The WON HOF 2007 thread

[jdw]

Just as a side note, one of the hilarious things about Meltzer's Ventura fetish is his absolute ignorance of politics. Minnesota is completely off the map politically in a lot of ways, which you can probably trace back to the descent of many of its people from northern Europe. It's not just that socialists can get respectful hearings or that Paul Wellstone could get elected there, it's that the whole state has a really deeply rooted relation to a kind of leftism that's akin in some ways to European Green politics and a kind of agrarian conservatism that has some relation to anarchism. These people just do not like our system of governance. Of course they'd elect Jesse Ventura! They elected him because he's a fucking clown and was thus a good way for them to show their contempt for politics. This a state where Al Franken is probably going to win a Senate race next year. I'm not sure "being a fucking clown" is the kind of mainstream achievement wrestling fans sometimes seem to think it is.

Okay... this is fucking great... and that's coming from someone who is an Al Franken fan.

 

Benoit >>>>> Jesse

 

when it comes to Mainstream.

 

Jesse and Minnesota were national jokes. The only people who didn't get that are wrestling fans who want their fandom legitimized, and elements of the media who get off on jokes like Jesse.

 

 

John

[jdw]

Bruce Mitchell is voting for The Masked Assassins, Ivan Koloff, Konnan, The Midnight Express, Rey Mysterio, The Rock, The Steiner Brothers, Jim Crockett Jr. and Jesse Ventura this year.

Er...

 

Bruce's explanations for his decisions regarding the MX, RnRs and Steiners:

 

* Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane): The Midnight Express are the best tag team of the last 24 years. They were better in the ring at their peak than any team that followed all these years later. They were the top of huge drawing programs with Bill Watts and the Junkyard Dog in Mid-South and The Rock & Roll express in Jim Crockett Promotions. Also, Jim Cornette shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame alone.

 

Rock & Roll Express: Their years as a top act weren't that many and they worked a very patterned style. No.

 

* Steiner Brothers: There were a great strong-style team internationally for many years. Yeah, they get in, because their in-ring work pulls up any problem in the other two criteria.

Umm...

 

John, resisting the temptation to get the bong picture...

[tomk]

I was trying to think of if anyone had a HOF-level run from 1988-2001 under Turner, or more specifically if anyone wouldn't be in the HOF without the strength of their WCW run.

I think your international guys need a strong US run to get voted in.

 

When doing the voting does anyone know wether Vader was classed with needing 60% of US votes or 60% of Japanese votes?

 

If Steve Williams had the run on top of WCW instead of Vader...my bet is Williams would be a shoo in.

 

I liked him a bunch but don't think Ultimo's run in WCW really meant a ton....but I can't see him getting voted in without it.

[tomk]

We've seen it with the "He's Small And Opened The Door For Small Wrestlers" influence/impact be given to Shawn when it was his time to get pimped. We've seen it given to Benoit. And of course Rey.

I think part of Rey's candidacy has to be built on him not opening the door.

 

He's a 5-4 guy who is the biggest ratings draw that the WWE has and it forced their hand.

 

They don't want to be pushing anyone under 6".

 

They had to.

 

Less inerested in his influence. More interested in his unique singularity.

[tomk]

That's the most entertaining thing I've read in the thread so far. Sorry for the Quote+One Sentence... but people need to read it again.

 

 

John

 

I don't keep old observers in any organized fashion but I'm pretty sure that Angle got almost 100% of the worker/biz insider vote with the implication being that he would have gotten in even without any of the reporter/historian votes.

[sek69]

Quick points before I have to go.

 

Wow. Different worlds altogether. Wow. When did the Steiners backlash start? Is there anything safe from backlash? Who's next?

I seriously didn't know the Steiners were thought of by anyone as anything more than guys who stiffed a lot of dudes and had a run in New Japan when WCW was sending a lot of talent over there. I never realized there was a sense of the Steiners being thought of as HOF-worthy in any non-ironic sense.

 

I mean, they had some good matches, but c'mon. Scott had a much better career as a singles worker and no one would suggest he's HOF worthy.

[Jingus]

Heyman was a funny one. WON HOFers as Bingo Hall goers drinking the Kool-Aid.

Firstly, is he in only as a booker? Cuz if you include his stuff as a color commentator and Dangerous Alliance leader and the greatest amateur hypnotist of all time, his case is a bit stronger.

