#SpeakingOut: Industry-wide sexual misconduct (assault/harrassment/grooming/etc) accusations and their repercussions

[kas]

Looks like they will be getting the police involved. 

As far as the expose wrestling list twitter account it looks like they're trying to distance themselves from it. They keep deleting and re-making accounts.

 

[Dav'oh]

13 hours ago, Migs said:

The discussion on Twitter is that sending him (Jimmy Havoc) to rehab...

I saw, over many stays over many years, lots of people in rehab who were there for the wrong reasons. People "sending" other people to rehab is an exercise in time-wasting, whether it's mum and dad, your missus or your employer (all of whom are flattering/deluding themselves if they think they can do or say anything to get someone clean.)

Havoc also reminds me of another group of "wrong reasons" people - those that were only in rehab so they could tell the magistrate they'd been to rehab, hoping for a reduced sentence. (One rehab I went to was like the remand yard.)

And finally, maybe, maybe, 1% of people who go to rehab for substance abuse are "one-and-dones", for want of a better term, which I don't think AEW understands. You don't just sit around for 28 days and then walk out cured; it's generally a very long process which, for some people, continues for their whole lives. Detox and rehab aren't cures.

(And now I'm thinking "in vino veritas" so Havoc probably needs to work on bigger behavioural issues than just substance abuse...)

[World's Worst Man]

6 hours ago, El-P said:

It sucks that it has to happen, but it's great that it's happening.

Also, remember Ashley Massaro. Back then, nothing budged. No one said jackshit. Hopefully this case resurfaces too, because there's something really ugly about it.

As far as "losing heroes", no pro-wrestler is a hero to me. I don't care. We all know and for years we all pretended it was allright. How many "Flair showed his dick" stories do we have to listen until we realize that it is actually not *that* funny ? How many "but he throws a great punches" do we have to hear again ? Someone should compile some extracts of those old RF Video shoot interviews about ribbing and ring rats, how awful is this, really ? There's a totally toxic culture that we basically have accepted because hell, everything can't be perfect.

But most of all, I hope this doesn't stop in front of the gates of the big dogs. We all know who are we talking about...

The Benoit situation should have been the nail-in-the-coffin of hero worship within the pro-wrestling (and really every entertainment) industry. It's just such an unhealthy mindset, even if the targets of affection are actually decent human beings. I understand that people can't just flip a switch and decide to change their attitudes and emotions but to me it really is much better to enjoy art and entertainment for its own sake and to remain indifferent towards the performers other than how entertaining or skilled they are.

[Rah]

Speaking of 'heroes'/favourites, Colt Cabana (American import) was outed as a weirdo. Hade Vansen is a rapist. Hopefully this is a start of getting some bigger names.

 

 

[C.S.]

I went on Twitter to unfollow Velveteen Dream and saw that he erased all of his tweets and now has blank white images for his pics. 

[sek69]

I can only hope the fallout to all this will be better oversight of wrestling schools (it's long past time for that anyway even without any of the sexual assault issues) since so many of these stories seem to involve taking advantage of trainees/people trying to break in to the business.  It wouldn't completely fix the issue, but it would be a hell of a start.

Also I hope WWE reads the room here, as it seems like they are going to take the same approach with this as they do with Wellness Violations: toss anyone low on the totem pole and find some way to exclude anyone they perceive as a name. I get it, I really enjoy Matt Riddle matches and it sucks his name is brought up in this, but it sucks more for the women he allegedly forced himself on. If these claims have any merit he has to go to. WWE going to the mat (pun not intended) to defend guys while their lawyers smear the accusers is not going to be a good look.

Matthew Randazzo also brought up a good point: when are the vocally progressive "woke" (I hate that term but whatever) members of the WWE locker room going to  put their money where their mouths are and stop working for a company that supports people and causes politically they are diametrically opposed to, but also run by a person who more likely than not has done everything all the people have been accused of doing all week by himself at one point. Guys like Bryan, the New Day, Punk (he works for FS1 technically but come on) all talk the talk and walk the walk when it comes to saying the right things and raising money for causes, but at the end of the day their checks are signed by a openly sexist and racist old man, but someone who's been accused of at least one rape and basically got out of being charged over exposing himself because of who he was.

[SirEdger]

3 hours ago, Rah said:

Speaking of 'heroes'/favourites, Colt Cabana (American import) was outed as a weirdo. Hade Vansen is a rapist. Hopefully this is a start of getting some bigger names.

