang with the best of 'em. And incidentally, Arn put him over big time in that post-show interview on YouTube saying that because Cody took him lightly, he almost lost the TNT title to Sonny. The issue I had with Sonny getting the title match with Cody was that given how little exposure he had had on Dynamite since the promotion's debut, I didn't have the feeling from a viewer's standpoint that he stood a chance against Cody. But I'm glad he proved me wrong.

Quote

Ivelisse and Jack Evans are publicly arguing on Twitter for some weird fucking reason. I think it goes back the their Lucha Underground days, apparently.

Now, this is something that AEW absolutely needs to work on with Ivelisse because as much as people recognize that she's talented, I've seen A LOT of fans pissed at AEW for even giving her a chance on TV because of her shitty past and right now, AEW doesn't need the bad publicity. So, I just hope that Tony Khan, Cody and whoever else has been in contact with her really took some time to sit her down and straightening her out.

[sek69]

I seem to recall Jack Evans saying she was the reason he left Lucha Underground. I'm not sure of any specifics but it seems she's not been the easiest person to get along with.  My impression is she's another Tessa but without the racism accusations (that I know of anyway). 

I'm surprised AEW gave her a shot considering the word on her has been a variation of "there's a reason no major company has reached out to her in a while".  Maybe they can buck the trend and everything will work out fine, but the odds do not seem to be in their favor here.

[El-P]

I'm a fan of Ivelisse. Maybe she's not a nice person IRL, I have no idea, but nobody's perfect, I'm not her co-worker, I'm a guy enjoying her work as a pro-wrestler. People getting pissed at someone getting a job because of rumors they heard on Twitter is yet another reason why people are idiots. At some point, if X or Y are difficult in the locker room, it's none of your business if you don't WORK HERE ! People getting pissed at Ivy getting a shot is really pathetic fake outrage and hive mentality. I'm sure all of those people bitching are perfect. Really now...

[sek69]

Well if Jack Evans is one of those people not happy, it is his business since he does work there and apparently wasn't a fan of working with her before. 

[El-P]

His business yes. But it's private business. Random people bitching online about Ivelisse getting a shot is ridiculous. Seems like people on Twitter have no life of their own at all and spend day trying to find something to bitch about and be toxic to people they don't even know.

[Coffey]

How is that different than exactly what we do here on this message forum?

[sek69]

Hey now, this place on its worst day is no where near as toxic as Twitter, even if sometimes there's occasional squabbles amongst us.

Now finding things to bitch about? OK, you got me there, lol. 

[El-P]

Bitching about X or Y getting a job ? We hopefully don't do it very much, because it's stupid.

The difference on Twitter is the hive mentality and the fact people tag *the actual people* that they target so they get the toxicity.

Here we're in a close circuit, like in an underground bar of something. Twitter is people shouting in the streets and under X or Y's windows.

[sek69]

To me, the discussion here is normally less "should X get a job?" and more "should AEW expect their experience with X be any different than everyone else's?" which I think is a far question to ask based on history. 

[El-P]

History of what ? What is Ivelisse's track record ? And no, Twitter diss and rumors from so-called "insiders" don't register for "history".

As a viewer, she was a highlight of Lucha Underground. So I'm just glad to see her again.

[rovert]

Well, this got weird. Ivelisse has a long history of backstage fights of all kinds and hurting people in the ring. Most US indies won't book her as a lot of wrestlers male and female would pull out of the show if they did . Which is why she basically wrestles once a month.

[NintendoLogic]

Yeah, I can't speak to the veracity of any particular rumor, but a free agent woman wrestler with proven ability to work and get over should have promotions beating down her door. The fact that she has so much trouble getting booked indicates to me that there must be something that makes her more trouble than she's worth.

[El-P]

Well, tough shit for all the indie promoters and workers who'll see her on TV then. Listen, I don't pretend to know jackshit about her apart from her work, but like I said, I don't deal in rumors. I take a "difficult" personality who is a very good performer over.... I dunno, Big Swole, any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I hope she makes the most of it and gets a regular gig.

Speaking of people who haven't surfaced anywhere after LU, surprisingly to me, where the hell are Marty The Moth and Cheerleader Melissa ?

[Migs]

I'm sure at this point she works relatively cheap. I'd wager AEW sees this much the same way a sports team does when they take on a head case with talent on a cheap contract - if it works out, awesome, you've got more talent on the team for a below-market price, and if she alienates everyone on day 1, it's a small loss.

[rovert]

10 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Yeah, I can't speak to the veracity of any particular rumor, but a free agent woman wrestler with proven ability to work and get over should have promotions beating down her door. The fact that she has so much trouble getting booked indicates to me that there must be something that makes her more trouble than she's worth.

She's wrestling Diamante as she's one of her few friends. A pet opponent basically. Things will get really interesting if she gets over and then gets to wrestle people she had past with or friends of people who she had a past with.

Ivelisse is a very sad story relative to her potential, talent and the time in which she existed in. She would get a lot of support if she admitted her mistakes and got help. But she has never shown any capacity to do so.

Personally interested to find out if she still can "go" after a couple of bad breaks with leg and foot injuries in the past few years.

But if I am sharing a locker room with her I am running a million miles and avoiding getting written up by AEW HR for some he said/she said thing or having a drama that leaks to the internet.