 

Secondly, even if it's just for ECW, I'd say that gets him in on the "influence" part. You can certainly debate whether the influence was a good thing or not, and where Heyman originally stole his ideas from, and all that, but ECW still has a lingering effect to this day. Even though he ain't around anymore, one of Vince's TV shows is still named after Heyman's former company, and you can hardly go to any wrestling show anywhere without seeing someone get put through a plywood table. Plus there's the various amphetamine-paced brawling swervapalooza stuff that Russo swiped and turned into Attitude, and the various workers who were complete unknowns before their Philly runs before eventually getting hired to the big leagues, and the surprisingly high sales figures for the Rise and Fall dvd and the first One Night Stand, and how even schmucks like Justin Credible get an "Eee-Sea-Dub" chant at every indy shot they're ever paid fifty bucks for...

 

It's not necessarily a positive influence on the wrestling biz today, but the influence is definitely there.

[Dylan Waco]

I am not one of those guys who believes Heyman is an abyssmal candidate who shouldn't even be considered, but if he gets in, how do you keep out someone like Sabu who has an almost identical resume in terms of both positives and negatives?

 

 

I realize this another "x is better than y who is already in" thing and those things are kind of nightmarish for the whole process to mean anything, but my point is this. How many Heyman voters were Sabu voters? Because one would imagine that looking at the available facts, those that drew conclusions about one, would draw similar conclusions about the other..yet that is not how the votes broke. It is one of those unexplainably non-sensical results, like Benoit getting in and Eddie nearly dropping off the ballot..how does that even happen?

 

 

Honestly my biggest problem with the HoF now is that because of "fresher" names hitting from the boom era, we are getting more talk about The Dudleyz than we are about guys like Sgt. Slaughter for example, who may not be a lock candidate, but is certainly someone worthy of a serious, serious look.

[Dylan Waco]

Eh, why not?

 

PERFORMERS LIST

 

Jun Akiyama - Slightly less shitty candidate then he seems, in that he doesn't even get the credit for the "was on or near the top for a long time" schtick that always seems to work when someone is desperately dredging up an argument for Sting. Still no for alot of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that he is essentially a failed project (though that's not entirely his fault)..also I can't see any argument for him getting in over Taue, and Taue isn't even on the ballot. Honestly, I say Taue is a better candidate than all but a handful of these guys and is someone I would probably vote for if I had a vote.

 

 

Gene & Ole Anderson - I don't like that Richard Sullivan crying in a seventy page thread brought their candidacy back, though that did lead to other names being unretired, including one that probably deserves alot more thought. Still don't think there is enough information for me to advocate for them, though I admit they are stronger candidates than they initially seemed.

 

Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto) - Don't know nearly enough to argue for or against.

 

Red Bastien - Wierd guy who is more of name than alot of other older guys that get pimped harder. Not sure.

 

Carlos Colon - I don't see an argument for keeping him out at this point. Too many other guys are in based primarily on the strengths of regional superstardom and Colon was a culture icon in a way few of them were. I'm glad he hasn't coasted on, but it is time and I would vote for him.

 

The Dudley Boys (Bubba Ray & D-Von) - I know Loss has thrown out the Hardyz as an interesting case..I wouldn't vote for the Hardyz but I think they should probably make the ballot. I wouldn't vote for the Dudleyz and I don't think they should even be on the ballot..not even sure I would rate them above Public Enemy in terms of "ECW teams known for chucking other guys through tables and winning tag belts multiple times". If Public Enemy can debatably claim to be a surperior team, kinda hard to make a case.

 

Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero - Don't know enough.

 

Gran Hamada - Shit, I kind of feel like if more Hamada footage was out there and talked about he would be in...but really can't make the case without more footage and a better timeline.

 

Volk Han - I know he was the focus of his promotion for years, was the best at his style, et but I'm not sure hit neccesarily matters....interesting to compare someone like Han opposite someone like Colon and I admit that you can run the Colon case for Han to a degree and argue for him, but it just seems like a guy with fewer career matches than Shane McMahon shouldn't be in the HoF.

 

Owen Hart - I'm struggiling to think of a reason why Owen would be on the ballot and not Scott Hall..I realize you can bitch about this staff ad nauseum to little effect..and really I think Owen is a slightly less shitty candidate then some say..but really he shouldn't be near the HoF and Hall is a guy you could at least construct a shitty Heymanesque argument for.

