Dylan Waco Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Liger and Gedo interest me. The rest of that run is trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Is this REALLY missing from DVDVR's entrance music tournament? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIhHQ8Jt7ZI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Is this REALLY missing from DVDVR's entrance music tournament? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIhHQ8Jt7ZI Not an in house WWF track, it sucks. Duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 am I the only one who LOVES Muta's 4th WCW theme? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONOgnAGR3g0...feature=related and he always had trouble getting over but I'll be damned if this doesn't make him seem like a complete badass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD89ACzMr3s...feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 ah hell on a Muta kick: awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 While we're on the subject of Muta, I'm always shocked when I talk to casual fans who I wouldn't expect to know him that they know him. I remember watching Nitro in 2000 with a bunch of people that were pretty far removed from hardcore fandom that popped huge when Muta showed up, saying things like that they hadn't seen him in forever. I understand hardcore fans knowing him, but I guess his run in the U.S. was pretty memorable. I realize he did occasional shows in the decade after, but there's no way that's why he's so remembered. Poor NWA in '89, genuinely creating new stars and fresh feuds, and going in a new direction that on paper should have worked to turn business around, but just didn't. I really need to finish out those last few '88 WONs so we can get into '89 and recap not only this time period of the early days of WCW, but also Dave being blown away at the WWF's build of Hogan/Savage at Wrestlemania, which for years I believe he considered the greatest angle of all time because it was so slow and disciplined and drew so much money. Changing the subject slightly, I don't want to get too much into this now, but Dave does think Savage losing at WM was a really bad move, because Hogan chasing Savage still had legs and Savage was in the middle of a red hot run on house shows. Dave said in a WON that the best possible finish that they would never do at WM would be Elizabeth spraying Hogan in the eyes and turning on him, leading to a Savage win. Can you imagine the heat for THAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Changing the subject slightly, I don't want to get too much into this now, but Dave does think Savage losing at WM was a really bad move, because Hogan chasing Savage still had legs and Savage was in the middle of a red hot run on house shows. Dave said in a WON that the best possible finish that they would never do at WM would be Elizabeth spraying Hogan in the eyes and turning on him, leading to a Savage win. Can you imagine the heat for THAT? It wasn't even that Savage lost but that he lost after hitting Hogan with everything he had and then having Hogan Hulk Up out of the elbow drop. From the people I've spoken with, I get the impression that the "consensus" tends not to think too highly of the WM match relative to other Savage/Hogan matches, but I do think that Savage showed solid desperation and did a lot of intense brawling and attacking outside the ring. You got the feeling that he was hitting Hogan with literally everything he could muster past maybe a ring bell to the throat. After Hogan kicks out of the Elbow (and god did Hogan ever love that pop. He became addicted to it in the years following), what's the point of watching another match with the two of them. It's already obvious that Savage can't put Hogan away no matter what. Hell, Honky was way smarter than that. On SNME, after he hits Hogan with the Shake, Rattle and Roll, he celebrates like a maniac for a few minutes before trying to pin him so as to protect his finisher. If Hulk rolled out of the way and didn't get hit by it, and then they added Sherri to the mix, they could have run it again, as is, at Summerslam. Instead, we got Zeus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 I don't mind the Hogan/Savage match. I like it a lot, actually. Savage was pretty great in his performance in that match. Hogan .... yeah, not so much. Still, I do get the criticisms of the booking and the finish and I see how that took the match down a peg, and also working in the terrible Trump Plaza didn't help, but I thought Savage gave an inspired performance. I'm curious which Hogan/Savage match most people consider their best. Would it be a house show match from the '89 run or something earlier, in '85 or '86, when Savage was one of a long line of heels working Hogan at house shows? I should make it a point to see whatever match people consider their best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Is this REALLY missing from DVDVR's entrance music tournament? