Comments that don't warrant a thread

[Loss]

I love it when old wrestling DVDs have bizarre commercials.

[Loss]

Going through the entire season of 1990 World Championship Wrestling for a top secret special project (details soon). I'm about halfway through, and had some observations:

 

History has been far too hard on Lex Luger. Yes, Luger never met his potential as a full draw. But I think Meltzer oversimplifies it when he states that it was because despite getting an enormous push for years, he never found a way to connect with the audience and never learned how to have a great match on top without Flair across from him. Dave is someone who talks about how Goldberg on top of WCW in the late 90s could have been part of a really successful package, and Goldberg was far more limited than Luger was, and Luger at his peak was very popular as well. The major problem was that he was a huge choke artist who could never win the belt when he was pushed to challenge for it.

 

WCW positioned Luger so many times as the huge favorite going into title matches, and while they always gave him an out, they never just pulled the trigger and put the title on him, and I think that's what in the end hurt him more than anything else. I really think 1990 is the year that killed him watching this, because he had found his calling as a loner heel in 1989, and when Flair turned and Sting got sidelined, he was turned out of necessity when he had momentum. Flair turning would have left him a bit aimless anyway, which is part of the reason Flair turning was a bad idea. By 1990, Ric Flair on top with Horsemen protection was such a stale concept, and while Flair was the biggest draw they had, he wasn't the answer to righting the ship, and while there were no guarantees anything would have worked, you really wish looking back they had elevated Brian Pillman or Scott Steiner, or made a play to hang on to Muta to see how he'd fare in that role as a babyface coming after Flair. Again, no guarantees anything would have worked, and I can understand the mindset to a degree, as Flair/Luger had a track record of drawing in 1988, and they just needed something to fill time until Sting healed from his injury. But in doing so, they really hurt what they had built up the year before with Luger.

 

And why was Flair turning anyway? From my understanding, Flair simply preferred being a heel, and booked his own heel turn. But what reason was there to turn? The only reason would be to build heat for the match with Sting, which makes sense, but in a way, they booked themselves into a corner, because there was absolutely no other reason at the time for Flair to go heel again, and after the big Sting win and Flair rematches, what would they have done with a heel Flair at that point? While the matches would have been a step down, babyface Flair dropping the title to a heel Luger to feud with a babyface Sting, who would eventually win the title from Luger, seems like it might have cast everyone involved in a better role, with the idea that they could have saved Flair/Sting for later in the year as a babyface match, selling it as Sting's chance to prove that he's not only the champ, but now The Man.

 

WCW was really damned if they did and damned if they didn't with Flair at this point. If they pushed him, it limited their ability to build new top heels, and if they didn't push him, they risked alienating the hardcores, which were pretty much the majority of what they were drawing at that point anyway. He needed to be phased down, but there was no one around who was as over who could do those matches and sell so well for babyfaces who needed to get over. Until Rick Rude and Vader came in 1991/1992, they never really had anyone pass through that could have filled that role either. What's so odd about it all is that I'm not sure WCW would have been nearly as interested in Rude if they still had Flair at that point, even though phasing Flair out and putting the promotional push behind Rude would have at the very least been a risk worth taking.

 

While I'm not saying it's entirely untrue, Flair has been so eternally cleared of doing anything wrong during this time, to a point I feel that really needs to be looked at again. Flair is far from the worst offender, but he was definitely no saint, and did what he had to do to protect his spot. John made a good post recently about his Bash '91 power play that ties into this. Along those same lines, it's also worth mentioning again that he refused to drop the belt to Luger in St. Louis a year before because he never received the request in writing, and Dave has mentioned in the Observer that while it is true that Flair tried to avoid dropping the belt for Luger because he had made a promise to Sting, all along Flair had planned to regain the belt from Sting anyway.

 

Everyone who booked during this time period made plenty of mistakes, but some of this was really a no-win situation.

[sek69]

Not only was Lex pushed as someone the fans would think is the next world champion but never won the big one, when they finally did put the belt on him it was at Bash 1991 which was guaranteed to turn any remaining fans against him. I often felt that was kind of a set up on Lex, they had to know the crowd was going to take a giant shit on whatever they tried to do so why risk killing a guy who still had a chance to be a top player? It truly was a no-win battle, but only WCW could find a way to make it even worse.

 

 

Also it's hilarious that history is starting to look at Flair's booking a little more honestly. It wasn't that long ago that mentioning him as anything other than the valiant White Knight fighting a heroic (yet ultimately losing) battle against the scourge of Dusty would get you a savage tongue lashing on the interwebs.

