2026 Ideas

[Clayton Jones]

On my rough draft Martel is coincidentally 44, so if I'm going to trust my gut I think a drop from 43 is inevitable in 2026 unfortunately. Damn the fucking hipsters to hell.

[elliott]

To anyone following along, you're allowed to like different things no matter what anyone says or how anyone acts. There isnt an expectation that everyone participating knows everything and has seen everything and will like everything. That's why we're talking so much about helping each other on our paths of discovery. I'm happy to help Danny learn about classic Joshi and I know OJ will put the time in helping me learn about Jim Londos etc etc. 

Nothing is written in stone. If you think Okada is better than Ric Flair. That's ok. Not everyone will agree with you but you won't be disparaged and you won't be talked down to just because someone disagrees with you or is approaching their fandom from a different point of view. I dont care if you like modern indies, french stuff, 80s WWF, whatever and I dont care if you're 18 or if you're 60. Everyone will be treated with respect. 

[JerryvonKramer]

2 hours ago, Clayton Jones said:

On my rough draft Martel is coincidentally 44, so if I'm going to trust my gut I think a drop from 43 is inevitable in 2026 unfortunately. Damn the fucking hipsters to hell.

The Martel example was not entirely random, and to be clear my reason for thinking Martel will drop -- possibly out of the 100 altogether -- is not because of the hipsters but rather because of the more open and decentralised nature of the poll this time.

 

I happened to listen to a podcast called The Beginners Guide to Japanese Wrestling discussing 70s and 80s AJPW. The hosts were likely guys in their mid-20s. These were not casual fans, they were fans hardcore enough not only to host a wrestling podcast about Puro but one which saw them actively going back to watch matches from the 70s and 80s. Obviously, their main way in is through current Japan, but still this is not just an average fan.

 

A few of the matches they watched featured Jumbo vs. Rick Martel. Some of their comments about Martel are instructive of what I'm talking about:

 

- These matches were good because Jumbo carried Martel.

- Martel was good but not great, a clear step behind the other legends they were watching.

- Martel was born to play his model gimmick as a heel 

- Martel was a bit bland as a babyface

 

These takes are what I'd call "unreconstructed IWC". These guys are hardcore fans but they haven't been schooled by the DVDR crew, spent hours having all their preconceptions challenged by goodhelmet and Phil Schneider and so on.

 

Since the project will be less tied to the board and open to twitter fans, added to the fact that the general voterbase will have more younger voters, it strikes me as inevitable that the view someone like Martel was or even could be a Top 50 of all time greatest worker will slip off. Similar fates seem likely for Greg Valentine, Tito Santana, and possibly even Jerry Lawler depending on the concentration of "unreconstructed IWC" in the voter base. Maybe I'm wrong and 2026 will surprise me ...

[El-P]

4 hours ago, elliott said:

Not everyone will agree with you but you won't be disparaged and you won't be talked down to just because someone disagrees with you or is approaching their fandom from a different point of view. I dont care if you like modern indies, french stuff, 80s WWF, whatever and I dont care if you're 18 or if you're 60. Everyone will be treated with respect. 

Hopefully.

However, stuff like this is not good sign :

"they haven't been schooled", 'they haven't spend hours having their preconception challenged"... 

For fuck's sake. The patronizing tone is unbearable already. Gatekeeping and using authority arguments. Talking down to *potential* voters already. Just wonderful.

[MoS]

I mean, JvK spent the entire 2016 ballot being rude, insulting and condescending to anyone and everyone who didn't have Flair in their top 5, so what were we even expecting? (This is coming from someone who definitely as of now has Flair in their top 5.) He is all about healthy debates and discussions...right until someone challenges his core beliefs, at which point they are just stupid rubes who need re-education. Like, just imagine thinking Rick Martel is not a GOAT. Even worse, imagine holding the blasphemous belief that counting the number of and different kinds of suplexes some wrestler does is not a metric by itself for judging how great they were in-ring. 

However, I have to say that the idea that Daniel Bryan's case will be uplifted due to a bunch of casual rubes in 2026 is so hilariously uninformed, it makes all the bad takes worth it. Yeah, voting for the tiny vegan guy the billion-dollar promotion has tried to bury for the last 10 years, only to fail again and again just cuz he is so amazing at wrestling, to the point he has become their most consistent main-eventer despite standing for everything Vince hates, is just uninformed hipsterism. Hell, Daniel Bryan is literally the spiritual successor to Ric Flair. But fuck all "modern computer-generated video game workers" I guess. 

