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QUOTE(MJH @ Feb 2 2008, 08:23 PM)

And Jumbo's BIG flaw, as we all know, was he was LAZY~.

Wether or not Jumbo was lazy or not it's a more complex observarion then to just pass with sarcasm. There was a period where he was one of the problems in AJPW's declining popularity. Some of that can be explained by the change in wrestling style which Sayama and Choshu brought to Japanese wrestling with the more impact based energy bouts in the early 80's. Jumbo was too comfortable in his old dated 70's style that it didn't even seem inspired a lot of the time doing that. Thankfully Riki Choshu came to AJPW in 1985 and at least Tenryu was eager to learn and get influenced by this new and more exciting style. Jumbo wasn't too eager at first, but after a while he warmed up to it and started to get influenced as well.

 

However when Choshu left again 1987 he went back into the 70's persona again and that wasn't a good thing after a couple of years of hot Choshu product. Jumbo didn't even seem interested in doing that again, but then Tenryu really took command and was the driving force of the company the rest of the 80's. When he split and started to feud with Jumbo in mid-87 it didn't explode at first, but they slowly got more hype with Tenryu doing the Choshu style and getting more and more hard hitting (thanks to Yokozuna Wajima not knowing how to sell properly as they had to hurt him to get the reaction desired). Jumbo adapted again, but he was rarely the iniciator in his career until Tenryu left and Tsuruta was the grand old daddy mixing it with the younger generation of Misawa, Kawada and so on.

 

 

As for Liger. He's a junior heavyweight that should be remembered. A legend? Yeah, sure. He was a very positive light in NJPW. I'm very familiar with Yamada/Liger's career from 1985-93 and based off that I would say that Sayama's 3 years during 1981-83 was higher/better then Liger's prime, but the longivety and amounts of good work Liger had behind him qualifies him as one of the great juniors. If he belongs in the group of all time best? Borderline, IMO. But I'll say this; He was rarely a negative influence and people remember him for being the driving force for junior heavyweights in Japan where being a heavyweight means a lot more.

Just for the record, I find Jumbo Tsuruta the greatest wrestler my eyes and heart have had the privilege to see and feel. I was reading through some old "Jumbo is lazy" Meltz/JDW discussions, and came across this. I don't have too much of a great knowledge of the era being talked about, night in night out that is(having seen some of the big matches), so it'd be great to have an insight of someone like John on this.

I threw in the Liger/Sayama part too for anyone who wants to comment, and am wholeheartedly hoping this isn't against the original posters wishes or in any way could hurt him.

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So who's his next fight going to be with? Kongo? It's got to be someone easy right?

You're now 0 for 2. (Kongo isn't "someone easy")

 

It's always a good time to stop digging.

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Just for the record, I find Jumbo Tsuruta the greatest wrestler my eyes and heart have had the privilege to see and feel. I was reading through some old "Jumbo is lazy" Meltz/JDW discussions, and came across this.

Old discussions and you came across something written on *Saturday*:

 

QUOTE(MJH @ Feb 2 2008, 08:23 PM)

:)

 

Where is it from. I'd be interested in seeing the rest of the discussion.

 

John

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When I was watching more TM I era NJPW matches Sayama was probably my least favorite guy in the ring. Wait, he was better than that quarterback guy, whoever that was. I was delighted by the Los Brazos slapstick, Gran Hamada, the great Kuniaki Kobayashi and whoever else participated in the matches. Sayama? He wasn't bad, but I seriously wondered why he was chosen to be the ace. Maybe I need to watch more Sammy Lee matches

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In your opinion, True or False?

 

The Rockers vs the Orient Express from the Royal Rumble is the best WWF/WWE tag team match ever

 

Personally, I think it's up there at the very top with only the very top stuff like Angle/Benoit vs Edge/Rey ahead of it. I think this match really sets itself as being different, thoughtful and innovative. If only things went down a little differently, I think it would be talked about as one of the best tag matches ever. From anywhere.

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When I was watching more TM I era NJPW matches Sayama was probably my least favorite guy in the ring. Wait, he was better than that quarterback guy, whoever that was. I was delighted by the Los Brazos slapstick, Gran Hamada, the great Kuniaki Kobayashi and whoever else participated in the matches. Sayama? He wasn't bad, but I seriously wondered why he was chosen to be the ace. Maybe I need to watch more Sammy Lee matches

I'm guessing it was a combo of his speed and athleticism, and because the Tiger Mask character was popular with the kids. Did Sayama ever do any jobs as Tiger Mask? All of his title losses were him vacating due to injury and/or retirement.

