The Wade Keller Appreciation Thread

[Beast]

Why the surprise over a guy using the "n" word and then supporting a black president 15 years later? It's a horrible word yes, but the usage of it doesn't make someone automatically a racist. There are tons of kids today who use the word fagot and they're not all homophobes.

 

He shouldn't have used the word, but he was a heel manager in the south getting heat. Why dwell on it?

[sek69]

Why the surprise over a guy using the "n" word and then supporting a black president 15 years later? It's a horrible word yes, but the usage of it doesn't make someone automatically a racist. There are tons of kids today who use the word fagot and they're not all homophobes.

 

He shouldn't have used the word, but he was a heel manager in the south getting heat. Why dwell on it?

 

Not to belabor the point, but why shouldn't people dwell on it? Dismissive attitudes are a big reason all our collective -ism's stick around so much.

[Loss]

In 2010, it's more taboo to accuse someone of racism than it is to actually say something racist.

[Dylan Waco]

In 2010, it's more taboo to accuse someone of racism than it is to actually say something racist.

To be fair that's because of the utter bastardization of term.

[Beast]

Why the surprise over a guy using the "n" word and then supporting a black president 15 years later? It's a horrible word yes, but the usage of it doesn't make someone automatically a racist. There are tons of kids today who use the word fagot and they're not all homophobes.

 

He shouldn't have used the word, but he was a heel manager in the south getting heat. Why dwell on it?

 

Not to belabor the point, but why shouldn't people dwell on it? Dismissive attitudes are a big reason all our collective -ism's stick around so much.

 

Like I said it happened in the mid 90's in a regional territory. Even if you think it's horrible, it's not relevant at all anymore. I triple dog dare some of you to spend a week posting positive thoughts on matches and wrestlers you like/liked rather than discussing gossip and sleaze and things that make the wrestling business horrible. I know most of you have been fans forever and know a ton about wrestling, but reading your posts every few days gives off the impression that you some of you just search for little-known nasty stories or badly written posts to poke fun at them.

 

Look at the top posts in this section: Greatest Cons in Wrestling History, a thread featuring ridiculous Wade Keller posts, a thread about Linda McMahon's senate run and all the ridiculousness surrounding it, a thread poking fun at the WO.com columnists, a thread to poke at everything little thing Meltzer says or writes, a thread about Hulk Hogan being ridiculous, and of course the Jim Ross is a vile grouchy human being thread. Don't get me wrong, like a middle aged housewife I love checking these threads for gossip, but just call the board prowrestlingdirtonly.com if you're just gonna talk about negative shit. And yes I know

[sek69]

I don't see how us poking fun at badly written WO.com articles is anywhere close to the same thing as the head of what was at the time one of the biggest indies dropping the n-bomb, but whatever. Wrestling is a ridiculous industry full of ridiculous people, and the stories of their antics can be and often are hilarious. I'm not saying we offer any great social commentary, but people who spend a long time in the business tend to be in a bubble that causes them to say things that would make most normal people say "what the FUCK?" on a regular basis. When something positive happens, we discuss it.

 

Jim Cornette in particular has a long track record of throwing tantrums like a spoiled child and really acting in a way that should be embarrassing to most human beings. Since he also has a long track record of being pretty good at pro wrestling (at least the promo aspect of it), he's never really been called out on it until the recent deal with him sending threatening emails to TNA. He's really the grown up version of the bratty kid you see acting up in a store you would gladly volunteer to slap the shit out of because their parents are ignoring them.

[kjh]

When something positive happens, we discuss it.

Yeah, a few days ago I put over John Cena at Cageside Seats as "a humble, private man who goes out of his way for charitable causes and to make sick children's dreams come true". What could be more positive than that? I find the talking point that somehow we're horribly negative about the business is amusing when the narrative of the people we critique like Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez is how much pro wrestling sucks today compared to UFC, how incompetent WWE and TNA's creative teams are, etc.

[Log]

Like I said it happened in the mid 90's in a regional territory. Even if you think it's horrible, it's not relevant at all anymore. I triple dog dare some of you to spend a week posting positive thoughts on matches and wrestlers you like/liked rather than discussing gossip and sleaze and things that make the wrestling business horrible. I know most of you have been fans forever and know a ton about wrestling, but reading your posts every few days gives off the impression that you some of you just search for little-known nasty stories or badly written posts to poke fun at them.