 

 

Did I read the whole part about Colt Cabana wrong or did it seem to me that he was given that girl's phone number and that's it?

[C.S.]

14 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Matthew Randazzo also brought up a good point: when are the vocally progressive "woke" (I hate that term but whatever) members of the WWE locker room going to  put their money where their mouths are and stop working for a company that supports people and causes politically they are diametrically opposed to, but also run by a person who more likely than not has done everything all the people have been accused of doing all week by himself at one point. Guys like Bryan, the New Day, Punk (he works for FS1 technically but come on) all talk the talk and walk the walk when it comes to saying the right things and raising money for causes, but at the end of the day their checks are signed by a openly sexist and racist old man, but someone who's been accused of at least one rape and basically got out of being charged over exposing himself because of who he was.

I don't think this is a good point though. I think it's an extraordinarily lazy one by an author so transparently trying to score "woke" points that I find it impossible to take him seriously.

If Bryan, New Day, etc. don't work for WWE, where would they work?

AEW, where Shad Khan pumped millions into the Trump campaign and they openly wish an accused rapist "all the best."

ROH, owned by the insidious and odious Republican propaganda machine Sinclair Broadcasting.

Impact, where people at the top of the food chain are alleged to be part of the problem, never mind some of the top wrestlers.

New Japan, which is probably still tied to the Yakuza and God knows what else that we don't know about because they operate in another country.

Etc., etc., etc.

It's really easy for someone to say "don't work for WWE" or "don't work in the wrestling industry," but that's their dream and in many cases their only real talent.

The better and less lazy approach is for the good guys to stay in wrestling and help clean it up from the inside, which is hopefully what this movement will do. I'm skeptical - as we all should be - that any real change will ever happen, but this is at least a promising start. 

[sek69]

4 minutes ago, C.S. said:

EW, where Shad Khan pumped millions into the Trump campaign and they openly wish an accused rapist "all the best."

People keep harping on this, and yes he did support Trump at one point he stated after the whole Muslim Ban fiasco he would no longer support him.  As far as I know he hasn't done so since. Yes it was a case of ignoring the obvious until something finally affected him personally but it's still more than most people in position would do. 

The Havoc thing was poorly handled, no argument there. I can see how they wouldn't want to be seen as shitting on someone going to rehab to hopefully turn their life around,  but offering best wishes to an accused rapist was not a great way to do that. 

[C.S.]

3 minutes ago, sek69 said:

People keep harping on this, and yes he did support Trump at one point he stated after the whole Muslim Ban fiasco he would no longer support him.  As far as I know he hasn't done so since. Yes it was a case of ignoring the obvious until something finally affected him personally but it's still more than most people in position would do. 

The Havoc thing was poorly handled, no argument there. I can see how they wouldn't want to be seen as shitting on someone going to rehab to hopefully turn their life around,  but offering best wishes to an accused rapist was not a great way to do that. 

I hope I don't come across as anti-AEW, because I'm not - I'm rooting for them to succeed - I just think a lot of their so-called "progressive" bona fides ended up being a bunch of carny BS, which is fair enough and to be expected, but still disappointing, ya know?

My larger point was that the wrestling industry in general is tainted, not just WWE, so Randazzo's lazy "woke" sermonizing doesn't impress me one bit.

[FMKK]

3 hours ago, Rah said:

Speaking of 'heroes'/favourites, Colt Cabana (American import) was outed as a weirdo. Hade Vansen is a rapist. Hopefully this is a start of getting some bigger names.

 

 

Read it again. I think it's super unfair to headline Colt in this.

[Superstar Sleeze]

C.S. that's a good point I much rather Titus still be employed by WWE and be an advocate of change within the industry and lead by example. Shit on WWE all you want but their platform is huge and has helped amplify Titus' voice. I always find these black and white attacks on large corporations humorous. WWE does use its platform for good. Does it redeem the bad shit, no, but let's not pretend their "Be A Star", "Make A Wish", literacy programs, Special Olympics connection, Connor's Cure don't exist either. You can be employed by WWE and touch individuals' lives and use your work to better society even if Vince is a shitty person. 

