Most unselfish top guy

[joeg]

59 minutes ago, Clayton Jones said:

I think the main issue with Misawa's booking of himself is in how he worked his matches late in his career, not so much who he lost or didn't lose to. Outside of a few examples he never transitioned to the veteran relying on experience and smarts to take on the physically superior younger generation. He typically worked equal to or stronger than his opponent, and if they beat him it felt like the luck of the draw. 

Bingo. Well said. He was in his mid 40s and a shell of who he was a decade prior. Despite this he regularly made guys 20 years younger than him look physically inferior or equal when working them.  Jumbo tapped out to a crossface! At no point did Misawa work a match like he was physically less than or weaker than his younger counter parts. 

To me its not even that Misawa was selfish in his booking or how he worked as he got older, he was just short sighted. At some point he would need somebody to replace he and Kobashi, you can't wrestle forever, and he never prepared for that. 

[MoS]

I know Baba relegated himself to comedy 6-mans when he got older, but did he ever put over someone as conclusively and in an epoch-marking way as Jumbo put over Misawa or even Misawa did for Kobashi in 03?

[Loss]

My answer, by the way, is John Cena. Lost to every Johnny-come-lately that came through the company that they were momentarily high on during his run. Was willing to lose to Brock Lesnar in a match where had literally zero offensive moves. Lost to the Undertaker in less than 3 minutes at a Wrestlemania. It puts in perspective how bad Kennedy was, because I think he's the only person Cena ever had a problem with. 

[MoS]

21 minutes ago, Loss said:

My answer, by the way, is John Cena. Lost to every Johnny-come-lately that came through the company that they were momentarily high on during his run. Was willing to lose to Brock Lesnar in a match where had literally zero offensive moves. Lost to the Undertaker in less than 3 minutes at a Wrestlemania. It puts in perspective how bad Kennedy was, because I think he's the only person Cena ever had a problem with. 

He also refused to put over Jack Swagger, and it was one of the few things that unified wrestling twitter, cuz literally everyone was like "He was right to do that, good decision by Cena." 

Also, while Cena is right up there, I would still put Rock over him. As I said in my OP, Cena had the more squashy, jobber-y losses, but he was also booked like a superman in some of his matches. Certainly his booking run had him feel like a Superman far more than Rock's run. Rock's run was much briefer (although obviously had much higher highs) and even during that run, he was jobbing clean to Big Bossman, E&C, and even tapping to a Chris Benoit crossface. I guess this might be due to the fact that Cena was the undisputed number one guy in his run, while Rock always felt like the 1A to Stone Cold's 1, even when Austin was off TV for most of the year. I still think Rock would be my pick for the most unselfish top guy. 

[Loss]

I don't remember the Swagger story at all!

Rock was definitely selfless in doing jobs in matches. It worked because he never did a job in a promo. You never saw someone else, at least not that I can recall, get the last word, and end the segment with their music playing instead of his.

[MoS]

9 minutes ago, Loss said:

I don't remember the Swagger story at all!

Hager revealed it recently on a podcast with Jericho. As I said, the reaction he got was the opposite of what he must have been expecting lol

10 minutes ago, Loss said:

Rock was definitely selfless in doing jobs in matches. It worked because he never did a job in a promo. You never saw someone else, at least not that I can recall, get the last word, and end the segment with their music playing instead of his.

Triple H used to try his best lol. It just would never work on account of Rock being a million times more charismatic than Hunter could ever be 

[sek69]

I always was of the opinion that Miswa deep down did really think he was trying to create a new star, but his top guy wrestler brain just wouldn't let him do it.  I mean, he not only was the ace for a long time, he was considered one of the best of all time if not *the* best  ever,  and guys with the drive to reach that level normally can't just flip a switch and start putting guys over.

[SteveJRogers]

On 2/27/2021 at 6:10 PM, Loss said:

My answer, by the way, is John Cena. Lost to every Johnny-come-lately that came through the company that they were momentarily high on during his run. Was willing to lose to Brock Lesnar in a match where had literally zero offensive moves. Lost to the Undertaker in less than 3 minutes at a Wrestlemania. It puts in perspective how bad Kennedy was, because I think he's the only person Cena ever had a problem with. 

I think Wade Barrett still blames him for the Nexus failing.

[NintendoLogic]

Edge and Jericho have said that Cena making a 2-on-1 comeback after being DDTed on the floor at Summerslam 2010 was Cena's own idea. They also said that they both fought for the Nexus to go over in that match, but Cena had other ideas. Speaking of terrible booking decisions, it's worth remembering that Cena beat Lesnar clean in Brock's first match back with the company and apparently double-crossed him in the post-match. He also had a near-submission off an STF late in their Summerslam match, so saying he had zero offensive moves is incorrect. More broadly, his losses were mostly negated by the fact that he almost always got his win back shortly afterward and almost never sold the impact of the losses in his promos.

