Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[El-P]

Remind me the prices of those tickets again ? 

😂

[tcg91]

Can I spend a minute on the women and can anyone help me, as I haven't watched the product in forever and so I might have missed something? While the creative is terrible for everybody, we can all agree that WWE has some very competent male wrestlers at least, but I find the women's roster to be absolutely poor.

Why is WWE overexposing them with 3 matches on yesterday's cards? You can't possibly tell me anyone seriously believed those matches would be good. What's the need of multiple, meaningless belts in the division?

[TheDuke]

4 hours ago, Coffey said:

Drew McIntyre comes out with a sword because he thinks he's the Highlander & "The Samoan Werewolf" comes out wearing a K-Mart Dora the Explorer backpack. 

 

Backpack! Backpack! I'm the map, I'm the map, I'm the map, I'm the map, I'M THE MAP! Swiper no swiping!

 

(Nobody else here has kids? You can see why WWE fans today raised on Dora and Blue's Clues love repetitive wrestling programming where they can chant Yeet! and Yeah! and Yay-Boo during strike exchanges.)

 

Also I think I like Orton better as a face. If they wanted to keep Cody in the main event, he should have been the one to turn heel.

[strobogo]

Terrible effort up and down the line. I don't even think the catering crew could think they were part of a good show.

[DMJ]

2 hours ago, tcg91 said:

Can I spend a minute on the women and can anyone help me, as I haven't watched the product in forever and so I might have missed something? While the creative is terrible for everybody, we can all agree that WWE has some very competent male wrestlers at least, but I find the women's roster to be absolutely poor.

Why is WWE overexposing them with 3 matches on yesterday's cards? You can't possibly tell me anyone seriously believed those matches would be good. What's the need of multiple, meaningless belts in the division?

Aside from the Rumble, I haven't watched a whole WWE show in about 9 months but the WWE product is a hamster wheel so my take is probably as good as anyone's...

The women's roster is actually super stacked. IYO SKY is there. Rhea Ripley is there, still very over, still very capable of delivering good matches. Charlotte and Alexa have become a fun tag team and, because they've reeled back on Charlotte being a "main event only" talent, the kneejerk hate for her has faded away. Tiffany Stratton plateau'd as a character and worker, but she's 26 and it's not like she's fallen off a cliff - just maybe wasn't ready for the main event. Kairi Sane and Asuka are still around and very dependable. Sol Ruca in NXT has a sick finisher. Stephanie Vaquer, Lyra Valkyria, Blake Monroe, and Giulia are all works-in-progress, adjusting to the WWE, and its still too early to call any of them "flops," especially Vaquer, who has made the most strides of the three. Roxanne Perez and Raquel Rodriguez have both had moments when they've shown they're worthy of being on the main roster. Liv Morgan isn't a great wrestler, but, for a time there, she was probably among the top 2-3 most over women on the roster not named Rhea Ripley. Becky Lynch was never a super worker and her on-screen work pales in comparison to her Twitter game (where she's been doing a pretty funny Trump impersonation for the past year) but she's still a big name for the company and a valuable piece of the division. Chelsea Green was (is?) super over for a bit there.

So...no, the roster isn't poor. In terms of depth, it is much, much deeper than AEW or TNA. Star-power, rising prospects, raw talent, in-ring workers, charismatic characters, it's all there. 

But, see, the WWE are stupid so, based on just a cursory look at the card, they've taken this all-time great assemblage of talent and stars and booked them so poorly and with such a lack of understanding chemistry or character that you wouldn't be wrong to think the division sucked.

IYO SKY: arguably the best women's wrestler on the planet, isn't on either night of a 2-night show. Ditto for Kairi Sane, Asuka, and Stratton (deserved or not, they made a huge deal of her last year and this year she's a non-factor).

Liv Morgan: ready-made "comeback from injury" babyface storyline squandered so she could come back, rejoin a stable that was getting stale before her injury last June, and become a singer/dancer reminiscent of the best-forgotten Jillian Hall character. And then she beats Vaquer in under 8 minutes, a wrestler who really shines best when the WWE gets out of their own way and lets her wrestle. The feud will likely continue but who even cares?

