Comments that don't warrant a thread

[Jingus]

Extrapolating from small unrepresentative samples leads to faulty conclusions that don't hold up in reality. You're going to find the dregs of wrestling fandom at two-bit indy shows. It doesn't follow that 20 years ago, every fan was a dumb mark who believed it was real.

I never said "every fan", I never even implied it. All I said was that there used to be a lot more people who thought it was real than there are now.

[smkelly]

 

Did this joke elsewhere, I liked it enough to do it again.

 

Hah. That is awesome.

[MikeCampbell]

Extrapolating from small unrepresentative samples leads to faulty conclusions that don't hold up in reality. You're going to find the dregs of wrestling fandom at two-bit indy shows. It doesn't follow that 20 years ago, every fan was a dumb mark who believed it was real.

I think Keith nailed it here. A fan threw a chair at Brodie Lee at a show last year, Brodie followed him out the front door and punched him out in the parking lot. Not one person faulted him for it. In fact, he wound up being turned into a babyface over it. Back in 'the day' when everyone thought it was 100% real, Brodie would probably need police escorts to and from ringside.

[Jingus]

I'm not sure what you guys are even trying to argue here. That almost nobody now thinks it's real? Yeah, we established that (although I still strongly disagree with anyone who claim that there are no true believers, I've met these frightening people over and over). That almost nobody thought it was real in previous eras, and the general audience had the same attitude towards the show as they do now? The much higher numbers of fan attacks back then, compared to their rarity now, tends to prove otherwise.

 

When else does that ever happen in any kind of fictional media? You don't see people rushing the stage to try and beat the shit out of Richard III. Nobody tried to kick the actor playing Biff Tannin's ass on the street because he was so mean to the McFlys. When something happens in other genres, like Dimebag Darrell getting shot, it's always a huge deal because of how rarely these things happen. Not in wrestling. Every single veteran who's been around long enough has stories of fans trying to beat them up or even murder them. Only in wrestling did you get this kind of violent behavior from the audience towards the performers on such a frequent basis. Why is that? Even real combat sports don't get that sort of thing, nobody was trying to shank Mike Tyson whenever he walked back down the aisle from another sicty-second squash match.

 

Only in wrestling did you see rates of violence that high. I've always been curious as to why that is, but nobody ever seems to want to discuss the possible sociological roots behind the phenomenon. The debate always gets deflected into basically "well, they were just all crazy!". Why would wrestling attract such a staggeringly higher percentage of crazy people, more than either fictional entertainment or real sports?

[MikeCampbell]

The point to my post, and Brodie story, is that the people you deal with very well may be the exception, not the rule. Look at the recent cases in the WWE of fans trying to run into the ring. More often than not it's alcohol induced and/or someone just wanting to get on TV or PPV.

 

Also, Jingus, look at the area you're working in. I'm not taking shots here, I promise, but there's a reason that the stereotypes for wrestling fans are similar to the stereotypes for people down south.

 

Finally, just to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, wrestling fans are probably the greatest number of people who believe something not real is real, but not the only ones. I think I've told this story before, but I'll repeat it anyway. My wife once told me a story that a budding musician got a gig on 90210 as Donna's abusive boyfriend, and would have protests at his gigs and promotional appearances that he needed to stop hitting Donna.

[sek69]

It's also been somewhat established that a large amount of the "I nearly got killed by crazy fans upset by my heel tactics" stories were carny bullshit told by old timers wanting to prove things were tougher in their day. I think it's one of the main reasons people in TEH BIZ by and large dislike the internet, since people are more likely to call you out on your tall tales.

 

 

The only territory that seems to have legit fan encounter stories is Mid-South/UWF and that was in large part due to Watts' policy of keeping kayfabe by confronting fans.

[Tim Evans]

Only in wrestling did you see rates of violence that high. I've always been curious as to why that is, but nobody ever seems to want to discuss the possible sociological roots behind the phenomenon. The debate always gets deflected into basically "well, they were just all crazy!". Why would wrestling attract such a staggeringly higher percentage of crazy people, more than either fictional entertainment or real sports?

I seriously doubt it's more higher than Soccer in Europe.

[Jingus]

The point to my post, and Brodie story, is that the people you deal with very well may be the exception, not the rule. Look at the recent cases in the WWE of fans trying to run into the ring. More often than not it's alcohol induced and/or someone just wanting to get on TV or PPV.

But it still doesn't take the place of physical attacks elsewhere. Nobody's running onto the stage to beat up Leno, or rushing the court to take a swipe at Kobe, or charging the octagon to get revenge on Brock for mowing down their favorite fighter. Yet you will see a guy run into the ring to try and knock Eddie Guerrero off a ladder. There was a while there at WCW that someone was hitting the ring on a seemingly weekly basis, despite the fact that the intruders always got their ass kicked and hauled away by security and even the announcers called them idiots. It wasn't glamorized, the act was depicted as immoral and stupid, yet it kept happening.