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIhHQ8Jt7ZI Not an in house WWF track, it sucks. Duh. Yeah there is a WWF/WWE bias on the board. Muta in WCW may have been the coolest thing professional wrestling ever did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 If Hulk rolled out of the way and didn't get hit by it, and then they added Sherri to the mix, they could have run it again, as is, at Summerslam. Instead, we got Zeus. I do think there's a Hogan vs Savage match from 89 in London post WM V, where Savage is with Sherri. Yeah, that would have been something else. I always hated the fact that Savage, no matter how and when, always ended up being Hogan's bitch, from his first WWF title win to his last WCW title win. Just annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 I really love Savage/Neidhart from the SNME right after Mania. It was this weird period after Sherri joined up but before he had won the Crown from Duggan and it's the match to give him his heat back, with the maddening concept that for some reason he has to get through Neidhart to get another shot at Hogan. It's really more about Sherri and showing off what she can offer relative to Liz, but it all ends up working really well. It's a smart little match. As for which Hogan/Savage match IS considered the best, I'm blanking. Just looking at the early time period... According to Graham's site, there are 3 MSG matches in 85-early 86 but they all go less than 10 mins, even the lumberjack one. They feuded in Boston in spring 86 with one match that went 13 mins and a follow up that was shorter and paid-off/transitioned with Hogan/Steele vs Savage/Adonis. There's a PRISM taped Spectrum match in mid 85 that went 11 and a 14 min Maple Leaf Gardens one from just about the same time. And I'm pretty sure there's at least one Detroit one that went 11 (think that's on the unreleased archive Hogan DVD). None of that's particularly helpful. I kind of want to watch as many as I can track down now though. (And that Race/Savage match from 87 too. It's interesting watching broken down Harley vs guys who are actually good). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Is this REALLY missing from DVDVR's entrance music tournament? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIhHQ8Jt7ZI Not an in house WWF track, it sucks. Duh. Yeah there is a WWF/WWE bias on the board. Muta in WCW may have been the coolest thing professional wrestling ever did Muta and Gary Hart together may have been the coolest thing professional wrestling ever did. I always loved how Gary Hart was like the Jake Roberts of managers. He would almost never scream and yell, he'd just state how his guy was going to beat the top babyface's ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 It was expected of Hogan to hulk up after getting hit by someones finisher (or a very strong move) back than so I still think the Macho Man would be considered more of a threat to Hogan than almost anyone else out there even after Wrestlemania. Everyone already knew it was obvious that nobody on the roster had anything at all to put Hogan away. There was only one person that did and that was the Warrior. That's one of teh reasons why the Warrior was so special and people got sooo into into the Wrestlemania VI match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Hogan didn't do it on TV before early 89 nearly as much as he would a year or two later. Btw, the grapevine (the grapevine being Vic) tells me that the May 24, 1986 Boston Garden match is the one to watch for Savage's first heel run. I haven't seen this yet. Pretty sure this is it though. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8mq1r_hu...-wwf-titl_sport http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8mq51_hu...vage-pt-2_sport Edit: as a kid I didn't see any of 89 NWA, but when Muta showed up in 91-92, when I did start watching, it was always super exciting to me. Like a super special attraction. I was glued to the set and the moonsault was something downright mythical. And that's the impression I had after missing his big run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Piling on to Loss' point about Muta, living in South Carolina, any time I talk about being a wrestling fan with non-hardcore's he is always one of the first names that pops up. On a similar note, my best friend hates pro wrestling now but loved it as a kid. Anytime I've ever been around him and pro wrestling comes up he always ends up talking about how Jushin Liger was the best wrestler he ever saw based entirely on things we saw live as little kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 Is this REALLY missing from DVDVR's entrance music tournament? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIhHQ8Jt7ZI Not an in house WWF track, it sucks. Duh. Yeah there is a WWF/WWE bias on the board. Muta in WCW may have been the coolest thing professional wrestling ever did Muta and Gary Hart together may have been the coolest thing professional wrestling ever did. I always loved how Gary Hart was like the Jake Roberts of managers. He would almost never scream and yell, he'd just state how his guy was going to beat the top babyface's ass. Yup, Gary Hart was a great manager for Muta. That reminds me of my fav PWI (or a different mag) story where they talked about Hart having some kind of power over Muta due to some kind of family thing. They weren't sure of the specifics though and it painted Muta as a babyface and a victim. When the magazine asked Muta about it, he didn't say anything about it but looked at them with his sad face before Hart changes the subject. The Great Kabuki and his father was tied into it somehow too. Wish I