Becky Lynch: Based on my limited viewing of a clip here or there popping up in my social media feeds, Lynch has been mired in a months-long feud with AJ Lee that feels like a side-plot of the years-long Punk/Rollins feud and never really took off on its own. It's actually kinda sad and embarrassing for both of them. I'm guessing they've tried to elevate it but, to a casual viewer, it gives "My Husband Hates Your Husband So I Hate You Too, Let's Fight!" rather than an actual rivalry over a real personal issue. The opposite of creative, the opposite of interesting, just putridly staid, paint-by-number stuff.

Charlotte and Alexa: Over with live crowds, have established good chemistry with interesting hints at a potential split over the past year that could've been the basis of an emotional story...all of it pushed aside so we can spotlight The Bellas and Paige, stars from a decade ago. Bayley wrote a thoughtful piece on social media about the importance of the Women's Tag Team Championships and, even without watching the shows in months, I can assure you nobody in the writer's room gives even 1/100th of the shit she does.

Chelsea Green: Injured, but also, instead of making her the host or giving her some sort of backstage segment or doing really anything to keep her momentum, let's just air parts of the Hulk Hogan documentary. 

Rhea Ripley: Put in the unenviable position of having to carry Jade Cargill tonight. They'll likely have a decent match (maybe even a very good match) because Ripley is a pro and they've probably spent the last 6 weeks rehearsing every spot so that Cargill doesn't look terrible. There's also a non-zero chance that it will be a car crash if Cargill gets lost or there's a hiccup that means she has to improvise a single sequence. Crazy as it sounds but if I hear the match is good-to-great, I probably won't watch it, but if it's an awful trainwreck, I'd be more likely to??

[hammerva]

Has there been a more opening match in WM history than Oba vs Brock?    After last night you can't have Brock beat Oba or it will feel like Night 2 is going to be just as shaky as Night 1.   Oba winning gives you optimism 

[sek69]

That match was exactly what it needed to be, Oba is a made guy after that.  I wasn't expecting Brock to do the retirement deal (at least not until he had a match with Gunther), but honestly that was probably the last good use of him. 

[El-P]

Made by a would-be rapist. The new stuff that came out in the Janel Grant case probably "helped" him getting the fuck out of the limelight. Fuck him and everyone who applauded him tonight.  

"Thank you Vince"

"Thank you Brock"

The WWE Universe.

🤮

[sek69]

Not dismissing any of that, but as a business move it was practically perfect. 

 

Also this ladder match has been as bonkers as expected with everyone in it. 

[hammerva]

They can do the bare minimum for rest of show and still blow night 1 out of the water 

[El-P]

This is legit hilarious (and pathetic)

🙃

And no, the product turning into complete add-slop is not gonna get better, ever. As they say, it's not a bug, it's a feature.

And next year this shit is happening you know where... I can't. 🤣

[El-P]

So some crypto-scam billionaire paid to be at the announcer's table for a match... With a headset on... And no mic...

I mean, you can't even shitpost anymore. They are shitposting themselves at this point.

[Coffey]

Well, the main event definitely delivered. Goddamn.

[strobogo]

If WM night 1 was .5 out of 5, night 2 was out of 5. TKO has managed to make even a stadium show WM feel like complete fluff. One match per show gets a video package and announcers do nothing to relay the angles and storylines. Literally 40% of the show (both nights) is ad breaks. Shit like Cena throws to the main event is next and then....legit a half hour of ads.

[strobogo]

WM night 2: Well, when the bar is so low that "can I watch this?" is a passing grade, it was the better night by a lot and still felt like SNME.

[Embrodak]

It is genuinely astonishing how TKO have completely pissed away the good will and popularity that had been built up around WWE a few years ago. This thread title became ironic for a few years, but now it feels unironically relevant again. TKO are worse than Vince ever was when it comes to putting on big events where the actual wrestling is a total afterthought compared to the pageantry and sponsorships. Vince at least liked certain wrestlers and knew when he needed to give stuff time to breathe. Ari Emanuel and Nick Khan couldn’t care less about any of it! Punk complained back in the day about nobody but Brock being allowed to make a little extra money and have personal sponsorships on their ring gear, but it seems pretty clear that the monkey’s paw has curled and that whatever worry Vince had around that was, if anything, understated.