[Grimmas]

Flair is not in my top ten, Akira Hokuto is my #1 right now. 

If someone wants to vote Jon Moxley #1 that is fucking awesome, I want to hear their case from you. I will disagree and would love to debate that, but that's fucking cool and you are awesome.

[El-P]

I'm not sure Flair is gonna be in my top 20. I have no idea *at all* who my N°1 will end up being. I have no idea where the next five years will lead me, if only because I don't know what those five years will bring in term of great wrestling (and they will). I have no idea how my approach will evolve as I'm watching tons of different stuff. Hell, yesterday I noted a name that I guarantee you *no one* will have in their list, and who is not about great match at all. Maybe the name will end up in my list, maybe not.

"It's a marathon, not a sprint"....

[MoS]

For me, the thing with Flair always is, no one was as good, as frequently, for as long in as every single aspect of wrestling, despite terrible and consistently counter-productive booking, than Flair was. It's why I think there's a spiritual connection between Flair and Bryan. The ability to be transcendentally great for as long as these two despite dealing with booking that (often intentionally) crippled them, has to count for a lot. Just shows how preternaturally good at wrestling they both are, in my opinion 

[KB8]

I probably won't spend any time talking about Flair this time around. I was sort of bored doing it by 2016 so I don't really have any interest going around in circles again five-ten years later. I'll probably have him about where I had him last time - outside the top 20 but inside the top 30. So like, 27 or something, who the hell knows. 

I like OJ's take on things - how his ballot would essentially be a snapshot of where he is as a fan at a particular point in time. I approached 2016 pretty similarly to that, but as I've tweaked and updated my list sporadically since then I've leaned even more into that idea. I probably would've had Flair, Jumbo, Misawa and Jushin Liger top 5 in 2006 (I never took part in the smarkschoice GWE poll, though the WWF/E poll in 2008 was the first big internet wrestling nerd poll I did participate in, so here's to smarkshoice). My top 5 in 2016 never had any of them and likely won't have any of them in 2026. I sort of learned to stop thinking too much about where I've BEEN as a fan, of what I used to think was the pinnacle, and trust the judgment of where I'm at now (and was at in 2016), so what I thought fifteen years ago doesn't weight so heavy on my mind. If that's hipsterism or an example of being distracted by the shiny new toy then so be it*. Plus Negro Casas is better than all of them anyway. 

 

 

*tbh, I'll fully admit to being one of those "always looking for new discoveries" types. I've literally been watching this stupid nonsense since I was three years old so I've earned it.

[MoS]

But let us ask the real question, guys: who is better: Ric Flair or Bret Hart?  

(Please don't ban me) 

[Matt D]

Anyway, it's up to us to make the case to people who are less familiar with someone like Martel and to highlight what we find great about him. We get to share something we really enjoy with people who are less familiar. That's great. Hopefully, they'll see what we see and they'll end up loving pro wrestling all the more because of it.

I'll want people to be able to back up their lists with footage, but the only thing I'm going to draw a hard line on is Brody. If you're putting Brody high, I want to hear about the specific matches and the moments that brought you to that point relative to his rep and superficial observations. I'm not going to be a real jerk about it, though, just a minor one.

[Grimmas]

2 minutes ago, MoS said:

But let us ask the real question, guys: who is better: Ric Flair or Bret Hart?  

(Please don't ban me) 

That was the first podcast I ever did. I am 2 billion percent more confident Bret > Flair today than back then.

[Quentin]

I was a Bryan number 1 voter last time and that was with roughly 13-14 years of being an incredible wrestler and thriving in anything you could ever ask a wrestler to do and thriving when he wasn’t even meant to either at points. In the 6 years since then (3 really since he returned in 2018), he’s been the best or near the best in the company once again as both a heel and eventually a veteran babyface. Possible WWE MOTY in every year since he’s come back and there’s no sign at all of that ending any time soon, when he’s having a killer 2021, 20 years after the Ki match from King of Indies. Bryan number 1 is a lock for me. 

[MoS]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

I'll want people to be able to back up their lists with footage, but the only thing I'm going to draw a hard line on is Brody. If you're putting Brody high, I want to hear about the specific matches and the moments that brought you to that point.