 

Curt Hennig - Love him, but peak years as a worker were short, he won a dead world title and was pretty much the only 80s WWF heel to tank opposite Hogan. If you couldn't draw with Hogan, you shoudln't be in the HoF.

 

Chris Jericho - Would not vote for him, but I really feel like hes one of those guys that is easily dismissed out of the gates, but there may be more there.

 

Satoshi Kojima - The fact that people will vote for him and Taue isn't on the ballot is sad.

 

Ivan Koloff - I could imagine myself being persuaded to advocate for him. He is a good guy to have on the ballot because it will draw attention to other heels and guys from that era that were forgotten, but I'm not sure he should be in.

 

Konnan - The anti-Ultimo in that U.S. fans won't vote for him because he was shit in the States and is mostly remembered for being shitty NWO Wolfpack mouthpiece...sad because he should probably be in.

 

Karloff Lagarde - not sure

Jose Lothario - just seems bizaare that he is on the ballot at all. I know he's not all that popular, but you mean to tell me there are really more guys willing to make the case for him, than there are for Big Daddy. Is he even a better nominee than Lex Luger?

 

Mark Lewin - Kinda surprised he isn't in, as he is a "name" that seems like he should be in..but I don't know enough.

 

Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane) - I'd vote for them, but I am a mark for Southern tags, think they were innovative, the best unit ever, and about as good a draw as a team wworking that gimmick could reasonably have been.

 

Bill Miller - Yohe and others have made a pretty strong argument that he should've been in long ago. I'd likely vote for him based on the information out there.

 

Fabulous Moolah - No.

 

Dick Murdoch - I'm still awaiting figures on Murdoch as a draw....if something substantial trickles out I think he's got a strong case.

 

Rey Mysterio - I'd say he's as close to a no brainer as we are going to see for a long time. I did a Gordy List for him years back that is somewhere on this site.

 

Paul Orndorff - Glad to see him brought back..I wouldn't vote for him, but I think he's worth exploring if for no other reason than because he is a useful measuring stick opposite other guys..for instance if you plop Paul next to Curt and you are being fair, it's going to be hard to make the case that Curt is a better candidate, even though Curt always has his supporters and Orndorff is not a guy who is exactly inspiring a grassroots rebellion. He's not the new Murdoch, because I don't know that he's as good a candidate as Dick, but he is useful on the ballot for similar reasons.

 

Blue Panther - Really hard for me, because I'm just now starting to dig into lucha and he's been really good in everything I've seen, but Lucha experts seem divided on him and I couldn't see voting for him.

 

The Rock (Dwayne Johnson) - I really want to see someone argue against this.

 

Rock & Roll Express - see Midnight Express

 

Rick Rude - I love Rude but no..Similar to Hennig, though he's a slightly better candidate.

 

Sabu - No, but Heyman voters really should have voted for him and thankfully didn't.

 

Seiji Sakaguchi - No

 

Masa Saito - Man I really, really need to go back and find the Saito tape that the a1wrestling guys made years ago, because it is really awesome..still I don't think he's an HoFer.

 

Kensuke Sasaki - I guess he's someone to consider though, he's not someone I would advoate for.

 

Hans Schmidt - Would have to defer to a higher authority on this.

 

Sgt. Slaughter - Not sure, but if I had a vote I would vote for him just to make sure he doesn't drop off the ballot. Feud with Kernodle v. Steamboat/Youngblood that was famous and huge. Similar well drawing feud with Iron Sheik. did well opposite Baklund. Very good worker for years. Famous crossover figure, maybe slightly before Hogan even. There is alot there.

 

Jimmy Snuka - I can see the case, but to me Snuka is Goldberg with a Ric Flair lenght career, so no.

 

Wilbur Snyder - I've never thought the arguments were particularly strong on Classics. If an argument for an old timer on Classics isn't made very well I assume there isn't an argument.

 

Steiner Brothers - I'm a huge Steiners mark. Have no problem with them being on the ballot. I always thought it was cool that they were one of the only two or three teams who could work opposite tagging singles stars and seem like legit threats. Thought they were great as "special attractions". But no. They aren't an "lol r u kdding me" candidacy, but no.

 

Sting - No and really I think its sad that guys like Todd Martin playing the affirmative action card for guys from there era helped get him tossed back on the ballot.

 

Kiyoshi Tamura - No.

 

John Tolos - No.

Enrique Torres - Not sure

Universo 2000 - Ditto

 

Rob Van Dam - Last year Booker T dropped off the ballot IRRC. I have no problem with that, but really Van Dam isn't a better candidate, and I get the sense he will stay on the ballot.