I think the extent to which right-wing politics actually factor in to the daily operations of WWE has been blown out of proportion, but the whole affair has just become *structurally* right-wing. Like the UFC, it’s becoming a place for influencers and rich douchebags to flex their wealth and be seen.

[El-P]

Case in point, that completely absurd sequence of a billionaire crypto-scammer (who went to jail in the 2000 for fraud, because of course) literally *buying* a chair at the announcers table. During Jade vs Rhea no less, giving the whole thing very much a creepy vibe to boot.

It was only *two years ago* that the "New Era" (the first of many since then, the Netflix era, the ESPN era, the whatever the fuck era) began, which I called bullshit on since it was all based on "the bad guy being gone", when infact WWE is a systemically rotten company, as demonstrated by the comeback of Lesnar and these *chants*, not to mention Cody celebrating with Nick Khan and Bruce Prichard. Right on your screen. It was all there to see and understand. But back then "Papa Trip" (god that nickname was so embarrassing) was seen as a hero. He was the ultimate good guy, the savior of the company. Sports-entertainment was dead, pro-wrestling was back (wait, it sounds like a CM Punk "genuine" promo now, and actually just as empty and performative). 

Fast forward two years.... wait, try one year. Triple H was already getting blamed from what was then considered one of the worst Mania main event ever in Cody vs Cena. He was still parading on post-show, spewing his usual nonsense of "what we do, we're telling stories" and all that good shit. Six month later, he was booed out of the building when he got into the ring following Cena's disaster of a retirement show (and run, really). "Fuck Triple H" chants. (hell, even "AEW chants during the post show) He tried to put on a facade "Oh yeah, that's what we expected, that's what we were going for". Sure. Six months later. That would be two years since the "New Era" and the hero's welcome. Once again, one of the worst Mania main event, and *card*, ever. Sure, night 2 may have, by comparison, looked like it saved the facade. Except, it was still 85 or so minutes of pro-wrestling drowned into a neverending slop of adds and cheap-ass intros (sorry but I saw some clips, I don't wanna hear anything about the so-called "awesome production"). There is no pseudo press conference anymore. Actual journalist working for their streaming partner ESPN gets denied the access because he dared give their first shit show on the channel a poor rating (and also wrote about the Janel Grant case). "Fuck TKO" chants at the post-show, but Levesque is not there to hear them. He's not even showing his face on camera. And GAWD he LOVES showing his face on camera. Cody Rhodes and Roman Reigns are at the top of the promotion. The same two from when it hit the peak.

The Janel Grant case has not gone away yet. Details have gotten worse for everybody involved. Vince is implicitly or directly mentioned on TV and at the HOF, in positive fashion. "Thank you Vince" chants.

But it's ok. They have idiot proof money. Next year's Mania will be a straight whitewashing show for an authoritarian, slavering, murdering regime. Everything is fine.

(LIV Golf may be done. One day, MBS, who has been insulted by Donald Trump, who is tied at the hips with TKO and the McMahons family, may be moving on from that particular bullshit to spend his infinite amount of money in a different fashion)

Nah. everything is fine. 

(AI booker when ?)

[tcg91]

15 hours ago, DMJ said:

The women's roster is actually super stacked. IYO SKY is there. Rhea Ripley is there, still very over, still very capable of delivering good matches. Charlotte and Alexa have become a fun tag team and, because they've reeled back on Charlotte being a "main event only" talent, the kneejerk hate for her has faded away. Tiffany Stratton plateau'd as a character and worker, but she's 26 and it's not like she's fallen off a cliff - just maybe wasn't ready for the main event. Kairi Sane and Asuka are still around and very dependable. Sol Ruca in NXT has a sick finisher. Stephanie Vaquer, Lyra Valkyria, Blake Monroe, and Giulia are all works-in-progress, adjusting to the WWE, and its still too early to call any of them "flops," especially Vaquer, who has made the most strides of the three. Roxanne Perez and Raquel Rodriguez have both had moments when they've shown they're worthy of being on the main roster. Liv Morgan isn't a great wrestler, but, for a time there, she was probably among the top 2-3 most over women on the roster not named Rhea Ripley. Becky Lynch was never a super worker and her on-screen work pales in comparison to her Twitter game (where she's been doing a pretty funny Trump impersonation for the past year) but she's still a big name for the company and a valuable piece of the division. Chelsea Green was (is?) super over for a bit there.

