cactus Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Eh I found the first show to be underwhelming. I loved the main event, but I couldn't get invested in the other matches. White/Naito was decent, it just went way too long which is a common complaint I have with a lot of NJPW's big matches. I'm still looking forward to tomorrow's main event though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted January 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 That was just tremendous. Sheer insanity from Archer vs Mox onward. Great nostalgia trip with the Liger match, too. Between this and the excellent 1/1 AEW show, the year in pro wrestling is off to a rip-roaring start! Really looking forward to Naito vs Okada. How much do those guys have left after what they went through tonight? Hiromu vs Ospreay was the platonic ideal of a 2020s Jr Hwt match. Set the template for the coming decade. Some of the nearfalls tonight really had me going. I was genuinely pulling for Hiromu, and for Naito. That's kind of rare for me, to be on tenterhooks w/r/t who wins and who loses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 It's a little odd of a vibe for the follow up to something with the scope of Wrestle Kingdom to basically be "let's do it again tomorrow." Curious how the crowd's energy will be tomorrow. 1 hour ago, gordi said: Some of the nearfalls tonight really had me going. I was genuinely pulling for Hiromu, and for Naito. That's kind of rare for me, to be on tenterhooks w/r/t who wins and who loses. Hiromu kicking out after Hidden Blade got such a wild reaction. Great moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 3 hours ago, Jmare007 said: Okada vs Ibushi was the typical Okada match were the first third is completely useless. The second third picked up (had some scary bumps too) and the final third was incredible, to the point of the silly no selling doesn't matter. I find this style less problematic when there's not aggressive limb work in that opening section (like a lot of the Okada-Tanahashi matches). It's not like they had to no sell ten minutes of leg work to do the finishing stretch. Agreed that the last third was incredible. I think a lot of the no selling worked here because it came after Ibushi "snapped" (which is established in his character) and can be read as these guys pushing themselves past their limits. Okada needed to find another gear or this madman was going to destroy him (and worse, take his title). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmartMark15 Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Watched the main event twice and while on the first go around I actually enjoyed the first third because of some of the details on the mat and because of the facial expressions and character work both guys brought, I definitely felt the sag the second time around. I still do stand by that the character work uplifts as compared to most Okada matches and I agree that Okada being smart enough not to work any limb for a long time means that no super obtrusive no selling had to occur. But what a fantastic finishing stretch to have. Definitely my favorite Okada match in quite a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Moxley/Archer was a huge letdown. I was hoping for a wild chaotic brawl, but it ended up being a rather tame prop-fest that wouldn't have looked out of place on a WWE Extreme Rules card. Guys taking turns trying to throw each other into elaborate setups of furniture is never going to do much for me, particularly when selling is an afterthought. Archer being none the worse for wear less than thirty seconds after being suplexed onto two chairs and a trash can lid was particularly egregious. Also, Moxley exposed the business by throwing knees in the clinch that came nowhere close to connecting. On the other hand, Naito/White greatly exceeded my expectations. Naito is a shell of what he once was physically and White is one of the few guys in the company who tries to get genuine heel heat, so they worked a match built around storytelling and character work rather than workrate. Of course, Naito completely blew off all of White's leg work, and they got a little too cute at the end with the counters and reversals. Still, a 30-plus minute match that never really dragged and kept the overkill to a minimum is always nice to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makai Club #1 Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 7 hours ago, Jmare007 said: It seemed packed as hell so that would be awesome. Was able to catch the final minutes of Naito vs White with both just hitting stuff and then Naito getting a W in very decisive manner. Okada vs Ibushi was the typical Okada match were the first third is completely useless. The second third picked up (had some scary bumps too) and the final third was incredible, to the point of the silly no selling doesn't matter. I was surprised at how quiet the crowd was for the Okada vs Naito confrontation at the end. Not sure they weren't that interested in a champ vs champ gimmick (would be really weird considering how much the show drew) or they just couldn't choose. Regardless, 2 years they were salivating for Naito and it didn't seem that way...we'll see how it turns out tomorrow. The whole first 15 minutes was Okada egging Ibushi on with the strikes he threw, asking for more aggression from Ibushi. Not to mention Okada being that dominant figure for Ibushi to overcome which was needed for Ibushi's cold killer mode to be that more fulfilling. Him doing it with little adversary makes that spot empty. It's hardly useless. You can't start at 10 straight away, you need things that make it the natural story. It's them setting the ground work for later on when work on the neck is a big focus as well as Ibushi finally snapping on Okada. And it pays off