 

Villano III - Seems like this should be a yes.

 

Vampiro - Need more info because I have heard mixed things about him..Jericho vicisiously slams him in his book btww. I don't think he has more bad things to say about any other wrestler actually.

 

Kerry Von Erich - I almost wouldn't mind this. No doubt that he was big in World Class and had name value outside the territory. But I wouldn't vote for him.

 

Dr. Wagner Sr. - Don't know enough

Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker - No

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods - Not sure

 

NON-WRESTLER LIST

 

Lou Albano - No.

 

Paco Alonso - Don't know enough.

 

Jim Crockett Jr. - No.

 

Gary Hart - This one is interesting and might deserve some thought.

 

Jerry Jarrett - I'm gonna say no, with the qualification that if Don Owen gets in, he's got to get in.

Gorilla Monsoon - I love him, but someone would have to make a great argument relating to his capital sports/WWE part ownership status for him to be a serious cotender.

Don Owen - No..but..

Roy Shire - Based on what I know and have seen he really seems like someone that SHOULD be in..I'd vote for him.

 

Jesse Ventura - No.

 

If I had votes the only people I would definately vote for would be:

 

Midnights

RnRs

The Rock

Rey Jr.

Colon

Slaughter

 

I'm almost a hundred percent sure I would vote for Bill Miller and Roy Shire too, though I would feel guilty, since pretty much everything there is based on second hand accounts and opinons. Would not vote for any Luchadores only because I wouldn't want my vote for Konan or Villano III to hurt another candidate that also might to deserve it, but I am ignorant on. If Taue was on the ballot I'd vote for him...and I could really see myself voting for Dick Murdoch, Ivan Kolof and even Orndorff just to keep them from bouncing off the ballot.

[kjh]

Carlos Colon - I don't see an argument for keeping him out at this point.

Some people will never vote for him because he covered up Bruiser Brody's murder and pushed the murderer as a top babyface for a long time afterwards. Of course, those same people are happy to vote for similarly morally bankrupt characters like Rey Mysterio, who has been happy to exploit the death of his best friend in WWE. I think that argument is really silly, but that and the ignorance of many voters to Puerto Rican wrestling history will make it an uphill battle for him to be inducted.

[S.L.L.]

It is one of those unexplainably non-sensical results, like Benoit getting in and Eddie nearly dropping off the ballot..how does that even happen?

I remember the first time they put Eddie on the ballot, and Dave did his radio show with Matysik and Tenay discussing the candidates. Everyone was really gung ho about voting Benoit in, but when talk turned to Eddie, they were all against it because "it's too soon for him". I was just sort of staring at my computer with my head cocked to the side like a confused dog.

[Cox]

The voting age requirement is really too easy. At age 35, most wrestlers are in the middle of their drawing prime, and it's too soon to be able to take a real hard look at their candidacy. The age really should be 40, as most wrestlers are starting to leave their drawing peak around that age, and it's easier to assess their real influence in wrestling by that point.

[Dylan Waco]

It is one of those unexplainably non-sensical results, like Benoit getting in and Eddie nearly dropping off the ballot..how does that even happen?

I remember the first time they put Eddie on the ballot, and Dave did his radio show with Matysik and Tenay discussing the candidates. Everyone was really gung ho about voting Benoit in, but when talk turned to Eddie, they were all against it because "it's too soon for him". I was just sort of staring at my computer with my head cocked to the side like a confused dog.

 

I have no problem with the "too early" argument..."too early" MIGHT have stopped Angle for example who has now shown that he "peaked" already when most people were assuming he'd still be "great" for years.

 

But that argument doesn't really work when you are the guy who put him on the ballot. It also doesn't work when he is "too early and the guy with the nearly identical career isn't.

[Phil Schneider]

It is also pretty clear that Eddie was always a better candidate then Benoit. Comparable as workers, but Benoit was a midcarder everywhere he worked, and Eddie had the AAA run where he was an actual big draw in a hot promotion.

[Jingus]

The voting age requirement is really too easy. At age 35, most wrestlers are in the middle of their drawing prime, and it's too soon to be able to take a real hard look at their candidacy. The age really should be 40, as most wrestlers are starting to leave their drawing peak around that age, and it's easier to assess their real influence in wrestling by that point.

I don't see why they have anyone who's still an active fulltime wrestler in the HOF in the first place. Don't most Halls of Fame for any given sport tend to only induct someone after they retire?

