Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists

[subatomic_elbow]

Too bad Steve Sax got picked up on that murder rap.

[goodhelmet]

That's true, I praise guys like Bill Russell who retired 5 years before I was born or John Havlicek who retired 2 years after I was born. Now, someone like John could probably praise Jerry West or Elgin Baylor without much trouble

Saw very little West, and don't recall Baylor at all. More than willing to praise them based on what I've read. Then again, none of us saw Babe Ruth or Ted Williams hit, but we know they were good.

 

John

 

I know. I was just giving you shit for being old.

[Childs]

It's much easier to judge the performance of athletes we've barely seen than it is to judge the performance of wrestlers we've barely seen. Their statistics, relative to others from the same era, tell us a lot. As for the importance of historical knowledge to sportswriting, it's certainly a nice tool to have but not the be-all, end-all. I know guys without a deep grasp of history who do a great job covering teams.

[EricR]

Kinda off-topic, but to John, has there been a quicker drop from "elite player" to "below average" than Mike Schmidt? From 1974 to 1987 his worst season would still have placed him under MVP consideration, and then 1988 saw him drop off a cliff before dropping even further in '89 before retirement. I know age catches up but there was a such a steep drop from '87 to '88. The only person that I can think of that comes close to that kind of sudden drop-off after prolonged excellence is Andruw Jones.

[Childs]

It's not uncommon for great players to fall off a cliff at the end. If you want an example at the same position, it just happened to Chipper Jones, who hit at an MVP level in 2008 and might be done now. What was unusual about Schmidt was his ability to play near his peak level until age 37.

[artDDP]

Too bad Steve Sax got picked up on that murder rap.

I lol'd.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Kinda off-topic, but to John, has there been a quicker drop from "elite player" to "below average" than Mike Schmidt? From 1974 to 1987 his worst season would still have placed him under MVP consideration, and then 1988 saw him drop off a cliff before dropping even further in '89 before retirement. I know age catches up but there was a such a steep drop from '87 to '88.

The knees went.

 

 

That had me going, "Oh come on, Mike! Greg Luzinski is coaching high school ball and THE BULL ain't crying."

 

Seriously, Schmidt was the fucking man. I lived and breathed Phillies baseball in the 70's and 80's.

 

And I agree that it's great that Alverez is watching 24/7 and finding out how awesome the 80's stuff from the territories is. It's the only time on his radio show he seems to enjoy talking about wrestling. It's just strange to me, as someone who grew up watching all that stuff, and is now reliving it via the DVDVR projects, hearing a guy who's job is covering wrestling discovering stuff that's only 20-30 years old. Eh, I'm just a nerd.

[S.L.L.]

Too bad Steve Sax got picked up on that murder rap.

I lol'd.

 

Soooooo close to making that joke, but I couldn't remember offhand if he got arrested for murder or if he got radiation poisoning.

[EricR]

It's not uncommon for great players to fall off a cliff at the end. If you want an example at the same position, it just happened to Chipper Jones, who hit at an MVP level in 2008 and might be done now. What was unusual about Schmidt was his ability to play near his peak level until age 37.

Chipper Jones put up 2.7-3.2 WAR (depending on whose WAR you trust) in a half season this year though. Schmidt went from MVP candidate to below-replacement overnight.

[tomk]

I think Alvarez's "wow this stuff used to be really good" is refreshing next to normal Alvarez "There's no way anything could have ever been as good as this Angle v Michaels match."

[Childs]

It's not uncommon for great players to fall off a cliff at the end. If you want an example at the same position, it just happened to Chipper Jones, who hit at an MVP level in 2008 and might be done now. What was unusual about Schmidt was his ability to play near his peak level until age 37.

Chipper Jones put up 2.7-3.2 WAR (depending on whose WAR you trust) in a half season this year though. Schmidt went from MVP candidate to below-replacement overnight.

 

Schmidt was still above replacement in 1988. Then he decided to walk away after a rough start in 1989. But regardless of the specific comparison to Chipper, my greater point was that lots of Hall-of-Famers -- whether Babe Ruth, Jimmie Foxx, Joe DiMaggio or George Brett -- have gone from elite to out of the sport in a matter of a few seasons. The slope often gets steep at the end, and there was nothing hugely unusual about the way Schmidt finished up.

