Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[Jmare007]

6 hours ago, El-P said:

1000% this. I know he has the good rep because he's probably a "cool" guy IRL, but as a performer, holy shit he was bad. His shit looked bad, like horrific level bad, he went toe to toe with Kurt Angle doing mat wrestling, he did not show fear of the Undertaker in a HITC match, he took completely ridiculous bumps to satisfy his ego while not actually having to work a schedule as a pro-wrester, thus uping the ante for other people to get reactions while taking zero responsibility on the long term because as much as he fantasized it, he wasn't one of the boy, he was the boy from the boss, who did not need to work a day in his life.

Stephy has been unbearable for ever both as the Authority and IRL corporate asshole, but as a performer she has had many shining moments as a valet or even an in-ring performer, not because she ever was a good wrestler but because she was a good character (for instance in the Rousey match, of course) and actually got her comeuppance to get her opposition over.

I remember that was the biggest criticism of her Authority run. She would show up, shit on X wrestler and it would never translate to anything meaningful, just her looking superior with no redeeming angle to justify it. The Rousey tag match, which was awesome, but it was in 2018, five years after The Authority gimmick began and almost 2 full years after it stopped being a thing and stopped showing up on TV altogether.

People loved Shane because he's kind of the "outsider" McMahon so they just assume he can't be worst than the rest because he was out for so long and even before leaving, he wasn't all in the video taking up screen time and never getting his ass beat. This comeback run quickly made people realize he's just as bad as the people grew tired off 

 

[El-P]

Just now, Jmare007 said:

I remember that was the biggest criticism of her Authority run. She would show up, shit on X wrestler and it would never translate to anything meaningful, just her looking superior with no redeeming angle to justify it. The Rousey tag match, which was awesome, but it was in 2018, five years after The Authority gimmick began and almost 2 full years after it stopped being a thing and stopped showing up on TV altogether.

Yeah, I don't mean the usual week to week Authority bullshit, which was godawful and lasted years.

5 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

This comeback run quickly made people realize he's just another McMahon

The McMahons are extremely overrated performers anyway, even Vince was only great for a short time during the Attitude Era (at a point where he was bouncing off Austin, Foley and Rock aka three of the greatest performers in the history of the company) and in short bursts after that point. When he reached the point of having competitive matches against Hulk Hogan, it was completely ridiculous (him winning the Rumble in 99 was the point that really killed the WWF fan in me).

[MoS]

McMemphis was great too. Vince was also, at the age of 70, able to get Roman universally cheered after his entire post-WM knee-cutting run in 2015, and get Roman on track to being the top beloved babyface ace until he feuded with..you know. And while I get the point about him being competitive against Hogan, I love that match as an amazing spectacle. I thought him gaining the upper hand on Hogan was okay cuz it was an accident in the uncontrolled chaos unfolding. His facial expression before and after he jumped off a ladder on Hogan was incredible. Vince the character should have been blown off mid-1999 after Austin won some stipulation match - I think against Taker - and basically not have come back at all for at least a couple of years. He couldn't resist though I guess. Wrestlemania in 2000 was so underwhelming for the hottest year in company history, and one reason was the naturally hot HHH v. Rock main event being diluted just because they wanted "A McMahon In Every Corner!!!"

[El-P]

23 minutes ago, MoS said:

 Vince the character should have been blown off mid-1999 after Austin won some stipulation match - I think against Taker - and basically not have come back at all for at least a couple of years. 

That would have avoided the handshake of doom at the very least, which sealed the deal for WWE as far as their hottest run was concerned.

[Strummer]

The more time goes by I think the 2013-2016 Authority run did so much long term damage to the product. I can remember it being a constant debate here with some saying it was no big deal but I really think that angle was incredibly damaging 

also I think Roman feuding with the League of Nations post Vince did damage as well. Everyone saw that group as cannon fodder that were there to simply make Roman look good

[Strummer]

And I kinda agree with El P that the McMahons are overrated to a degree. Maybe it's because I've never been so down on the product and I'm not looking at it clearly but I find most of their stuff generic heel tropes. They all had their moments (even Linda in 2001) but most of it does not hold up imo

[sek69]

I mean, heel Vince was the best villain wrestling has ever seen. Both in terms of how he played his role and how he got  others over. In the end he got nWo-itis and shit went on too long past the point it felt like they did everything they could do storyline wise, but at that time Rock was starting to do outside projects and Austin's neck was being held together with scotch tape so I get why they were afraid to close the book on Evil Vince. 

[KawadaSmile]

1 hour ago, Strummer said:

also I think Roman feuding with the League of Nations post Vince did damage as well. Everyone saw that group as cannon fodder that were there to simply make Roman look good

Pretty sure those two things happened at the same time.

Roman was feuding with Sheamus, and by extention the LoN, and the heels having friends cost him a ladder match at TLC. THEN he had that fantastic RAW match for the title complete with VKM fuckery.

That all led to Hunter making a fool out of Reigns during the build to their WM match.

