Akira Hokuto vs. Eddie Guerrero

[El Dragon]

Two all timers, who are really good in there youth before exploding into all timers who could do literally anything in the ring. I’ve been doing preliminary checking through my list and it alarmed me how easy they are to imagine each other as wrestling twins in terms of how there careers progressed. Who do ya like.

[Boss Rock]

I like Eddie a lot. Terrific as a fired-up face and an absolute bastard of a heel. Got great stuff out of JBL. His NJPW run is a bit too go-go-go at times but full of fun matches. But there are definitely parts of his career (particularly early 2000's WWE) that I'm not crazy about. Hokuto was consistently great (even if she usually had better opponents to work with) and had higher peaks. The Dangerous Queen takes this.

[El Dragon]

I would just like to point out autocorrect on your phone is a bitch.

 

that is all.

[micolash]

2002-2005 Eddie is probably the best wrestler I've seen. He was the complete package during that period and was churning out great performances on a week to week basis no matter the position he was in. Moreover, he frequently had very little to work with during that run but still produced great stuff (e.g. that 2002 Edge feud had no business being as great as it was given that it involved Edge). Also, while his 1995-1998 run isn't nearly as great as 2002-2005, it's still an impressive run that bolsters his case. I love Hokuto and I'd definitely say that her 10 best matches are better than Eddie's 10 best. However, I'm going with Eddie due to the volume and variety of his great performances.

[elliott]

I went with HOkuto. Peak Eddie is awesome but I think over the course of their careers Hokuto is much more consistent, has a higher floor and a higher ceiling. There are chunks of Eddie's career that I'm not particularly interested in ever seeing again but I like Hokuto's entire career. 

[Loss]

Hokuto has the deeper case. Guerrero has the broader one. 

[ohtani's jacket]

Two workers whose peak eclipses everything else they did. A blessing and a curse, I suppose. Hokuto told deeper and more personal stories in the ring while Eddie did more caricature based stuff. One point of difference is that we don't actually have a lot of Hokuto's prime whereas we have the week-to-week TV from Eddie's runs. What we mostly consider Hokuto's prime is from commercial tapes and a smattering of television. I'm not sure off the top of my head how many handhelds are available from that era, but it would be interesting to explore how Hokuto worked house shows. I will go with Hokuto because of the depth to her matches, but Eddie was also an excellent performer. 

[Grimmas]

6 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

 we don't actually have a lot of Hokuto's prime whereas 

I wouldn't limit her prime to 92-94, but if you wanted to do that there is, at minimum 47 matches on tape form those three years. It's probably higher than that, that's just the footage I have. I find it weird saying we don't have a lot. That doesn't feel like a low number to me.

[ohtani's jacket]

I wouldn't include 1994 as her prime as she didn't wrestle many dates that year. If we consider 1993 her best year, she wrestled at least 116 matches that year, probably more, though she did miss some time due to injury. Of those matches, excluding handhelds, we have an average of 1-2 matches a month on tape. Fortunately, AJW taped all of its big shows, and this was during the height of the VHS boom, but I don't think we have as much of week-to-week Hokuto as we do Eddie. There are quite a few matches from '93 that could shed some extra light on Hokuto -- the Debbie Malenko match in full, 30 minute draws against Hasegawa and Takako, perhaps some of the tag league matches, heck even those parking lot matches they used to run.

[Loss]

So that Debbie Malenko match still hasn't aired in full on a Classics run or something? Unreal.

[Grimmas]

5 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I wouldn't include 1994 as her prime as she didn't wrestle many dates that year. If we consider 1993 her best year, she wrestled at least 116 matches that year, probably more, though she did miss some time due to injury. Of those matches, excluding handhelds, we have an average of 1-2 matches a month on tape. Fortunately, AJW taped all of its big shows, and this was during the height of the VHS boom, but I don't think we have as much of week-to-week Hokuto as we do Eddie. There are quite a few matches from '93 that could shed some extra light on Hokuto -- the Debbie Malenko match in full, 30 minute draws against Hasegawa and Takako, perhaps some of the tag league matches, heck even those parking lot matches they used to run.