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When I was watching more TM I era NJPW matches Sayama was probably my least favorite guy in the ring. Wait, he was better than that quarterback guy, whoever that was. I was delighted by the Los Brazos slapstick, Gran Hamada, the great Kuniaki Kobayashi and whoever else participated in the matches. Sayama? He wasn't bad, but I seriously wondered why he was chosen to be the ace. Maybe I need to watch more Sammy Lee matches

I'm guessing it was a combo of his speed and athleticism, and because the Tiger Mask character was popular with the kids. Did Sayama ever do any jobs as Tiger Mask? All of his title losses were him vacating due to injury and/or retirement.

 

He was chosen to be the ace because there was nobody even close to approaching his wow factor. Over 20 yrs have past and there is still nobody who has surpassed his wow factor with the audience. Just imagine what it was like to watch him THAN. Bret Hart may have said it best. He is the Bruce Lee of wrestling.

Sayama was just untouchable in what he did. It's kind of like how Bruce Lee will never be surprassed. The same thing with Tiger Mask.

 

Speed, athleticism, innovation, mind blowing awesomeness and a great gimick based off a popular show that Sayama took to very well. Nobody else could've made it believable that a superhero could come to life because they just wouldn't seem like a superhero. Sayama did because that guy could do things that others couldn't just like a superhero can. He could do anything. And stuff like the dance he would always do in the ring just added to his presence.

 

To my knowledge, he was never defeated except for a DQ loss to the Dynamite Kid. Maybe there was some kind of disputed ending with Black Tiger too. I don't know. That was the way it had to be though. The guy couldn't lose. It was part of his legend, his superhero presence, the myth of Tiger Mask. It wouldn't be believable for him to lose. That's why he was the ace.

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Just a thought, but I really wish WCW hadn't stopped doing the Crockett Cup. The whole 1-night (or two nights I guess) tag team tournament is a really cool idea and I would have been great to see that every year in WCW. I guess the closest somewhat modern equivalent I can remember would be the 2000 ECW tag title tournament, but I would have loved to see such a tourney in 90s WCW, particularly '92 (and the NWA tournament doesn't count since that used too much outside talent and didn't span the whole roster). It would work in today's WWE too. Imagine a one-week tag tournament spanning Raw, SD and ECW with everyone from Cena, HHH, Undertaker, Michaels, Edge, and Orton to the Hardys, Punk, Big Daddy V and Khali down to Jesse and Festus, whatever they're calling the Majors brothers now and Collin Delaney (with whom I'm sure they'd do a comedy spot of someone getting stuck with him as a partner). That shit would rule.

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He was Alex's father, although that was the only match of his I've seen and yes, he looked good.

Loss, which match of his were you referring to? The one I'd seen was actually a tag match. It was TM and Kengo Kimura against Wright and Blackman, from the Tiger Mask "1st Dimension" commercial tape. It was clipped up, but most of what was shown were TM/Wright exchanges which were fabulous. I just ordered the six volume set from IVP, which has another tag match, and a singles between them for the WWF Jr. Title.

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I would like to know your thoughts on the match I uploaded as the style is pretty unique. It is amazing how much the style in CWA changed every five years from 81 till 91

 

There was also a nice 6 Man from the NJPW 83 set with Inoki vs. Wright exchanges that I thought were interesting.

 

And I am still sad that the TM I vs. Mile Zrno match from 83 was clipped to hell. Biggest disappointment I had last year regarding wrestling

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I stumbled upon the directory for (I think) a Japanese website some time back that had a lot of videos of fancams from Japanese house shows, one of which was my Steven Wright experience, a match with Yoshiaki Fujiwara that was pretty awesome. For the life of me, I can't recall how to get to the website, but just so you know, that's out there as well in some form or another.

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Guest Real Man's Man

I stumbled upon the directory for (I think) a Japanese website some time back that had a lot of videos of fancams from Japanese house shows, one of which was my Steven Wright experience, a match with Yoshiaki Fujiwara that was pretty awesome. For the life of me, I can't recall how to get to the website, but just so you know, that's out there as well in some form or another.

http://home.intercity.or.jp/users/saigou/asf/

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