[Matt D]

The most interesting part of Arn’s podcast is when he talks about Cena, including that he occasionally did what he felt like he had to.

[Strummer]

Yes, Nexus was originally supposed to go over in that match but Cena got it changed I believe the day of the show

[Loss]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

Edge and Jericho have said that Cena making a 2-on-1 comeback after being DDTed on the floor at Summerslam 2010 was Cena's own idea. They also said that they both fought for the Nexus to go over in that match, but Cena had other ideas. Speaking of terrible booking decisions, it's worth remembering that Cena beat Lesnar clean in Brock's first match back with the company and apparently double-crossed him in the post-match. He also had a near-submission off an STF late in their Summerslam match, so saying he had zero offensive moves is incorrect. More broadly, his losses were mostly negated by the fact that he almost always got his win back shortly afterward and almost never sold the impact of the losses in his promos.

I stand corrected. He got an offensive move. Does this negate the point? 

I think it's a ridiculous standard to say that in order for someone to be the "most unselfish ever", there can never be a single instance of them doing something selfish. 

[NintendoLogic]

It's not just the instances of selfishness but the damage they did. The WWE star-making machine completely broke down during Cena's time on top, and I think he has to bear a degree of responsibility for that.

[El-P]

7 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

 The WWE star-making machine completely broke down during Cena's time on top, and I think he has to bear a degree of responsibility for that.

See also what I'm saying in the "aging thread" about Cena teaching them the terrible lesson that the audience booing the Ace does not matter... when in fact it does and should be listened to. Of course it's not his responsibility per say, but the fact he dealt so well with it fucked up the process big time because WWE suddenly thought it was ok to push whoever they had chosen and that the audience did not matter and should not been listened to.

[Loss]

If you base it on people who were getting organic reactions where fans seemed ready for them to take the next step, their biggest chances to make other stars at that level while Cena was the guy were probably:

- Jeff Hardy
- Rey Mysterio
- CM Punk
- Ryback
- Daniel Bryan

It's hard to think of Cena doing anything hindering their ability to get any of them over. In every case except Ryback, it's an issue of Vince not wanting to make smaller guys stars. Cena vs Johnny Ace headlining over the Punk-Bryan title match is pretty inexcusable.

In terms of pet projects that didn't materialize as long-term headliners, their biggest chances were probably:

- Alberto Del Rio
- Sheamus
- Drew McIntyre

I don't see it there either.

In terms of cases where people showed real talent and the fans were expecting something more to come out of it, you have, off the top of my head:

- Cesaro, who I think Cena helped with their matches
- Kevin Owens, who was never going to replace Cena but showed signs of boosting business early on, only for it to end when Cena repeatedly beat him (and to be clear, I'm not aware of any story of Owens being booked to go over him and Cena going back and changing it)

The cases where there probably is something to the criticism, even though I still wouldn't put it all on Cena:

- Wade Barrett/Nexus
- Rusev

Cena beat Rusev way too many times and basically destroyed what they spent a year building in the process. Even there, the issue seemed to be that Vince was treating him as a heel to be cycled up and down the way the company had treated monster heels going back to the 1970s.

I do think the Nexus critique is fair.

[Loss]

5 minutes ago, El-P said:

See also what I'm saying in the "aging thread" about Cena teaching them the terrible lesson that the audience booing the Ace does not matter... when in fact it does and should be listened to. Of course it's not his responsibility per say, but the fact he dealt so well with it fucked up the process big time because WWE suddenly thought it was ok to push whoever they had chosen and that the audience did not matter and should not been listened to.

Hell, they even took the boos as a sign that the Reigns push was working! That's how broken things became. You started hearing the argument that a universally cheered babyface just wasn't possible anymore, despite that Daniel Bryan was a universally cheered babyface just a year earlier.

[Strummer]

I also think the announcers saying Cena had a "terrible year" in 2012 during Punk's reign hurt Cena even more. Yes he lost to Rock at Mania that year but he beat Brock Lesnar clean the very next month! And as mentioned main evented a ppv against a non McMcahon authority figure. Little stuff like that added to the resentment 

[Boss Rock]

FWIW, Kevin Eck said on one of Wade Keller's podcasts that during the Cena-Ziggler feud that Cena wasn't impressed by Ziggler's ability to call a match and relayed that to Vince. That may be why Dolph never got a sustained push.