 

Look at the top posts in this section: Greatest Cons in Wrestling History, a thread featuring ridiculous Wade Keller posts, a thread about Linda McMahon's senate run and all the ridiculousness surrounding it, a thread poking fun at the WO.com columnists, a thread to poke at everything little thing Meltzer says or writes, a thread about Hulk Hogan being ridiculous, and of course the Jim Ross is a vile grouchy human being thread. Don't get me wrong, like a middle aged housewife I love checking these threads for gossip, but just call the board prowrestlingdirtonly.com if you're just gonna talk about negative shit. And yes I know

I think that if I'm being honest with myself, the stuff you mentioned that makes the business "horrible" is probably like 60% of why I'm so fascinated with wrestling. The actual in-ring and storyline stuff is great and all, but I wouldn't be so into pro wrestling if it wasn't such a strange and sleazy industry.

[Dan]

Porn seemed to come off worse in the "Which is more sleazy?" thread, fwiw.

[S.L.L.]

I triple dog dare some of you to spend a week posting positive thoughts on matches and wrestlers you like/liked rather than discussing gossip and sleaze and things that make the wrestling business horrible. I know most of you have been fans forever and know a ton about wrestling, but reading your posts every few days gives off the impression that you some of you just search for little-known nasty stories or badly written posts to poke fun at them.

I'm not really terribly interested in the impression being given off. I know I love wrestling, I know everyone else here loves wrestling, and I'm confident enough in that that I don't feel the need to meet some kind of quota for positive posting in order to maintain my fandom. Why do you need it? And furthermore, if you feel the board is so starved for positive wrestling discussion, why don't you start some instead of posting yet another whiny complaint about excessive negativity on this board?

[tomk]

This is why I'm so amused to see Cornette as a big Obama supporter, and moreso, to see him call Obama detractors a bunch of racists. It's not one I saw coming.

My impression is that the Obama support came from a combination of being married a more cosmopolitan woman and the excesses of the Bush years. Many of his initial pro-Obama pieces used some of his old racial tropes---see here this is a good one, he isn't a thug who just wants to rape your woman and demand reparations..

 

and well when he saw Obama detractors try to throw those racial tropes at Obama, he was quick to identify it.

 

To be fair that's because of the utter bastardization of term.

I don't think the term racism has been bastardized. But there is a huge social stigma attached to confronting racism.

 

Oh and if people want positive thoughs on matches and wrestlers I'd suggest the summer of segundacaida.

 

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/

 

about one post a day since Mid May normally on a positive tip.

[jdw]

I triple dog dare some of you to spend a week posting positive thoughts on matches and wrestlers you like/liked

Most of us have done that for more than a decade.

 

We also talk about what sucks, and have forever as well.

 

Really no different from Dave or Bryan. I'm sure we can point to negative, critical, bitter comments they made in their early newsletters, and right up to even now when they're talking about a TNA led by Eric and Hulk.

 

You're really not even trying very hard to come across as anything more than a troll of the posters on this board.

 

John

[Dan]

To get this back on track ... Orton, on his twitter, called out James Caldwell (by name) for getting a date wrong. On a thread about it on the PWT board, WK quips:

 

If I misspell John Cnea's name will he please correct me by name on his Twitter account with a billion followers?

 

When is Vince McMahon going to get a Twitter account: "Yelling at Gewirtz right now"... "Yelling at Michael Hayes right now"... "Trying to ditch Linda's calls right now" ... "Cena's giving me a foot rub right now"... "Flexing in front of a mirror (w/my shirt on to hide my b****t**s, of course)" ...

[Beast]

I triple dog dare some of you to spend a week posting positive thoughts on matches and wrestlers you like/liked

Most of us have done that for more than a decade.

 

We also talk about what sucks, and have forever as well.

 

Really no different from Dave or Bryan. I'm sure we can point to negative, critical, bitter comments they made in their early newsletters, and right up to even now when they're talking about a TNA led by Eric and Hulk.

 

You're really not even trying very hard to come across as anything more than a troll of the posters on this board.