could remember it. It added to Muta's mystique for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 If I'm remembering correctly, Muta was billed as Kabuki's son at first (hence the connection with the green mist) and that's how Gary Hart became involved since he managed Kabuki for a while too. I think it might have been one of those angles completely invented by the magazines to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 I agree with the comment of Matt and Loss: Hogan-Savage should/could have continued on with Hogan chasing. I think we all understand WWF-Think from the era: Dynastic Babyface Champion *never* chases Bruno didn't. Pedro didn't. Bruno II didn't. Bob didn't. Hogan didn't. Even Randy didn't, when they originally planned to have Ted win at Mania IV and have Randy chase him. Those champs all did strong business without chasing. So you can see 20+ years of a mindset that "this has always worked for us". The small difference is that they left what could have been a monster PPV buy with Hogan-Savage at SummerSlam with some stip (Hogan retires if he doesn't win it back, Hogan's last challenge if he doesn't win it back) or angle (Savage injures Hogan at the tail end of the series around the horn that puts Hulk briefly on the shelf, only coming back at SS). We might think that it's "stretching" to take it from Mania (04/02/89) to SS (08/28/89), but take a look: 04/02/89 Mania 04/22/89 Spectrum 04/23/89 MLG 04/24/89 MSG 05/12/89 LA Sports Arena 05/19/89 Chicago 05/20/89 Spectrum (2) 05/21/89 MLG (2) 06/03/89 Boston 06/16/89 LA Sports Arena (2) 08/19/89 Spectrum (3) 08/28/89 SummerSlam 09/15/89 LA Sports Arena (3) 09/16/89 Chicago (2) 09/17/89 MLG (3) 10/10/89 London 10/13/89 Paris Other than a SNME against Ted and a throwaway with HTM, it wasn't until 10/20/89 when he started around the horn with Bad News that Hogan had another challenger. As in *no* other challengers. It was non-stop Hogan-Savage from April through October. It was a bit frontloaded into Apr-Jul, but it was hitting a lot of other towns in Aug-Sep. They probably could have frontloaded things into Apr through Jun in the house shows with Hogan chasing, then do a major injury angle that gives Hogan a vacation for August and most of July. Someone else could have stepped in to challenge Randy in that stretch. Beefcake got most of the "off night" matches, but I would have looked for someone else... though Hogan was pretty insanely protective if his spot and not wanting someone else to shine in it. It might have draw a bit more house show money, though the fued as it was drew well. It almost certainly would have draw more buy for SummerSlam, which would have made for a perfect climax for their rivalry. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 If I'm remembering correctly, Muta was billed as Kabuki's son at first (hence the connection with the green mist) and that's how Gary Hart became involved since he managed Kabuki for a while too. I think it might have been one of those angles completely invented by the magazines to be honest. Yeah, I think they were putting their own spin on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 5, 2010 Report Share Posted October 5, 2010 One thing that I thought particularly hurt the Mania V match was how simplistic the finish was. Heel's finisher, kickout, Hulk Up, three punches, big boot, legdrop. As far as I remember, Hogan hadn't quite yet settled into his formula where he did that exact same finish in every match, like he would into the 90s. He'd never used that exact sequence at Mania before. So it might just annoy some folks that it was an early appearance of what would later become a hated cliche. One weird thing about Gary Hart. Did he often have issues with not wanting to sell? I admittedly haven't seen much of him, but I specifically remember one of the Flair/Funk matches where Ric hits Gary... who basically just acts pissed off and doesn't even attempt to sell that The World Champion's haymaker had hurt him at all. Odd thing for a manager to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 I saw a fun Kabuki v. Muta match from WAR which ends with Kabuki getting on the mike and yelling "MUUUUTAAAA MY SOOOON, I FUCKING KILL YOU" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuttsy Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 If I'm remembering correctly, Muta was billed as Kabuki's son at first (hence the connection with the green mist) and that's how Gary Hart became involved since he managed Kabuki for a while too. I think it might have been one of those angles completely invented by the magazines to be honest. Yeah, they were putting their own spin on it. Muta was billed as Kabuki's son initially on TV: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 6, 2010 Report Share Posted October 6, 2010 I was referring to the idea that somehow Muta was forced to have Gary Hart as his manager as the angle that was mostly invented by the magazines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuttsy Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Ah, my bad for misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Colt's podcast continues to deliver with Delaney two weeks ago and Necro this week talking about The Wrestler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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