I am right now legit debating who the more overrated gaijin is, Brody or Dibiase and Williams 

[El-P]

26 minutes ago, MoS said:

But let us ask the real question, guys: who is better: Ric Flair or Bret Hart?  

Bret.

2 minutes ago, MoS said:

I am right now legit debating who the more overrated gaijin is, Brody or Dibiase and Williams 

DiBiase.

Any other questions ? 

[Kadaveri]

Bruiser Brody has a whole WON Award named after him for something he wasn't even very good at.

[El-P]

4 minutes ago, Kadaveri said:

Bruiser Brody has a whole WON Award named after him for something he wasn't even very good at.

His brawling that he wasn't very good at made him one of the biggest draw of his eras and a huge star. I mean, if the argument works for Hogan... 

[KB8]

His big kneedrop also looked absolutely badass, to be fair. 

[MoS]

I mean, the award was named after him cuz he died. Otherwise, I refuse to believe anyone can look at their tag matches and think Brody was a better brawler than Hansen. Like, all the proof is RIGHT there.

[El Dragon]

Regarding the current discussion points.

 

I'm just one guy, but Rick Martel is someone who skyrocketed up the rankings, even past the point I thought he would, from his AWA and Portland work. I legitimately think he's about the best babyface I've ever seen . Love his fire, love how much he makes every single hold or move he puts on look as full effort as possible, he's a top 10-20 guy for me at present.

 

On the other hand, I came away mostly unimpressed by Curt Hennig through the AWA set. He had some great matches against Bock/Hansen, but the Hansen match was the only one I ever thought he came across as "As good as the other guy", and every time he had to lead a match he regularly let me down. Him finishing 55 last time is something that always confused me.

 

I also think a common thing this go around will be a moderate tear down of a lot of the Crockett/WCW guys that dominated last time. So much of there high placement last time seemed to be "Everyone knows they are good, everyone has seen them, and it led to some placements that were not great. (Just as a general example, I don't understand the case for Pillman over Waltman, but that's a minor example)

[JerryvonKramer]

Where did Brody finish last time? I didn't vote for him. One of the guys I've never got. As for DiBiase did his AJPW work have a particularly big rep ever? He's just kinda Hansen's partner for a bit. DiBiase in AJPW is just more of a disappointment if anything, since he's just solid and never really does much that stands out, but then again maybe he was just fitting into the hierarchy?

 

Instinctively, I don't see the Brody vs. Hogan comparison. Seems to me that Hogan > Brody is a no brainer, but might be interesting to think about. I'm going to be seeing a lot more guys like Brody by dint of the way I want to approach footage. For example, I want to watch all the Real World Tag Leagues in order. And then do more things like that.

 

I have limited patience for all this kumbaya "you're awesome no matter what" bollocks, but you already knew that.

[El-P]

14 minutes ago, MoS said:

I mean, the award was named after him cuz he died. Otherwise, I refuse to believe anyone can look at their tag matches and think Brody was a better brawler than Hansen. Like, all the proof is RIGHT there.

No one is a better anything than Hansen, so it's not fair.

[Grimmas]

16 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

 

I have limited patience for all this kumbaya "you're awesome no matter what" bollocks, but you already knew that.

Differing opinions that are rational and not hateful are the fucking best.

[El-P]

29 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

I also think a common thing this go around will be a moderate tear down of a lot of the Crockett/WCW guys that dominated last time. So much of there high placement last time seemed to be "Everyone knows they are good, everyone has seen them, and it led to some placements that were not great. (Just as a general example, I don't understand the case for Pillman over Waltman, but that's a minor example)

One thing that may play is that there will be more than 25 years of post WCW/Crockett US pro-wrestling then, and almost 35 years of post-territory US pro-wrestling. That's huge. The idea that you always have to come back to what happened 30 to 40 years ago will be such a ridiculous boomer claim (pardon the use, as a boomer myself) that there should be a clean swipe from a generation that won't feel obligated to vote for a now very distant "golden age", from which all candidates will seem as distant to them as the stuff from the 60's were to us ten years ago. (not to mention other elements like a more feminist take on things inducing the rediscovery of classic women wrestling in Japan and current, as in from the past 15 years, US stuff)

[Grimmas]

I find the opinion that wrestling peaked during your youth, and also that period is the best period ever a weird take.