[Loss]

Also, by 1991, they had turned Luger so many times that I think people just got sick of him always going back and forth. When he won the belt, he needed to beat Flair for it, considering he had been chasing him for three years. Not beating Flair did him in.

 

1991 Luger was also incredibly bloated. He had probably put on a good 10-15 pounds of muscle, and looked ridiculous by the time of SuperBrawl II when he was probably a legit 300 lbs.

[kjh]

Also it's hilarious that history is starting to look at Flair's booking a little more honestly. It wasn't that long ago that mentioning him as anything other than the valiant White Knight fighting a heroic (yet ultimately losing) battle against the scourge of Dusty would get you a savage tongue lashing on the interwebs.

With all due respects to Loss and jdw, whose analysis is I think spot on, they are not the ones writing history. The ones that are (Ric Flair, WWE and Dave Meltzer, mainly) still paint the same picture. Meltzer is at least open about the political games Flair played, even though he tends to take his side on his fights with Herd. Flair actually won the battle with Herd, as he wanted out and got out with the title belt to do the dream feud with Hogan in the WWF, but ultimately his penchant for linking key jobs to contract extensions cost him dearly when he used the same tactic with Eric Bischoff. Also, his earlier refusals to put Luger over caught up with him, as Luger was tight with Nash and encouraged him to bury Flair when he had the book in WCW.

 

Personally, I think Flair gets too much of a free pass for his tactics, when others get heavily criticised for similar behaviour. Brock Lesnar, for example, got tons of heat for not coming back and dropping the IWGP title to Hiroshi Tanahashi when New Japan wanted to cut his pay.

[jdw]

To Loss's point, I'm not sure what they could have done at that point. It seems like it was clear that Flair was going to drop the title to Sting, and to a degree it seemed like Flair was okay with it. I haven't re-read the 1990 WON's in the long time, but in the back of my mind it seemed like Sting was going to win it at the 2/90 PPV. He won it so quickly coming back at a time when they could have easily worked a "chase" storyline with Sting winning it at Starcade. Flair also refused to drop the title to Lex, which was 3/90 in Chicago if I recall correctly, and the Saint Ric version of it is that it would blow the Flair-Sting big match when Sting was ready to comeback.

 

Looking back...

 

Flair-Sting hadn't been played up since the early 1988 time frame.

 

Flair-Luger hadn't been played up since the second half of 1988.

 

Both were touched on at Starcade 1989.

 

I tend to agree that perhaps a plan of Luger winning the belt at the 2/90 PPV, putting Flair on the "chase" with perhaps a blow off in a Cage Match at the Bash in July to end their feud. That then flips eventually to Sting-Luger climaxing at Starcade, with Flair-Sting being left on deck for 1991.

 

02/06/90 Clash 10

02/25/90 WrestleWar

05/19/90 Capital Combat

06/13/90 Clash 11

07/07/90 Bash

09/05/90 Clash 12

10/27/90 Havoc

11/20/90 Clash 13

12/16/90 Starcade

 

How you fill it out... not entirely sure other than Flair-Luger at WW and the Bash, and Lex-Sting at Starcade. To max Starcade, it might be best to have it the first singles match between the two of the year. I would have gotten a Wargames in there somewhere, but if you get too much of a Team Lex, then you're going Horsemen all over again. Then again, having the Horsemen turn on Flair and Sting does make for an interesting storyline. The question then becomes who in addition to Arn and Lex makes up the New Horsemen, and who makes up the Flair & Stinger group... and whether one wants to get the Steiner involved in any of that, or off working their own angles.

 

Also, what type of "filler" can one run at Lex in addition to Flair and Sting since a two feud year over the World Title is stretching things.

 

Flair has the natural feud with Arn after he's done with the World Title, which can be blown off at Starcade as well... toss them in a cage and let them have a bloodbath. Sure, it's Flair's fourth cage match of the year (blow off with Lex, Wargames and blow off with Arn), but it keeps him engaged at the top of the cards which is a must given what you're paying him.

 

Could any of this have drawn?

 

We tend to forget that wrestling was really declining at this point. We could come up with all sorts of good ways to book and dig up old Bowdren the Booker stuff to try to make good storylines. But it was really a declining phase. Flair had been around for ages. The "fresh" part of Ric in this period was that he was a "face" for the first time nationally. But that didn't draw all that greatly against Funk. It did okay, some positives... but nothing off the charts or sustained. Would he draw better as a face against Lex? Would Sting-Lex draw?

 

I'm not sold.