[sek69]

Don't forget the "make Roman look good" line from the famous Punk interview that pretty much conformed what everyone was suspecting re: forcing Roman down people's throats.

[C.S.]

Worst McMahon = Linda

As an on-air performer, completely useless

As a human being, she was a cabinet member for the worst and most corrupt U.S. President in history and only stepped down to raise obscene amounts of money for him in a re-election campaign SuperPAC. 

[Steenalized]

3 hours ago, Strummer said:

The more time goes by I think the 2013-2016 Authority run did so much long term damage to the product. I can remember it being a constant debate here with some saying it was no big deal but I really think that angle was incredibly damaging

They were insufferable. Them opening every Raw for 20 minute promos. That time HHH learned the word "abeyance". HHH getting put back into main events or at least the main angles. Then trying to use NXT to work the smart crowd for his rep. Good riddance if Nick Khan's forced him out the door

[strobogo]

I wonder what the longest promo segment that actually kept the audience's attention and wasn't miserable by the end. I'm going to have to assume it involves Rock.

[MoS]

Probably the famous This is Your Life segments, yeah. Or The heel Hollywood Rock concerts. He also had a promo on the first WWE draft ever after he got drafted to Smackdown where he got the crowd to chant like ten different things at Vince. Yeah the more I think of it, Rock was probably the king of 20 minute promos, and given everything we know about HHH's feelings about Rock - and Rock is no longer shy about publicly discussing old wrestling politics, although he avoids naming names - I absolutely think one reason HHH has done so many interminably long promos in his career is cuz he wants to show he can do them better than Rock and his catchphrases. Remember how hard he tried to make "And I AM. THAT... DAAAMN...... GOOOOOODDDDD!!!!" a thing.

[Kadaveri]

The longest I can think of is the CM Punk Contract Signing segment on the go home to Money In The Bank 2011. It's a bit longer than Rock This Is Your Life.

[sek69]

The fact that WWE still does 20 minute promos to this day (albeit usually with multiple people instead of one) shows how WWE brain works. Instead of seeing it as something that only worked because the Rock is the most charismatic person who ever stepped foot in a ring they see it as an integral part of a successful wrestling show that you have to master to become a top level star.  Just like they learned the best way to create a babyface star is to beat them constantly instead of learning it only worked because Bryan Danielson is a wizard. 

I also agree 100% HHH has done so many of them as a way of proving he's better than Rock at them. No doubt he thinks he *is* better at them too.  Dave mentioned the other day that Vince is hoping to land Rock for Survivor Series if the availability works out, and if that happens I would sell a kidney to be able to be able to witness the discussion he would have with post-NXT overhaul Hunter. 

[KawadaSmile]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:04 PM, sek69 said:

Don't forget the "make Roman look good" line from the famous Punk interview that pretty much conformed what everyone was suspecting re: forcing Roman down people's throats.

I wish they did do it as hard as people thought they were doing it! Being made to look like a fool by Sheamus after winning his first world title was seriously not strong booking. Nor was being punked by Triple H.

Then again Triple H made nearly every single member of the Shield look like a fool. Fuck that guy hope his heart is doing alright but fuck him.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

1 hour ago, KawadaSmile said:

I wish they did do it as hard as people thought they were doing it! Being made to look like a fool by Sheamus after winning his first world title was seriously not strong booking. Nor was being punked by Triple H.

Then again Triple H made nearly every single member of the Shield look like a fool. Fuck that guy hope his heart is doing alright but fuck him.

I felt the same way.  For someone who was being “pushed down our throats,” he… wasn’t.

[El-P]

The fact his booking wasn't good, because creative in WWE has been shit forever, doesn't change the fact Roman Reigns was pushed down the throats of the audience, and was rejected for it. That's two different things, and certainly the bad booking probably didn't help his case (we talked about how they missed the boat at WM31 when they had a chance to maybe win over the crowd, but this also came from a situation where he had not been accepted and they freaked out because of it). But he was absolutely pushed down the throat of the audience, he was the chosen one to replace John Cena from day one.

After the 31 miss, he main evented WM 32 against Triple H and won. And did not get accepted. Main evented WrestleMania 33 against Taker and won. And did not get accepted. Main evented WM 34 against Lesnar : people infamously *left* during the match. That's a pretty bad streak of getting pushed down the throat of people and being absolutely rejected.

It's too easy to put the blame on the booking, no matter how poor it may have been creatively in term of details and angles : in term of strict constant rocket push to the top, no one got the Roman Reigns treatment in forever.

And after more or less 6 years of being the chosen one, he's being fed every babyface to have one or two big matches a year against part-timers, one of which happening in Saudi Arabia because that's where the money is. I don't think the Roman Reigns years will be looked at very favorably in the future, no matter how good a pro-wrestler the guy is.

[KawadaSmile]

The infamous case of the wrestler pushed down people's throats yet never having a meaningful run, instead only having to settle for shoddy booking.