First I reject her prime is that short, but whatever.

In 1993 we have at minimum 26 matches. That's over two a month. That ratio is on par with most wrestlers in history, including Eddie. Eddie probably has more in his prime, but then you are including a million nothing TV matches.

I really have no idea what point you are trying to make, yes I would love more footage of Hokuto, she's the best, but 26 matches in a year is quite a bit.

[ohtani's jacket]

I thought my point was pretty clear, but I'll elaborate for you. Hokuto, because of injuries and other factors, was not the most prolific wrestler. The company that she worked for, like most Japanese wrestling promotions, thought they could bypass the television networks that kept pushing their timeslots back by going straight to the VHS market. Therefore, the majority of the footage we have of Hokuto in her best year is from commercial VHS tapes, which is the equivalent of judging Eddie on his PPV bouts. Perhaps I was wrong in implying than more than 20-odd matches per year is normal for the average candidate. AJW TV wasn't a weekly TV show but rather a taped house show, and a lot of episodes are rendered redundant by having commercial releases later on, but I feel like we have a better understanding of Eddie in his prime runs than we do of Hokuto. Now, if you have watched the available handheld footage from 1993, or you have something to add about her comedy squash matches from that year, feel free to add something to the conversation. 

[elliott]

ugh nevermind

"Too swamped at work"

Thank god we have the discord this time. 

[Grimmas]

52 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

. Now, if you have watched the available handheld footage from 1993, or you have something to add about her comedy squash matches from that year, feel free to add something to the conversation. 

Are you serious? I should shut up about Hokuto because I have nothing to add now?

Are you really implying that watching 26 matches from one person in one year is not enough to really understand them? You also need the 4 minute Pro matches too or random house show matches?

You are the same person who are going on about rating people after only watching TV matches of them from the 50s that survived, or they only having 17 matches from them in their 20 year career, or go on and on about how this person looked so great, based on a 7 minute highlight video.

GWE is supposed to be a fun time to talk about great wrestlers and have deep discussions, not to be weird ass gate keepers based on points they made up decades ago and wont' let ago, even if they don't correlate to reality. 

[ethantyler]

Hokuto was repeatedly criticized in the past for her work rate. She'd take it easy on small house shows or whatever. I suspect that is what ohtani's jacket is hinting at (feel free to correct me here). If work rate matters that much to you, then you should dock her points for that - same goes for Misawa and Jumbo at different points of their careers.

Now, my 2 Japanese friends assure me that Hokuto is the best promo they've ever heard from Japan. That, combined with the meaningful big matches and natural charisma, puts her comfortably ahead of Eddie. And Toyota when then conversation arises. Work rate be damned. 

 

[Grimmas]

I will watch this later, but Hokuto house show footage. Make that 27 matches.

 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

2 hours ago, ethantyler said:

Hokuto was repeatedly criticized in the past for her work rate. She'd take it easy on small house shows or whatever. I suspect that is what ohtani's jacket is hinting at (feel free to correct me here). If work rate matters that much to you, then you should dock her points for that - same goes for Misawa and Jumbo at different points of their careers.

Now, my 2 Japanese friends assure me that Hokuto is the best promo they've ever heard from Japan. That, combined with the meaningful big matches and natural charisma, puts her comfortably ahead of Eddie. And Toyota when then conversation arises. Work rate be damned. 

 

For the record, I don't know what Hokuto's house show work is like. I just think watching it would give us a clearer picture of her peak years. 