[sek69]

Yeah but wrestling retirements aren't permanent unless brought about by death.

 

Also, and I'm not saying it's incorrect, but why is Moolah always discounted as a "no" vote with no explanation given? I would think given the lowered standards of US women's wrestling she'd be a lock but it's not like the world is a lesser place if she never gets voted in. Just wondering why she gets the automatic dismissal all the time.

[Jingus]

why is Moolah always discounted as a "no" vote with no explanation given?

Yeah, I was wondering that too. Beyond being one of (if not the) top female stars for decades, I'd always heard she to some extent controlled the entire women's wrestling movement in America in sort of a shadow-promoter type fashion for a number of years.

[S.L.L.]

The voting age requirement is really too easy. At age 35, most wrestlers are in the middle of their drawing prime, and it's too soon to be able to take a real hard look at their candidacy. The age really should be 40, as most wrestlers are starting to leave their drawing peak around that age, and it's easier to assess their real influence in wrestling by that point.

I seldom point to the Rock 'N' Roll Hall of Fame as setting a good example of anything, but 25 years after a performer's debut always sounded about right to me for rock and wrestling (pun unintended).

[jdw]

Moolah sucked, and womens wrestling in the country sucked while she controlled it.

 

Stephanie McMahon is more worthy if we want to vote for people who suck. While WWE Creative has sucked cock while she's headed it up, the WWE has turned a profit while she's headed it up. Hell, setting aside the accounting write-offs and Vince's dividends, the WWE has probably turned a higher profit in every *month* that she's headed WWE Creative than Heyman turned in any *year* that he booked ECW.

 

I wouldn't vote for Steph. But on some level, she had done her "job" no matter how poorly we think she's done it - the promotion she heads up creatively makes cash... a lot of it.

 

The segment of the industry that Moolah headed up wasn't even a blip on the radar of wrestling, other than a brief moment in the Rock-and-Wrestling Connection.

 

Nick Gulas probably had a bigger positive impact on pro wrestling as a promoter than Moolah, and Nick is generally thought of as a joke. There are probably 40 promoters/bookers we could come up with who did more than Moohal.

 

So you're left with Moolah holding a title forver that no one really gave a shit about. You could find regional titles that someone dominated that meant more than Moolah's title.

 

What surprised me is that Dave keeps her on the ballot. She's just about the last person he wants in the HOF, but there is the risk that there's enough idiot voters out there to push her past the low 60% threshold.

 

 

John

[S.L.L.]

I always find myself wondering why the people always pushing for Moolah on the basis of her being a top women's star in America for a long time are never pushing the HOF candidacy of Sky Low Low. It's not like Moolah was drastically more important. Sky Low Low performed for Queen Elizabeth. How's that for mainstream recognition?

[Jingus]

Moolah sucked, and womens wrestling in the country sucked while she controlled it.

But, once again, is the voting for best influence or most influence?

[Bix]

FYI, the minimums were changed to 15 years pro or 40 years old with 10 years pro post-Angle induction.

 

The only legit argument for Moolah is her coup in taking over women's wrestling in the US. That's really not enough.

[Al]

The voting age requirement is really too easy. At age 35, most wrestlers are in the middle of their drawing prime, and it's too soon to be able to take a real hard look at their candidacy. The age really should be 40, as most wrestlers are starting to leave their drawing peak around that age, and it's easier to assess their real influence in wrestling by that point.

I seldom point to the Rock 'N' Roll Hall of Fame as setting a good example of anything, but 25 years after a performer's debut always sounded about right to me for rock and wrestling (pun unintended).

 

I endorse this. That would give us guys who debuted in 1982 or earlier. MAYBE you make it 20 years. No less than that.

[jdw]

Moolah sucked, and womens wrestling in the country sucked while she controlled it.

But, once again, is the voting for best influence or most influence?

 

What influence?

 

Womens wrestling was a blip before Moolah.

 

It was a blip during her.

 

It was a blip after her, unless one wants to credit the Divas with something.

 

Honestly... one probably could point to 2-3 Divas who had more "influence" than Moolah. Sable for sure.

 

Sable for the HOF, anyone?

 

 

John

[Loss]

And yes, best influence. It's a Hall of Fame. Why would you want people in for bad reasons? It would be like suggesting putting in Vince Russo because while he did book WCW to its death, WCW's death was also very influential on the modern scene.