 

John

 

Just wanted to come back and apologize. Obviously this is a great board for info and I usually check for that purpose, but sometimes I get frustrated at the overwhelming negativity directed at other people/places around the net. I overreacted to be sure and it's out of my system.

[Bix]

Also, when Dave and Bryan are letting people call Dave Scherer a pedophile on their board...

[Hollinger.]

Is Dave oblivious to the fact that Alvarez is a tool and is making his shit look lower rent because of the people he keeps as hangers on, or is Dave cool with all that?

[Loss]

In some ways, Bryan Alvarez is like Kevin Nash. A bad influence, but he gets away with it because he's funny.

[Hollinger.]

But like Kevin Nash, he's not nearly as funny as he thinks he is.

[Sean Liska]

Dave's the man when it comes to wrestling journalism but he makes some strange decisions otherwise. Like this Alvarez infatuation over the last ten years. Or deciding that Ben Miller was the man that needed his own column in the Observer. Or any of the stuff he puts up on the website, much of which seem to be letters not even meant to be posted as articles. It baffles me to see how a guy so smart and hard-working can make some of these decisions.

[sek69]

I think it's pretty clear that Dave has a large blind spot when it comes to people he associates with. It's sometimes difficult to listen to their Observer Radio shows when Dave is trying to give insight on something and Bryan is yelling and swearing like someone who should be walking around town with a "The end is near" sandwich board.

 

Sometimes it comes across as Dave maybe being too nice of a guy and doesn't have the heart to get rid of anyone. Once you're in his crew, you're seemingly in 4 life.

[Strummer]

Nash is much funnier than Alvarez

 

[kjh]

Is Dave oblivious to the fact that Alvarez is a tool and is making his shit look lower rent because of the people he keeps as hangers on, or is Dave cool with all that?

I think Dave's cool with that because he couldn't do the newsletter, the website and his work for Yahoo! Sports without someone sharing the load. I'm not sure it's merely his humor that allows Bryan to get away with being a "bad influence", but more because he reinforces Dave's opinions, doesn't challenge him very often and when he does, is easily schooled.

[Hollinger.]

Yeah, I get that Dave's a busy dude and without Alvarez, we wouldn't currently have the Observer in an online format. I've just been baffled as to why Dave hasn't found someone else to host the site for his newsletter that isn't looking to take advantage of all the eyeballs he brings to it. It's like Bill James joining Deadspin because they offered to give him an online voice.

[jdw]

Is Dave oblivious to the fact that Alvarez is a tool and is making his shit look lower rent because of the people he keeps as hangers on, or is Dave cool with all that?

In some ways, Bryan Alvarez is like Kevin Nash. A bad influence, but he gets away with it because he's funny.

I actually don't think Bryan is a bad influence, or does much towards making Dave look bad. Overall he's likely been a very big positive for Dave.

 

We may not enjoy Bryan's stuff, but take a step back: how many of us bother reading what Bryan writes? Or listen to the WO.Show religiously? People who don't care for Bryan's stuff but still like reading Dave tend to do just that: read Dave. Bryan tends not to hit their radar. I know that's the case for Yohe, and I rarely read the Fig-4 despite it being free with the WON. I suspect that's the case for a lot of older WON readers who can be tossed off as "current wrestling passed them by".

 

In turn, people who like Dave *and* Bryan probably read both, and listen to the WO.Show.

 

The positives are pretty obvious.

 

Dave was pretty shitty on the Web going back to the crappy one Alverez hooked him up with, and really didn't get any better with those LAW idiots. Bad website, poor delivery of the newsletter, and a piss poor job of integrating his audio content into the newsletter business. With Bryan, Dave now "owns" all that, though obviously merged in with Bryan's in whatever business deal they have. I suspect Dave's business deal with Bryan is mutually far more beneficial in the long run than Dave's prior ones. The WO-4 web isn't the best, but for the most part it gets done the primary things it should to be viable: sells the newsletters, provides live updates to key events, does modest "updates" infront of the curtain, and provides a fair amount of updates / news / opinion behind the curtain on the WO.Show. That an older sub like me doesn't get a ton out of it other than ease of reading the newsletter doesn't really matter: it's not designed for someone like me whose interest in the current product is light. Overall, I tend to think the direction he finally moved in the web is a positive even if not fully perfected.