 

John

[smkelly]

Would he draw better as a face against Lex? Would Sting-Lex draw?

I'm thinking no on Lex/Flair drawing. They would have had to push the envelope, and have Lex turn full blown heel, decimating Flair, bloodying him, injuring him. Have him go on a mean streak that'd make fans absolutely hate him. But he'd need a mouth piece, because Luger has never been able to talk worth a damn. But it's certainly possible it'd fail due to the already overbooked turns.

 

In 1990, it's doubtful that Sting/Luger would draw. I was 5 in April, and was always partial to Sting and Pillman. Luger always struck me as dull and boring, and although he was a genetic monster, that doesn't sell me. WCW would have to book it just right, which they wouldn't, the match would be a snoozer, cementing the failure even further.

[smkelly]

What's a good result website for AJPW? Hopefully there is a Stuart like site for AJPW. I've done a few google searches, but only seem to find a few shows here and there.

[Bob Morris]

Everything is purely speculative, other than I believe John is right when he says that Sting/Lex was going to be the program had Sting not injured his knee and he got the title from Flair in 2/90.

 

I suspect, at some point, that Sid Vicious still would have been worked in as a challenger against Sting, although it wouldn't have come as soon as it did. Certainly no Black Scorpion, who was created because they didn't have a challenger lined up for Sting other than Sid.

 

I would say Sting/Luger would have done better business than what was presented at the time, but that's mostly because the Black Scorpion was so bad that it caused more people to tune out than tune in. But I doubt it would have done huge business. Sting wasn't really drawing that much interest to begin with... he was popular, but there wasn't much to indicate he could take the ball and run with it to the level that Flair did at one point or that Hogan generally did in WWF at the time.

 

When the steroid scandals in WWF arose, though, that was going to affect WCW as well because pro wrestling as a whole would have been tossed under the bus.

[MikeCampbell]

Re: Flair/Luger/Sting. This is the only scenario I can see playing out:

 

Luger wins the title at WrestleWar.

 

Luger retains over Flair in the cage at Capitol Combat.

 

Flair challenges Luger at Clash 11 but Sting makes his return and costs Flair the title.

 

Sting/Flair still wrestle at the GAB, but who does Luger wrestle? Sid? Windham? I'm lost for a good opponent for him.

 

Halloween Havoc can be used for the War Games: The Four Horsemen vs. Luger/Sting/Pillman/Zenk (Steiners were feuding with the Nasty Boys at this time). I'd actually give the Horsemen the win after some sort of mis communication between Sting and Luger, which leads to . . . .

 

Luger turns heel on Sting at Clash 13.

 

Sting wins the title from Luger at Starrcade.

 

Instead of jumping right into Flair/Sting in '91, WCW could have brought back Muta for a spell to work a program with Sting over the title.

[jdw]

I'm actually taking a step back - trying to figure out how you would book things from a pre-Starcade 1989 standpoint. It appears that as Sting goes over Flair there, that the plan was getting set to do Sting-Flair at the 2/90 WW *and* for Sting to win the belt. They just go right out and turn Flair and the Horsemen in early 1990. I assume Loss is reading the WONs from that period... was it a spur of a moment thing, or the plan?

 

If you take a step back and the plan is to *not* do Flair-Sting at WW, that means:

 

* Flair-Luger

 

* Sting doesn't get injured

 

Reality check: Sting only got injured because they did that stupid ass angle with the cage after the Horsemen turned on Sting.

 

That lets one leave Luger heel, and he was at the time a pretty decent heel. It lets one leave Flair face for his feud with Luger, and after dropping the title to Luger chasing him for "Number 7". And Luger holding him off, thanks in the end to some help from the New Horsemen.

 

What do you do with Sting while Flair-Luger is going on?

 

Not sure. You don't want to burn Arn's "turn on Flair" heat off by having Sting kick his ass all over the country. So you have to find some other member of the Horsemen to be of the semi-stature of Sting, and for lack of a better option, have them battle over a title Sting hadn't won up to that point: the US Title.

 

Barry wasn't back until a later in 1990, so he doesn't fit.

 

I like Pillman, but he isn't at that level.

 

I think Sid would be a Really Bad Idea.

 

Drawning a blank here.

 

Anyway, they have a natural reason for Flair to snap at some point in 1991 on Sting:

 

He wants "Number 7" to tie Harley. And he got "cheated" out of it against Luger. Flair's desperate for it... it's his Legacy... and he snaps off on Sting to get it.

 

By 1991, they wouldn't have run a full blown Flair-Sting feud since 1988. About the right time for it.