I do feel compelled to speak out here not because I have been abused but because people I truly love more than myself have been. I see the toll it wreaks on a human. It is a Cross they have to bear for the rest of their life. There's no place for it anywhere in society. I am rooting for the truth to come out. I am rooting for a safer wrestling community that includes locker rooms, training facilities and on the road travel etc... I have learned in life that I often immediately jump to problem-solving and I don't want to do that here. Anyone who immediately denies a woman her claim is scum in my book. Full stop. The "guilty until proven innocent" crowd (yes I did see tweet with exact phrase) is not much better, but I understand their point of view. It is a reaction to women being marginalized and silence. The fact that women have been intimidated into not speaking is 100% bullshit, but the overreaction is only marginally better than the status quo. That's what I mean by I am rooting for the truth.

Those that are guilty I hope they are punished, seek help and find redemption. C.S. I disagree with your notion that AEW was being immature. I think that was very big. Jimmy Havoc's life is not over. It is just beginning. I watched my father clean up from alcohol & drug abuse as a child literally attending AA meetings with him as early as I can remember 5-6 years old.  What these people did is heinous but I believe in mercy & redemption for all. I hope they can heal and positively contribute to society at some point. For those that are innocent, I hope they can rebuild. 

More important than the guilty or innocent men, I pray for the abused women and that they learn they are worth more than just being sexual objects that their voices & opinions matter. They are humans who are intrinsically worthy of respect. I know I am just one fan and I am kinda shy in person but I try to be very positive when I can be.  I read somewhere that it takes four positive comments to negate one negative comment. I try when I can to be as positive as possible without lying (if I didnt like a wrestling match, I didnt like it), but if I did I try to make sure I thank the wrestlers and let them know  specifically what I liked. Tying this back to women and how they value themselves is trying to focus on the in-ring work that they do and making that public and just let them know they are more than a hot body, but they deliver in the ring and that their wrestling makes my life better. It guts me that so many women have to deal with this all over the world. I just hope they all know they are worth more than just being sexual objects. It is all very sad, but I try to hope for a better tomorrow and learn how to be a better advocate for women in all walks of life. 

[World's Worst Man]

AEW's phrasing in the Jimmy Havoc announcement may not have been ideal, but I really, really don't think it's some inexcusable, grossly unacceptable action like say, how the Catholic Church has handled for their own scandal. I wouldn't think it would make working for AEW some ethical dilemma.

Asking people to make real sacrifices for their beliefs is probably a non-starter, but it certainly would show you who truly believes in what they say.

[sek69]

2 minutes ago, World's Worst Man said:

AEW's phrasing in the Jimmy Havoc announcement may not have been ideal, but I really, really don't think it's some inexcusable, grossly unacceptable action like say, how the Catholic Church has handled for their own scandal. I wouldn't think it would make working for AEW some ethical dilemma.

 

That reminds me, the world really owes Sinead O' Connor a huge fucking apology for vilifying her for telling us about that shit like 10 years before it all came out. 

[FMKK]

7 minutes ago, sek69 said:

That reminds me, the world really owes Sinead O' Connor a huge fucking apology for vilifying her for telling us about that shit like 10 years before it all came out. 

She really got fucked up partially from the backlash of that. And society in Ireland has changed so much now that she could parade through Dublin saying the same stuff nowadays and people wouldn't even blink.

[sek69]

The scale is different of course, but it shows what can happen when a woman speaks out against institutional sexual abuse and folks aren't ready to hear it.   

[El-P]

32 minutes ago, FMKK said:

Read it again. I think it's super unfair to headline Colt in this.

Yeah, it's totally ridiculous.

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

Matthew Randazzo also brought up a good point: when are the vocally progressive "woke" (I hate that term but whatever) members of the WWE locker room going to  put their money where their mouths are and stop working for a company that supports people and causes politically they are diametrically opposed to, but also run by a person who more likely than not has done everything all the people have been accused of doing all week by himself at one point. 

Not only that, but at some point, you gotta admit that although things may not be ideal in other pro-wrestling companies, Vince McMahon has been accused of rape before, has most probably covered for the murder of a woman, employed Jerry Lawler for years because "he has great punchlines" despite you know what, and much more. And if we're only gonna talk about current matters at hands and not even mention his ties with sexist, homophobic, racist Trump, he's getting a whole lot of money to promote MBS's Saudi Arabia, which is a criminal regime who had a journalist chopped off in pieces, who's leading a genocidal war in Yemen and legally torture and kills homosexuals. At some point, sorry but a bunch of charity (which is disgusting PR no matter whatever "good" they do) isn't gonna cut it. 

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

New Japan, which is probably still tied to the Yakuza and God knows what else that we don't know about because they operate in another country.