big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 32 minutes ago, Makai Club #1 said: The whole first 15 minutes was Okada egging Ibushi on with the strikes he threw, asking for more aggression from Ibushi. Not to mention Okada being that dominant figure for Ibushi to overcome which was needed for Ibushi's cold killer mode to be that more fulfilling. Him doing it with little adversary makes that spot empty. It's hardly useless. You can't start at 10 straight away, you need things that make it the natural story. It's them setting the ground work for later on when work on the neck is a big focus as well as Ibushi finally snapping on Okada. And it pays off big. Didn't feel the point of the first third was establishing much to be honest. Okada asking for more aggression didn't need that much time for my liking. I didn't think the match gain much from it either. Ibushi tends to go "serious face/obliterate my opponent" mode often so it didn't feel like a big pay off at all to me, just something I expected to happen. I'd LOVE to see a sprint in a big New Japan main event to be honest, it's been so long since we've had one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superkix Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 22 minutes ago, Jmare007 said: I'd LOVE to see a sprint in a big New Japan main event to be honest, it's been so long since we've had one. This would get me back into watching NJPW, honestly. As I get older, I realize I need my wrestling in bite-size fun. Can't do the 30+ minute "modern epics" anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 37 minutes ago, superkix said: This would get me back into watching NJPW, honestly. As I get older, I realize I need my wrestling in bite-size fun. Can't do the 30+ minute "modern epics" anymore. 100% THIS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Loved Archer/Moxley. Thought Ospreay/Takahashi was really good. Honestly kind of feel let down that the main event for both belts is Okada/Naito. It feels old already somehow. Not that I wanted Jay White there but I wanted Ibushi to beat Okada. Maybe that was just wishful thinking but it would have felt fresh & like they had a new guy up top. Of course, Okada is only 32 so it's not like he's in the twilight of his career or anything. I think the window closed on Naito. Maybe I'm wrong but it certainly doesn't feel as special or as over as he was two years ago. That's when they should have pulled the trigger on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Coffey said: Loved Archer/Moxley. Thought Ospreay/Takahashi was really good. Honestly kind of feel let down that the main event for both belts is Okada/Naito. It feels old already somehow. Not that I wanted Jay White there but I wanted Ibushi to beat Okada. Maybe that was just wishful thinking but it would have felt fresh & like they had a new guy up top. Of course, Okada is only 32 so it's not like he's in the twilight of his career or anything. I think the window closed on Naito. Maybe I'm wrong but it certainly doesn't feel as special or as over as he was two years ago. That's when they should have pulled the trigger on him. Like I've said, Naito's coronation has taken so long that Ibushi is getting "Naito'd" right now If somehow Okada is the one winning, that would be hilarious though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Loved the opening 8 man tag. It was just chalked full of nostalgic moments and really was a great way to kick off the show. The two filler tags were perfectly fine with some nice little moments sprinkled in. I really enjoyed the tag title match. I've been high on both Finley and Robinson since they debuted in New Japan so it was a feel good moment to see them win. Archer vs Moxley was my match of the night, just absolutely brutal. I fell asleep during the junior title match. I know a lot of people here loved it, but i have a hard time staying awake during Will Ospreay matches. I don't know if its the same reason I fall asleep every time I'm dragged to the ballet or if its just his matches are usually in the middle of a card and after two to three hours of watching anything while on the sofa I doze off. I dunno. Thought Naito vs Jay White was ok nothing great nothing bad. Loved Okada vs Ibushi. Typical Okada main event, started out dreadfully slow, picked up in the middle with some dangerous bumps and stiff dangerous shots and finished red hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted January 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 As the years go by I also find myself preferring a good 15-minute match with a little story to a half-hour-plus self conscious epic, 9 times out of 10... But come on, be real. Anyone hoping to see a sprint in the main event of Wrestle Kingdom in the Tokyo Dome is going to be disappointed every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 I feel like we need a clearer definition for self-conscious epic because it's starting to mean anything over 20 minutes that has a near fall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Does Kota Ibushi have the best punches in wrestling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Ordinarily the no-selling might have annoyed me, but Ibushi no-selling a dropkick and getting right back on his feet right after he had snapped was an awesome awesome moment. It made sense in the context and Ibushi was the perfect guy to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted January 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 hours ago, FMKK said: I feel like we need a clearer definition for self-conscious epic because it's starting to mean anything over 20 minutes that has a near fall I tend to go with "A match where the wrestlers' main intent seems very much to be 'going for a five star rating' over and above any other considerations." To be clear. I don't think this applies to any of the big three WK 14 day one matches. I was just trying to show that I am not entirely antagonistic toward the viewpoint of Jmare, Superkix, and Something Savage (or anyone else) w/r/t generally preferring shorter matches (I just don't think that 'top of the card at WK in the Dome' is the best place to look for them). 