 

Finally, just to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, wrestling fans are probably the greatest number of people who believe something not real is real, but not the only ones.

Yeah, of course, but why is wrestling's rate of True Believers so much dramatically higher than any other medium?

 

It's also been somewhat established that a large amount of the "I nearly got killed by crazy fans upset by my heel tactics" stories were carny bullshit told by old timers wanting to prove things were tougher in their day. I think it's one of the main reasons people in TEH BIZ by and large dislike the internet, since people are more likely to call you out on your tall tales.

 

The only territory that seems to have legit fan encounter stories is Mid-South/UWF and that was in large part due to Watts' policy of keeping kayfabe by confronting fans.

I don't agree with all that. Plenty of documented examples of fan attacks happening in various places and various time periods. It's not even a "it was just in the South, because southerners suck", lots of incidents happened in arenas like MSG and other population strongholds.

 

Yes, Mid-south did have a disproportionately higher level of attacks than elsewhere, but one big reason those stories are repeated so much is because of Jim Cornette. He's the most prolific shoot-interviewee around, and if you notice, his talking points tend to get repeated a lot on the internet. He tells more Louisiana/Oklahoma stories than anyone else, and says those fans were the craziest around, so naturally the UWF Fans Were Fucking Psycho tales get circulated more often than other similar stories.

 

I seriously doubt it's more higher than Soccer in Europe.

Oh, if you bring other countries/continents into it, I'm sure it gets even worse. America is, sadly, one of the most civilized nations on the planet. (And no, don't start any "bullshit, Canada/England/Wherever is better!" arguments, I'm talking about compared to the vast majority of the other 200+ countries on this planet.) There's gotta be countless stories about luchadores getting attacked in Mexico that we just never hear about, maybe at an even higher rate than happened in America.

[Tim Evans]

If we are just counting America, I would guess that Little league Baseball/football parents are more crazy but that's a whole different topic. I mean look how many people jump on the court and fight in the stands at local basketball games and even Tennis matches. Didn't it happen at the US Open this year?

 

As for the WCW thing, There was a time when they actually encourged fan run ins. And you wonder why that company ran out of business?

[tomk]

When else does that ever happen in any kind of fictional media?

Occasionally a customer at Hooters will go to cop a feel or follow a waitress home.

[Jingus]

That's hardly equitable, that's more akin to a customer breaking the no-hands rule at a strip club.

[ohtani's jacket]

I really think this is a case of knowing more about your hobby than other situations where fan behaviour crosses the line. If you wanna compare wrestling to other forms of fiction, live arena wrestling isn't shot on a secure lot and actors don't taunt and antagonise a live audience, though a great many of them have worked their character in public.

[kjh]

That's hardly equitable, that's more akin to a customer breaking the no-hands rule at a strip club.

What's the difference between a customer breaking the no-hands rule at a strip club and a wrestling fan breaking the no-jumping the guard rail and attacking the wrestlers rule at a wrestling show? Of course, strippers don't want their ugly punters copping a feel, while many old school wrestlers wanted to whip the crowd into such a frenzy that riots were expected. But apart from that, what's the difference?

[El-P]

It's pretty much the same thing indeed.

Then again, maybe the stripper/wrestler comparison will bother some people. Remember how the infamous Flair thread ended up after some pron comparison were made. But anyway, yeah, it's pretty much the exact same thing : simulated violence, simulated sex, making their audience pay to get their fix, but don't lay a finger on the product.

[Sean Liska]

It's also been somewhat established that a large amount of the "I nearly got killed by crazy fans upset by my heel tactics" stories were carny bullshit told by old timers wanting to prove things were tougher in their day. I think it's one of the main reasons people in TEH BIZ by and large dislike the internet, since people are more likely to call you out on your tall tales.

Have you seen the video of Ernie Ladd and Ox Baker fighting out of a riot in the 70's from Cleveland? I don't have a hard time believing that stuff was common. We have a newspaper article confirming that Bobby Heenan was shot at. There are wrestlers with scars from being stabbed. We know people cheered when it was announced that heels died. A fan jumped in the ring with a gun when JYD was doing the blinded angle and was being cornered. These guys used to get visitors in the hospital when they did injury angles. I know it's fun to be cynical and detached and call BS on old wrestling stories, but I have no problem believing that plenty of fans back in the day thought wrestling was real and acted out on those beliefs. Did most of the general public believe that? Of course not.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Most people don't know what a real fight looks like. People's idea of a fight are what they see in the movies: Long and drawn-out battle scenes where someone may take 25 punches to the face, a spin kick, a chair shot, a 15-foot bump and still keep on fighting. The average person doesn't realize that a punch to the face can kill a person instantly or that real fights involve scratching and hair pulling instead of grace and beauty. Because a wrestling match sometimes resembles a movie fight scene, and a lot of people believe movie fight scenes are what real fights are like, they probably are easily duped into thinking wrestling is "real." Of course, this isn't everybody, but I would argue it plays a role.