 

John

[kjh]

WCW brought in a lot of talent whose priority was Japan throughout 1990 into the spring of 1991, like Bigelow, Hansen, Spivey and Vader. Sting could have done TV/PPV feuds with a couple of them, while Luger feuded with Flair.

[Strummer]

mentioned at DVDVR

 

look at this WWF House Show Card:

 

WWF @ East Rutherford, NJ - Meadowlands - July 9, 1987 (5,469)

SD Jones defeated Steve Lombardi

Jerry Allen pinned Rick Rude with a sunset flip

Scott Casey defeated Iron Mike Sharpe

Killer Kahn pinned Brady Boone

Koko B. Ware pinned Nikolai Volkoff

Don Muraco fought Bob Orton to a double disqualification

Jim Brunzell & the Junkyard Dog defeated Kamala & Sika

George Steele defeated Danny Davis in a steel cage match by escaping through the door

 

 

HA! 5,469 people for Danny Davis v George Steele on top?! IN A CAGE!?

[khawk20]

The one that always makes me shake my head from that card was Rude losing to Allen. Rude was new to the area IIRC...seemed like a weird job to make him do.

[Bix]

Were Steele and Davis even feuding?

[Kronos]

Totally random, but I was watching the Dusty Secrets of the Ring shoot, and he is talking about Samuel Clemens. He says something like, "I'll bet you don't even know who Samuel Clemens is, do you? It's Mark Twain! No wonder ROH isn't drawing any money, Gabe. . ."

 

Awesome.

[khawk20]

Were Steele and Davis even feuding?

Graham's site says that Steele beat Davis by countout the month before. Davis probably ran away and the cage rematch was born out of that.

 

No real history between the two that I can remember.

[Sean Liska]

I remember an SNME match between Davis and Steele in the summer of 87. Think there was an angle involved.

[Al]

I watched a good chunk of PTW from 1987 thanks to 24/7. I'm pretty sure they were running a Steele/Davis angle.

[Bob Morris]

I do remember the SNME angle, but I suspect it was done just to set up a house show run.

 

Davis just never had any lasting appeal once he did the WMIII six-man match. They tried to get programs going but he never really kept his heat. It didn't help that Steele was a novelty act and that Sam Houston (who they tried a program with against Davis) didn't get over.

[khawk20]

I do remember the SNME angle, but I suspect it was done just to set up a house show run.

 

Davis just never had any lasting appeal once he did the WMIII six-man match. They tried to get programs going but he never really kept his heat. It didn't help that Steele was a novelty act and that Sam Houston (who they tried a program with against Davis) didn't get over.

Yeah, after WM it wasn't like anyone saw the lead-in for any of the WWF shows then and went "oooo, Danny Davis!" when they said a match of his was coming up.

 

...at least I assume this to be true......

[shoe]

TV main was Rhodes vs. Anderson which ended with Bobby Eaton, Steamboat, Steve Austin, Windham, Zbyszko and Ron Simmons all getting involved in the post-match in that order **1/2.

 

 

This is from the 12/23/91 Observer. I think Meltzer was off on this bout that aired on the 1/4/92 Saturday show with the finish shown on the Main Event. This bout was great and one of the best free t.v bouts of the year in the states. It was probaly better than anything the WWF put on ppv in 1991..Anderson and Rhodes worked so well and told a really compelling story. Both wrestlers were great at working the limbs and selling the damage. If the wrestlers tacked a finish on it we would have had a MOTY level bout.

[Loss]

Yes, this match is one of my favorites of '92, and possibly the best Arn or Dustin singles match I've seen. **1/2 is lowballing.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

The only other person I can recall getting this kind of consistent mocking of their sexuality in snide asides is Pat Patterson, and, well, all those gay-bashing jokes Ross kept hitting on him did have that kernel of truth of course.

Lots of regular sexualy snide asides were also aimed at Ross. Heyman, and Cornette as being homosexuals on commentary as well.

 

I'm trying to remember which face Flair always talked about as having hard time swallowing his nut.

 

When has JR ever been called gay on commentary?

[MikeCampbell]

Granted, I haven't watched a full episode of RAW in months and haven't watched SD period in even longer, so I'm not quite up to date on what's going on. But did anyone see Edge's loss and win coming at all? I thought it was weird that they put mid carders like Kofi and Knox in the Chamber match, but I wouldn't have called Edge winning the World Title in a million years.

 

I figured that Edge would either win his match and then lose the WWE Title to HHH at WM, or he'd lose it in the Chamber to HHH and then challenge him at WM.