 

From a "friend" standpoint, I tend to think Bryan's been a pretty good friend for Dave. I don't recall ever hearing him lead Dave into a dumbass business decision. Dave's always spoken fondly/highly of him being a good guy. It's Dave, and he's not without his blindspots as we all are... but I don't think he's been wrong on Bryan.

 

On being a jackass, has anyone ever heard anything remotely close to the level of shittiness that's been associated with say Scherer or Ryder? We tend to bust Bryan's balls, and I don't think folks have been off base in pointing out that he doesn't take criticism very well... but then again, how many of us do? I think the biggest moments of "Bryan's being a prick" that anyone has pointed to are extremely mild, especially on the scale of Scherer. I'm pretty confident that more than one poster here can point to times when I've been a far bigger asshole than Bryan, while also admitting that I don't hit high on the Scherer scale. Dave could associate with true scumbuckets, and it's a business filled with them both on the inside and in fandom. Bryan's pretty human, and we all have moments of being abrassive. I don't think it's really a problem, especially for Dave.

 

Lastly, if you look at the majority of Dave's "wrestling friends" over the years of the WON, their fandom has ebbed and flowed. His ones from the 70s like Dobratz (sp?) were there at the launch of the WON, but gone by the mid-80s for the most part. There was a large group of 80s friends that a decade later we referred to as The Class of 89: their fandom peak with the run of WCW in 1989, and by the mid-90s a lot of them moved onto other interests or lesser interest in pro wrestling. A fair number of the ones from the mid-90s like myself started checking out in the early 00's. We had shared interest in the 80s that Dave had, but also enjoyed the wide variety of things that bubbled up in the 90s. By the early part of the 00s, a good deal of what we enjoyed was dead or declining, and we started losing interest. Call us the Class of 95. Dave, in contrast, has typically found stuff to enjoy even while ripping the crap out of the product. This pretty much has alway been the case. Dave would say that his tastes have evolved as wrestling has, and that he's "kept up".

 

Bryan's tastes pretty much line up with Dave's on the current product. Bryan finds plenty to enjoy, again even while ripping the product. In a sense he's similar to what some of us had been in the 90s: Bryan shared a fair amount of Dave's interest in the mid-to-late 90s, especially in the US product. And he's been a big fan of the product of 00's relatively speaking, lining up with Dave's interests. Mix in the UFC fandom as well.

 

I think that's a positive for Dave currently, as has been his other friendships over the years. I'm not sure what common things in the late 80s Dave would have had with Dobratz. On the other hand, Bowdren and others had very similar views to Dave on wrestling at that point, with a wide variety of interests. By the mid 90s, a lot of what Bowdren liked transitioned to a new generation and he had largely moved on. My interests at that point were very similar to Dave's, even if my opinions weren't always. In turn Bryan's have been pretty similar to Dave's in say the last decade.

 

One could probably ask Kurt Brown about what his common wrestling interests with Dave are now. Very good friend of Dave's for a hell of a long time. But I'm not sure that Dave could call up Kurt to go over the latest things going on backstage and on camera for TNA and Kurt would really care all that much. In contrast, that's stuff that Bryan eats up right now.

 

That's a good thing. It tends to help keep Dave's juices flowing on where ever wrestling at a given time. Which is important if you're going to hawk a newsletter covering an industry: if you utterly hate the product on a whole and stay stuck in what you enjoyed 20 years ago, you aren't going to find enough people *paying* to read you to make a living. Dave's pretty much kept up with what current wrestling fans enjoy, even if it's not always what we enjoy.

 

Bruce has been a friend of Dave's longer, and also tends to keep up. But he's also quite a bit more cynical and jaded on elements of the business than Bryan, so you get a balance in having both.

 

Anyway... long response. Overall and given other options, Bryan's almost certainly been a positive as a friend for Dave. He also isn't a bad guy.

 

John

[Bix]

You're not wrong, but I think their point was more along the lines of how it's bothersome that they seem like they're afraid of alienating the "4chan of wrestling" types and are being influenced by them in their own behavior.