[Al]

Kinda off-topic, but to John, has there been a quicker drop from "elite player" to "below average" than Mike Schmidt? From 1974 to 1987 his worst season would still have placed him under MVP consideration, and then 1988 saw him drop off a cliff before dropping even further in '89 before retirement. I know age catches up but there was a such a steep drop from '87 to '88. The only person that I can think of that comes close to that kind of sudden drop-off after prolonged excellence is Andruw Jones.

Lou Gehrig, and I'm probably going to hell for that one.

[Sean Liska]

I think Alvarez's "wow this stuff used to be really good" is refreshing next to normal Alvarez "There's no way anything could have ever been as good as this Angle v Michaels match."

Are you doubting early 2007 WWE being the best TV run any wrestling company has ever had?

[rovert]

Minor but funny one this I posted the cover of the 80s High Flyers VHS in a thread about the new release on the F4W:

 

According to today's update:

-Owen Hart as the Blue Blazer is one of the people on the cover of the new WWE High Flyers DVD (thanks to Jereme Warneck)

[jdw]

Kinda off-topic, but to John, has there been a quicker drop from "elite player" to "below average" than Mike Schmidt? From 1974 to 1987 his worst season would still have placed him under MVP consideration, and then 1988 saw him drop off a cliff before dropping even further in '89 before retirement. I know age catches up but there was a such a steep drop from '87 to '88. The only person that I can think of that comes close to that kind of sudden drop-off after prolonged excellence is Andruw Jones.

As others pointed out, age (38 in 1988) and injuries with Schmidt. He was rounding into better form in Jul-Aug of that year before the final injury. Other key thing is that 1987 was like 1930 while 1988 was like 1968. Obviously not that extreme, but a massive one year change in offense that makes 1987 look better than it was and 1988 look worse than what it was for everyone in those years.

 

1987: 4.52 R/G in the NL

1988: 3.88 R/G in the NL

 

People talk about 2010 being the Year of the Pitcher:

 

2009: 4.43

2010: 4.33

 

1988 was the best year for pitchers since 1968, basically on part with 1963 & 1967. 1987 was basically 1994-98 levels of offense.

 

Agree with the other earlier point that it's not uncommon for players to hit the wall as the age. Mays fell off the cliff quickly, but was also anceint.

 

Given that, some guys who inexplicably feel off the cliff never to return:

 

Dale Murphy: 1987 was as good if not better than his 1982-85 seasons. He was 32 the following year, and dropped down to being medcare (especially considering he was a RF by that point where you need offense). Began to truly suck after that. I recall an injury in there that he played through. He'd be in the HOF if he simply declined at a normal rate. Given the player he was prior to 1988, he should have kept hitting .250 with 25+ HR and 80 BB for another 4 years. His 1986 year in a sense, and it would have gotten him into the HOF. Instead he dropped into th .220s.

 

Carlos Baerga: he fell apart so quickly that some people, myself included, have called falling apart "He Baerga'd". No really a true elite in 1995 if one crunches the numbers, but .314/.355/.452/.807 for a 2B made a lot of people *think* he was an elite player. Just "26" the following year. Probably a few years older, and ate his way out of the league.

 

Robbie Alomar: a great-great-great player in 2001, his last year in CLE. 33 years old, given the juice era, he was a stone cold chinch to get to 3000 hits and the HOF. Traded to the Mets in the off season, and instantly fell apart. If the stuff that's come out in public with the two lawsuits is true, perhaps it was early signs. Really hard to tell. He was also obsessed with getting to 3000 hits, so it's not like after that first bad season that he wouldn't dedicate himself to getting into his best shape to continue the chase the following year. And as much of a prick as he could be, and even though he had history of injury tweaks here and there, he was very similar to Bonds in staying in shape to play when healthy. He was 34, so "decline" isn't surprising back in the old days. In the juice era, we saw plenty of players keep going in this period... and Robbie could have declined at a more normal rate and still got his 3000.

 

One of the classic ones in the 70s was John Mayberry, 1975 to 1976 & 1977. He was devastating from 1972-73 and 1975, and still good in a banged up 1974. He was 26 in 1975, runner up for the MVP as the Royals were just about to go on their 1976-80 run of four division titles and a pennant. Coke did him in. Whitey ran him out of town, and while he looked like he "cameback" occassionally in Toronto, it wasn't close to the same.

 

It would be interesting to see how Mayberry comes out on an old Bill James "Brock 6" type of projection from 1976 on forward. It's possible the Royals wouldn't have been able to retain him, but assuming they did and he had a normal career, he would have been on a great team in those years hitting behind Brett. The Royals went to shit in those years, first with the coked up Mayberry sucking in 1976-77 and then Pete LaCock blowing in 1978-79. Bad luck for the Royals as the got another coke head to play 1B in Willie May Aikens starting in 1980. Offense went way up in 1977, especially dingers... was high again in 1979. Not quite saying he would have ended up a HOFer, but his 1976-1980 would have looked widely different without the coke.