[El-P]

29 minutes ago, Loss said:

You started hearing the argument that a universally cheered babyface just wasn't possible anymore, despite that Daniel Bryan was a universally cheered babyface just a year earlier.

Yeah, that's right. It was just insane the way they went to justify that Roman push that very obviously their audience did not want. I know it's more of a topic for the other thread, but what strikes me also is that back then you'd get the argument that TV did not matter because women & children at house shows were cheering Roman (same argument as with Cena), ignoring the fact that house show business had been dwindling down to be a money loser, and the COVID actually helped WWE on that matter. Plus, TV actually is all there is as far as getting the money, so the perception you get from the audience on TV is the reality of the product. Again, COVID has been helping WWE in that the controlled fake crowd noise is everything they needed, there's no way the Fiend bullshit would have gotten over with an actual audience.

[PeteF3]

On 2/27/2021 at 6:42 PM, Loss said:

Rock was definitely selfless in doing jobs in matches. It worked because he never did a job in a promo. You never saw someone else, at least not that I can recall, get the last word, and end the segment with their music playing instead of his.

 

On 2/27/2021 at 6:53 PM, MoS said:

Triple H used to try his best lol. It just would never work on account of Rock being a million times more charismatic than Hunter could ever be 

No music because it took place backstage, but when Foley tore into him when he thought he threw his book away, it was a rare occurrence of Rock being completely shut down and overmatched verbally. Foley was even drawing cheers for it because his delivery was so great.

 

[C.S.]

Let's add Miz to the list.

Someone (or someones) will say "not a top guy" and that someone (or someones) will be wrong.

[KinchStalker]

On 2/27/2021 at 3:00 PM, MoS said:

I know Baba relegated himself to comedy 6-mans when he got older, but did he ever put over someone as conclusively and in an epoch-marking way as Jumbo put over Misawa or even Misawa did for Kobashi in 03?

Not really. The closest he came was the 1989 RWTL match (alongside Rusher Kimura) against Ryukanhou, in which Tenryu got the pin in a total aberration of All Japan hierarchy.

As I've been recounting in my history thread, the torch-passing from Baba to Jumbo in the early 80s was the doing of Nippon TV, and that never involved Baba putting Tsuruta over. After Hansen beat him for the PWF title that last time in 1985 his biggest singles matches were old-man bouts against Kimura and a couple nostalgia matches against Abby and Singh. So in Misawa's defense, him going over Jumbo was really something that Baba (note that Weekly Pro Wrestling editor Tarzan Yamamoto - whom Baba later paid to print negative coverage of Tenryu post-exodus - claimed he had a hand in convincing Baba to put Misawa over) only did once.

[sek69]

52 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Let's add Miz to the list.

Someone (or someones) will say "not a top guy" and that someone (or someones) will be wrong.

Miz is a top guy in terms of someone who does all the work the company expects from a top guy (media, press junkets, gigs hosting other TV shows) all while never moving any numbers a top guy should do.

It's weird.....I don't want to say he's "cosplaying" a top guy, but he's been largely kept safely in the mid card in comedy or comedy-adjacent roles and can be temporarily be stuck in a top guy role when needed. He's never been seriously pushed as a credible main eventer though, even both his title runs were notable for just being set dressing for the real main event guys.

Funny thing is, I'm confident he could be a very capable top level guy if his career wasn't hamstrung in the beginning by idiots jealous he was a TV star before entering THA BIZ and didn't do the proper amount of bowing and genuflection before entering the locker room.

So I guess I'm kind of saying "not a top guy" but  for reasons largely out of his control. I would love to see an alternate timeline where WWE wasn't a monopoly for an entire generation and he was able to have started off in a company that doesn't handcuff young talent due to their weird hangups.

[MoS]

If Miz is an unselfish top guy, then so is Christian, Big Show, Mark Henry, Edge, and about a dozen others. I believe that including them dilutes the discussion to become almost meaningless. I am talking about the absolute top-tier wrestlers, who had a sustained main event run, instead of career midcarders with occasional runs at the top. 

[Mad Dog]

On 2/27/2021 at 6:42 PM, Loss said:

I don't remember the Swagger story at all!

Rock was definitely selfless in doing jobs in matches. It worked because he never did a job in a promo. You never saw someone else, at least not that I can recall, get the last word, and end the segment with their music playing instead of his.

Hurricane got him in that one promo where he said he had a small dingaling and zoomed away. Rock awkwardly tries to brush it off but you can tell in character Hurricane hit on an insecurity. That's about the only promo job I saw him do.