Seth Rollins held the WWE Belt for like 8 months, was able to beat John Cena for the US Title, becoming double champ. He was pushed as much, if not more, than Roman during that period. In fact, he went over Roman constantly during that period, specially after he returned from injury. Roman even got beat by Ambrose during the Triple Threat at Battleground, man. 

Like, 2016 even had Finn Balor getting the rocket strapped to his arse, beating Roman clean as a whistle (after he got humiliated by Steph, of course), and he then proceeded to beat Rollins for the then cursed Universal Title. That's a rocket push to the top no matter how we see it.

[El-P]

Being pushed for a few months has nothing to do with being the chosen one who will replace your former Ace. That's what Reigns was (since day 1), is and will be until they decide to switch gears toward the next one. Now, the fact his booking was not very good is, like I said, another matter (it's not like Seth booking was any good either, his character has pretty much always sucked, Bray Wyatt's booking also sucked during the same period, well, basically WWE's booking has sucked forever now in the grand scheme of things, which is why they are where they are today). It surely did not help. But denying that Reigns was not what the audience wanted when they started to push him and then push him more and more for years is just rewriting history.

[NintendoLogic]

Roman has main evented Wrestlemania five out of the past seven years. And he would have main evented a sixth had he not pulled out for health reasons. Come on now.

[KawadaSmile]

12 minutes ago, El-P said:

Being pushed for a few months has nothing to do with being the chosen one who will replace your former Ace. That's what Reigns was (since day 1), is and will be until they decide to switch gears toward the next one. Now, the fact his booking was not very good is, like I said, another matter (it's not like Seth booking was any good either, his character has pretty much always sucked, Bray Wyatt's booking also sucked during the same period, well, basically WWE's booking has sucked forever now in the grand scheme of things, which is why they are where they are today). It surely did not help. But denying that Reigns was not what the audience wanted when they started to push him and then push him more and more for years is just rewriting history.

I know that Balor isn't the ace, but he got an immediate, very, very strong push - in fact, a push that was more immediate than Roman ever got, despite his being longer - which is something you claimed just Roman had. We'll never know how strong that would have been if he didn't get injured, but considering he was put over strong in NXT and immediatly got the title win, I'd say the odds were pretty good, specially The Big Dog was in The Dog House due to ADDERALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL at that time.

The thing is that even when he moved down the card, people insisted he was being fed down our throats. They, either the Fed or some big brains on the internet, have poisoned the well. It took serious health issues for him to find peace (and even then we had fools questioning the legitimacy or seriousness of his disease) among the fanbase.

 

Just now, NintendoLogic said:

Roman has main evented Wrestlemania five out of the past seven years. And he would have main evented a sixth had he not pulled out for health reasons. Come on now.

as he fucking should! gimme more big dog hours big dog forever

[El-P]

7 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

It took serious health issues for him to find peace (and even then we had fools questioning the legitimacy or seriousness of his disease) among the fanbase.

Which says *a whole lot*. If he doesn't get ill, I bet you anything he still isn't accepted to this day, although I guess finally the heel turn was the right choice.

 

[MoS]

Not getting a big title run and yet always being in main events wrestling for the world title was part of the reason he felt so pushed down the throat. Bad booking enhances the feeling of being pushed down the throat, it is not a substitute. He would always be in the main event, nothing the WWE did with anyone else would ever matter no matter how hard their initial push was because come WrestleMania season, you knew Roman was going to be in the main event. Yet, it would feel unearned even in kayfabe cuz he was not booked to win like the guy who should be in the main event every year. It was the worst possible combination of overpushing yet undercutting someone, and if they had just delayed Bryan's return by a month and then just pulled the trigger at WrestleMania and let him have a long reign, none of this would have happened. If he had been John Cena, he could have overcome bad booking, but there is only one John Cena. And even Cena got lucky cuz he was supposed to lose the title to HHH at WM 23, but Hunter got injured so they finally went all in on Cena that year, and that really was the making of him. 

[El-P]

7 minutes ago, MoS said:

Not getting a big title run and yet always being in main events wrestling for the world title was part of the reason he felt so pushed down the throat. Bad booking enhances the feeling of being pushed down the throat, it is not a substitute. He would always be in the main event, nothing the WWE did with anyone else would ever matter no matter how hard their initial push was because come WrestleMania season, you knew Roman was going to be in the main event. Yet, it would feel unearned even in kayfabe cuz he was not booked to win like the guy who should be in the main event every year. It was the worst possible combination of overpushing yet undercutting someone

I totally agree with this. At some point it reached the egg/chicken case, but really there's no doubt he was rejected at first (I mean, at first when the audience wanted Daniel Bryan and no one else, of course The Shield was over AF). Then after the WM31 miss, Roman Reigns still had to be the N°1 guy and win at Mania and beat every legend, but since he had been rejected, they had to push him while not saying it too loud, but still had to because just because, which led to the hilarious fail with The Rock getting booed (ponder that for a few seconds) and such.