1 hour ago, MoS said: Ordinarily the no-selling might have annoyed me, but Ibushi no-selling a dropkick and getting right back on his feet right after he had snapped was an awesome awesome moment. It made sense in the context and Ibushi was the perfect guy to do it. It was indeed an excellent example of how no-selling can absolutely be an effective tool in a pro wrestler's story-telling kit. It's hard to do properly and it's easy to abuse, but the once-prevalent idea that 'all no-selling is automatically bad regardless of context' is entirely incorrect. I'd argue that Ibushi's no-selling followed by insanely stiff striking was the most compelling stretch of that match. 1 hour ago, joeg said: Does Kota Ibushi have the best punches in wrestling? For a few minutes around the mid-point of that match, he absolutely did. I joked that Shibata was backstage cringing and saying "Yikes! Take it easy, there, kid!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, FMKK said: I feel like we need a clearer definition for self-conscious epic because it's starting to mean anything over 20 minutes that has a near fall Agreed. Neither of the main events was excessive which I think has been the main problem with some of the epic, main event matches of the past. Some of that may be due to the absence of certain workers who tend to go overboard (Kenny Omega for example). The criticism about the early parts of Okada matches is puzzling to me. How many matches ever have a significant amount of "meaningful" segments, especially early on? And regardless, it's pro-wrestling - the idea is to beat the opponent. This is done by wearing them down and hitting big moves that have a chance of getting a pin-fall or submission. If that's not one's cup of tea, fine, but it's a perfectly rational way to present a pro-wrestling match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 This is getting too much into semantics but I don't think "modern epic" = "self conscious epic". I do think the latter has become more common in the last 18 years but regardless, I wouldn't call Okada/Ibushi that. 3 hours ago, gordi said: As the years go by I also find myself preferring a good 15-minute match with a little story to a half-hour-plus self conscious epic, 9 times out of 10... But come on, be real. Anyone hoping to see a sprint in the main event of Wrestle Kingdom in the Tokyo Dome is going to be disappointed every year. I wasn't hoping to see a sprint at all, I knew Okada/ibushi wasn't going any less than 35+ minutes. I was just disputing the "You can't start at 10 straight away, you need things that make it the natural story" point Makai made. It's not like every Okada title defense needs/has to have this formula were he spends 10 to 15 minutes establishing a point that could be done in less than 5. 1 hour ago, World's Worst Man said: The criticism about the early parts of Okada matches is puzzling to me. How many matches ever have a significant amount of "meaningful" segments, especially early on? And regardless, it's pro-wrestling - the idea is to beat the opponent. This is done by wearing them down and hitting big moves that have a chance of getting a pin-fall or submission. If that's not one's cup of tea, fine, but it's a perfectly rational way to present a pro-wrestling match. Then it shouldn't be puzzling my man the "meaningful segment(s)" become more boring or annoying to me with longer matches, because they take too long. And in Okada matches they are even more glaring to me because of how incredible he is at coming up with great finishing sequences that are so long and dramatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted January 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 10 hours ago, Jmare007 said: I'd LOVE to see a sprint in a big New Japan main event to be honest, it's been so long since we've had one. 1 hour ago, Jmare007 said: I wasn't hoping to see a sprint at all, That being said, I understand that both of these things can be true at the same time. You'd love to see it, but you realize it really isn't likely so you don't get your hopes up. Or, maybe you'd love to see it some day but weren't particularly hoping for it yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 So looking at Liger's history and how he has won titles in New Japan, WCW, and CMLL...I was trying to think of anyone else who's won titles in three different countries (in major promotions) and the only other one who comes to mind is Vader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Well that was an unfortunate time for the stream to poop out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 It is Sunday afternoon here in India and I am saving the viewing of the 2nd night for today evening, and hoping against hope I do not get spoiled as far as the main singles matches are concerned. Any idea what the 2nd night attendance is? I know they did not sell out the 2nd night, at least as of Thursday, but the ticket sales were reportedly very good. Overall, would this 2-night show be the biggest money-maker for NJPW this century? Certainly since the bottom fell out in the mid-2000s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Doesn't seem as full as yesterday, but seems like over 30,000 easy. Also Jushin Liger's retirement killed NJPW World, stream crashed and now it's back to the "The live stream will start soon" video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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