 

I, too, enjoyed wrestling much more when more people thought it was real. There was more crowd heat and the atmosphere was much better.

[jdw]

I, too, enjoyed wrestling much more when more people thought it was real. There was more crowd heat and the atmosphere was much better.

I never thought wrestling was real, so I've always liked it when it's fake.

 

John

[Log]

Jamie Walters was a singer guy who had a role on 90210 where he was abusive to Tori Spelling's character, Donna. Here's a quote from him via his Wiki:

 

On his Beverly Hills, 90210 role as Ray Pruit: "At first he was like this sort of like the underdog he was this guy from the wrong side of the town, who didn't fit in with the Beverly Hills kids but he had his music and he was honest and all this stuff. And then they started twisting him into being like this abusive evil boyfriend. I was like you either have to change the character or you have to let me off the show, because I'm going out and I'm like trying to sell tickets on our tour, and there's like teenage girls out there who think, like they really think I'm an abusive guy you know, and they'd hold up signs saying like 'leave Donna alone' and that's like so not what I wanted". - 1999[8]

[Loss]

The Hooters analogy is actually spot on.

[KrisZ]

Read the Midnight Express book and look at the stories Corny tells about running the roads of Mid-South fearing for their lives almost every show.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Read the Midnight Express book and look at the stories Corny tells about running the roads of Mid-South fearing for their lives almost every show.

Do you think a lot of these stories are exaggerated? I'm not saying there weren't incidents in the past, but I think a lot of "the whole crowd wanted to legit kill me" and "I had to run for my life" stories have a big fish element to them. If crowds were as bad as some of the old wrestlers describe, there would've been military troops in riot gear at each show.

[kjh]

Most people don't know what a real fight looks like. People's idea of a fight are what they see in the movies: Long and drawn-out battle scenes where someone may take 25 punches to the face, a spin kick, a chair shot, a 15-foot bump and still keep on fighting. The average person doesn't realize that a punch to the face can kill a person instantly or that real fights involve scratching and hair pulling instead of grace and beauty. Because a wrestling match sometimes resembles a movie fight scene, and a lot of people believe movie fight scenes are what real fights are like, they probably are easily duped into thinking wrestling is "real."

To me this is complete nonsense. Most people's idea of a real fight is based on sports like boxing (Muhammad Ali was a much bigger mainstream star than any wrestler in the 1960s and 70s) not exaggerated movie fights. Most people were willing to suspend their disbelief to be entertained and weren't duped into thinking wrestling was "real".

 

The Hooters analogy is actually spot on.

Yeah, pretty much. Of course, the Hooters girl doesn't carry on the con outside the Hooters bar, so it's no wonder wrestlers had more trouble from their patrons than the Hooters girl. If you're a hot tempered jerkoff in public, then you're inevitably going to find trouble.

 

Another reason they got so much trouble is that the local tough guys thought that they could take the phony loudmouth heel wrestler. There are plenty of stories where a wrestler was forced to rip an eye out or use some other extreme tactic to survive the onslaught of someone who could really handle themselves. If those tough guys thought wrestling was legit, then they would have thought twice about attacking them.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I'm saying that Hollywood shaped a lot of people's views on fighting or violence in general. Oviously, people understand movies are not real. But they might think the violence within a movie resembles how real life violence looks. They don't realize that if a fight breaks out on the bus they're riding home, they're not going to see jumping spin kicks or people getting up after getting punched squarely in the face. These people are more easily duped into thinking wrestling was real because the violence in the ring resembles the violence they see on the big screen, which Hollywood has trained them to belive is a "realistic" protrayal of what violence is.

 

Yes, most people were willing to suspend their disbelief. But some weren't, and I feel Hollywood played a part in it.

[tomk]

Yeah, pretty much. Of course, the Hooters girl doesn't carry on the con outside the Hooters bar, so it's no wonder wrestlers had more trouble from their patrons than the Hooters girl.

I should also point out that there is a difference between job where emotional management is aimed at making customer feel well liked/wanted (Hooters) and one where job is getting customer angry. Those are very different emotions.

 

Still people knowingly tip their Hooters girl more than they'd tip a busty barmaid elsewhere, and pays more for chicken wings than he would elsewhere. Customer knows it's blatantly fake, wants his emotions manipulated and goes.

People get emotionally riled up by pro wrestling, even if they know its as blatantly fake as Hooters girl's tits. It's the reason they go to attend shows.

 

Occasionally it goes to far.

[Sean Liska]

Another reason they got so much trouble is that the local tough guys thought that they could take the phony loudmouth heel wrestler. There are plenty of stories where a wrestler was forced to rip an eye out or use some other extreme tactic to survive the onslaught of someone who could really handle themselves. If those tough guys thought wrestling was legit, then they would have thought twice about attacking them.

From what I understand, MMA fighters get challenged to fights pretty regularly as well, so it's not necessarily a case of wrestlers being challenged because people thought they weren't legit.