Hum... In the past no doubt but in today's world, I would be more doubtful. NOAH lost its TV because they were outed has having ties with yakuzas years ago and never recovered from that.

Yeah, pro-wrestling is a less than ideal workplace (hell, corporate america is a scummy world.... capitalism makes the world a scummy world everywhere) but at some point, yeah it's ok to have big ideas but really when you make BIG money from such an awful company, you should either shut the fuck up or leave, really.

[Rah]

I think it's important for these 'woke' superstars to remain in WWE. 

Not only for the reasons outlined above, but because their position gives power to their words. There's a repeating pattern in the beliefs of these survivors - that this is paying your dues, boys being boys and just how things are. With people like Pete Dunne vocally saying it's not OK, it helps people in vulnerable positions to understand that it's not OK. 

 

29 minutes ago, SirEdger said:

Did I read the whole part about Colt Cabana wrong or did it seem to me that he was given that girl's phone number and that's it?

3 minutes ago, FMKK said:

Read it again. I think it's super unfair to headline Colt in this.

I don't know, it reads a bit deeper than that to me. From what I gathered Cabana took an interest in the survivor's physical appearance (before or directly surrounding her 16th birthday). Creepy but legal(?). Her number was passed on and she was informed to do whatever he wanted sexually. Whether that's the promoter pimping her out to keep Colt happy or he had asked directly for her, I don't know. Taking a liking to someone and the promoter delivering her to you on a silver, sexual platter surely sends off alarm bells that this is prostituting talent, doesn't it? He seemed equally happy with the 'replacement'.

In the context of the post, of course there is a mismatch in 'severity' but, at the very least, this is Colt turning a blind eye to something terrible.

[World's Worst Man]

Quote

The scale is different of course, but it shows what can happen when a woman speaks out against institutional sexual abuse and folks aren't ready to hear it.   

The two situations are quite similar in that it's the power dynamic that makes the crime possible, and the lack of accountability/justice that allows it to continue. You can also throw in the general jock culture, which also applies to other pro-sports (and lo and behold they too have these same issues!). The culture can be dealt with somewhat - we've probably already seen the bullying situation improve in recent years, but the power dynamic is something that will always be a problem. It's the accountability and justice that needs some serious work. Of course, the solution isn't this fucking terrible "guilty until proven innocent" mindset either, but there are many ways in which these crimes could be better dealt with from both sides of the equation.

[sek69]

29 minutes ago, El-P said:

Hum... In the past no doubt but in today's world, I would be more doubtful. NOAH lost its TV because they were outed has having ties with yakuzas years ago and never recovered from that.

 

It's a weird Japanese cultural thing where having Yauzka ties is considered the cost of doing business, but if you get too blatant about it or get exposed, it's a great embarrassment to the company and no one will want to do business with you. 

Bushiroad wanted to be as clean as possible when they took over, so while it's not as obvious as back in the 90s when the whole front row was mobbed up looking dudes, I'd wager the actual involvement is much lower than ever before (but probably not completely zero since I'm sure they still have connections with the buildings/concession companies/truck companies etc). 

[El-P]

9 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I'd wager the actual involvement is much lower than ever before (but probably not completely zero since I'm sure they still have connections with the buildings/concession companies/truck companies etc). 

Yeah, that's what I'd think too.

BTW, Lagana was a big name but on the NWA front, Thom Latimer has also been mentioned (for violent behaviour and psychological abuse), with callbacks to the time he was married with Charlotte Flair. FTR He's currently dating Kamille. 

 

[sek69]

Was he married to Charlotte when she had her blowup with Ric that the cops got involved with or was that the other ex?

[NintendoLogic]

5 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Was he married to Charlotte when she had her blowup with Ric that the cops got involved with or was that the other ex?

That was Charlotte's first husband (boyfriend at the time), who she accused of domestic abuse in her book. He sued them for defamation and said that there was dashcam footage of her using racist language toward police officers. The lawsuit was settled out of court.

[C.S.]

The sad thing about Bram is that I'm guessing it's an open secret with him. There has to be a reason he keeps falling downward, right?

From WWE developmental, to TNA, to the NWA.

Of course, being completely generic and unmemorable probably doesn't help either. 

[sek69]

I just remember it becoming a meme that TNA would announce they re signed BRAM every 6 months ago to make it sound like they weren't a sinking ship everyone was trying to flee from in the last gasps of the Dixie Era.