 

John

[KrisZ]

IIRC there were major issues with Murph & Russ Nixon who took over managing the Braves in 1988 which was taking a toll on his spirit plus he had injury issues and kids being born almost every year.

 

Also would you put Fred Lynn on that list or not

[jdw]

Also would you put Fred Lynn on that list or not

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lynnfr01.shtml

 

He never really approached his 1975 and 1979 seasons, but those just look like "peak years". Other than 1981, he was a good-to-very good played in his run with Cal. Increasingly banged up in BAL, but he was 33-36 while with them and 117-137-113-122 OPS+ isn't that bad for a CF in that age range.

 

Freddie's problem is the 1975 was so stong that people expected him to be the next Ted, and it made even very good seasons like 1976 and 1978 look pedestrian. Then 1979 seems to prove it: "That 1975 Fred *really is* how good he is." And after that, it didn't matter if he was good: he wasn't that HOF Level good anymore. 1982 was a fab season... this is a CF we're talking about, and not a bad one defensively. But it wasn't 1975 & 1979.

 

So when he came down from even 1982 levels, it all was a disappionment.

 

The irony is that I bet Fred Lynn comes out ahead of Jim Rice in Win Share/Loss Share analysis. Jim probably had more WS given more plate appearances, but Fred's quality was higher and he's CF... probably close on the WS, and well ahead in the WS%. Dewy of course is better as well.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Another one that comes to mind is Steve Garvey, AS in 1985, a pretty good year in 1986, then completely done in 1987.

[Childs]

I don't know. Garvey wasn't really any good after 1980. I l know he made a couple All-Star teams but that was based on reputation and the fact that he still hit .280. The drop from where he was in 1984 to not deserving a job wasn't that far

 

The fall-off-a-cliff list gets much longer if you open it up to guys like Baerga and Mayberry. Ted Kluszewski averaged 43 homers and hit .300 every year between 1953 and 1956. He never hit more than 15 homers again. In 1953, Al Rosen had one of the great offensive seasons ever by a third baseman. He declined to mere excellence the following season, fell to barely average the following two years and was done after 1956. Charlie Keller looked like a surefire Hall-of-Famer through age 29 and never played more than 83 games in a season again.

 

It all goes to show that the gap between great and obsolete is a lot slimmer than we tend to think.

[KrisZ]

It's amazing how so many guys from the 70's & 80's were going to be surefire HOFers then completely fell apart when they got older thus killing their candidacy.

 

I tell you what would be a good list is guys who fell off a cliff came back then fell off a cliff again and I give you Eric Davis as an example.

[Log]

When did Davis come back off the cliff? I don't remember that.

[Childs]

He had a hell of a year here in Baltimore, long after his glory days in Cincy. Let's see -- .327 with 28 HR, .970 OPS at age 36. Not bad at all. With Davis, of course, injuries were always the problem. He was just never meant to play 150 games a year. But he had Hall-of-Fame talent.

 

Dave Parker was an off-the-cliff guy who bounced back. That was a coke thing.

[KrisZ]

Eric Davis was one of the best baseball players I ever saw live as a kid he was destined for greatness if he stayed healthy. I think going to Los Angeles was maybe the worst thing for his career going back home to team with Straw.

 

Another guy to be considered for the first group of just falling off the cliff is Bobby Bonilla.

[Childs]

Straw drove himself off the cliff but he also had the brief bounceback when he hit 24 homers for the Yanks in 1998. It's kind of amazing that the man was in the thickest fucking wilderness imaginable for seven years but was so talented that he could re-emerge to slug .542 at age 36.

 

For fun off-the-cliff stuff, you have to love Smoky Joe Wood, who went 34-5 at age 22, was done as a pitcher at age 25 but hit .366 with 60 RBI in 66 games as an outfielder at age 31. That's some Roy Hobbs shit.

[EricR]

Eric Davis and Andres Galarraga both fell off a cliff early and then re-emerged big, then fell off again for good. Galaragga's 1998 with the Braves was infinitely more impressive than his Coors Field madness the previous couple seasons. Both also played towards the end of their career with the Giants. Davis was horrible, but Andres had two separate good runs with the Giants.