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail! I appreciate that. 

My point was mostly around ringwork rather than being over, as unfortunately being attractive seems to be enough to be popular with the current fanbase. From the very little I have seen, people like Liv Morgan and Jade Cargill are very poor in the ring and were featured at 'Mania, along with the likes of the Bellas and AJ (who weren't even good in their prime). So, as people keep telling me the roster is actually good, I assume it's a creative issue then? Can't say I am surprised.

[tcg91]

13 hours ago, El-P said:

This is legit hilarious (and pathetic)

CommercialMania!

This is 'Turner buying WCW and not having a clue on how to run it' all over again, only 10 times worse.

[flyonthewall2983]

Welcome to the Ad-ittude era 

[Timbo Slice]

I love that Punk finally got to main event Mania, then actually got to truly main event Mania, and lost both times, cementing him as the guy used to prop up guys they feel bring more to the table. Some things never change. 
 

The thing that really bugs me is there are plenty of folks I’d love to see wrestling on the regular on this roster for various reasons, either having worked with them on the indies or really liking their pre-WWE work, but the machinations of the company make their presence basically anodyne. I can’t understate how difficult it is to take basically any talent on a broad scale like that and make them all look subpar. 
 

That they’re run by a bunch of shifty authoritarian-adjacent types who are stealing money both out from under the workers and the fans who support them, like most right-tinged companies, will only go so far because what they’re “good” at isn’t sustainable. They don’t have too much money to fail; when the midterms hit and they are blown out to the point of impotence, Saudi WM is gonna be such a wet fart (with Vince getting his HOF nod more than likely in the midst of the trial) that the hypocrisy might finally be too much. And good riddance if that’s the case. 

[El-P]

49 minutes ago, Timbo Slice said:

I love that Punk finally got to main event Mania, then actually got to truly main event Mania, and lost both times, cementing him as the guy used to prop up guys they feel bring more to the table. Some things never change. 

Not only that, but the fact both his Mania main events were sponsored by Riyadh Season. This will never ever not be funny.

[JRH]

The number of commercials is why I watch highlights online. Yeah, you only get the last 3-5 minutes usually but at least you still get an idea of what the match is and you do get the finish. Of course, now my main excitement in WWE is more about what they upload on their vault channel anyway.

[donsem43]

16 hours ago, Embrodak said:

I think the extent to which right-wing politics actually factor in to the daily operations of WWE has been blown out of proportion, but the whole affair has just become *structurally* right-wing.

The company has always been right-wing. On the SNME right before the '88 presidential election, Demolition cut a pro Republican promo. Survivor Series '95 had Sunny sitting on the lap of a Bill Clinton impersonator. They had Gennifer Flowers at Wrestlemania in traditionally Democrat supporting Boston. The only reason WWE appeared to be creeping towards the center with more socially conscience stuff was to try to appeal to a younger audience.

16 hours ago, El-P said:

Case in point, that completely absurd sequence of a billionaire crypto-scammer (who went to jail in the 2000 for fraud, because of course) literally *buying* a chair at the announcers table. During Jade vs Rhea no less, giving the whole thing very much a creepy vibe to boot.

Apparently, this guy use to have connections to Syracuse University which is the college that a lot of people in U.S. sports media went to. Seem to be a "guy who knows a guy" type.

[JRH]

1 hour ago, donsem43 said:

The company has always been right-wing. On the SNME right before the '88 presidential election, Demolition cut a pro Republican promo. Survivor Series '95 had Sunny sitting on the lap of a Bill Clinton impersonator. They had Gennifer Flowers at Wrestlemania in traditionally Democrat supporting Boston. The only reason WWE appeared to be creeping towards the center with more socially conscience stuff was to try to appeal to a younger audience.

 

They were a little more subtle with it during the Hulkamania through Attitude eras though. Heck, 1988 gave us an evil cop (ok, prison guard, but the police imagery was still there) and an evil preacher, something they would probably never do nowadays, not to mention how moral guardians criticized the attitude era. I think this discussion may be better suited to its own thread though.