[Kadaveri]

To the best of my knowledge we have 33 Akira Hokuto matches on tape for 1993. A lot of this stuff aired in the 00s on AJW Classics either completely new or more complete versions than the TV at the time:

1. Jan 04 - Akira Hokuto vs. Debbie Malenko (clipped, version on AJW Classics #67 is a bit longer but still not the full match)
2. Jan 11 - Akira Hokuto & Yumiko Hotta vs. Toshiyo Yamada & Manami Toyota (handheld)
3. Jan 24 - Akira Hokuto & Etsuko Mita & Mima Shimoda vs. Harley Saito & Eagle Sawai & Miki Handa
4. Feb 12 - Akira Hokuto, Bull Nakano & La Diabolica defeat Esther Moreno, KAORU & Xochitl Hamada (CMLL)
5. Apr 02 - Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori
6. Apr 11 - Akira Hokuto & Aja Kong vs. Shinobu Kandori & Eagle Sawai
7. Apr 16 - Akira Hokuto & Yumiko Hotta vs Bull Nakano & Aja Kong (handheld)
8. Apr 18 - Akira Hokuto vs. Sakie Hasegawa (handheld)
9. Apr 20 - Akira Hokuto & Suzuka Minami vs. Toshiyo Yamada & Kyoko Inoue (clipped)
10. Apr 24 - Akira Hokuto & Bull Nakano vs. Takako Inoue & Toshiyo Yamada (clipped)
11. May 03 - Akira Hokuto vs. Toshiyo Yamada
12. May 04 - Akira Hokuto & Aja Kong vs. Bull Nakano & Kyoko Inoue (handheld)
13. May 08 - Akira Hokuto & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Yumiko Hotta & Manami Toyota
14. May 14 - Akira Hokuto & Mima Shimoda vs. Yumiko Hotta & Manami Toyota
15. May 19 - Akira Hokuto vs. Etsuko Mita (handheld)
16. Jun 03 - Akira Hokuto & Kyoko Inoue vs. Aja Kong & Bull Nakano
17. Jun 11 - Akira Hokuto vs. Kurenai Yasha
18. Jul 04 - Akira Hokuto vs. Suzuka Minami
19. Jul 26 - Akira Hokuto & Suzuka Minami vs. Yumiko Hotta & Toshiyo Yamada (shown in full on AJW Classics #75)
20. Aug 05 - Akira Hokuto vs. Harley Saito (shown in full on AJW Classics #76)
21. Aug 21 - Akira Hokuto vs. Manami Toyota
22. Aug 21 - Akira Hokuto vs. Yumiko Hotta
23. Aug 25 - Akira Hokuto vs. Rumi Kazama
24. Sep 05 - Akira Hokuto vs. Numacchi
25. Sep 05 - Akira Hokuto & Suzuka Minami vs. Yumiko Hotta & Takako Inoue
26. Oct 09 - Akira Hokuto vs. Aja Kong
27. Nov 09 - Akira Hokuto vs. Rumi Kazama (LLPW)
28. Nov 12 - Akira Hokuto & Manami Toyota vs. Aja Kong & Sakie Hasegawa
29. Nov 18 - Akira Hokuto vs. Mayumi Ozaki (JWP)
30. Nov 28 - Akira Hokuto & Suzuka Minami & Etsuko Mita & Mima Shimoda vs. Dynamite Kansai & Devil Masami & Mayumi Ozaki & Plum Mariko
31. Dec 06 - Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori
32. Dec 10 - Akira Hokuto & Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada & Kyoko Inoue
33. Dec 10 - Akira Hokuto & Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada & Kyoko Inoue (this is a different match to #32)

There may be a few more handhelds out there as I haven't put much effort into finding those. But anyway, I think that's more than adequate sampling of a wrestler to find out how good they were that year. 33 matches (most in full), 25 different individual opponents including a few matches outside her own promotion. It's way too much to just equate to only watching someone's big PPV matches and I don't think it's that different to what we have of Eddie really. For example for Eddie's 2004 we have 44 televised matches (including PPVs) with 21 different individual opponents, and Eddie's TV matches got cut up by advert breaks more than Hokuto's did.

[Microstatistics]

I'll likely have these two at x and x+1 in my Top 10. As people have alluded to, their case (i.e., ungodly peaks but stop-and-start careers) is remarkably similar. I'll go Eddie by the finest of margins for his versatility. 

[funkdoc]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:42 PM, Cien Caras said:

General observation on GWE so far is that things tend to get very weird when people talk about women’s wrestling, and also that joshi seems very overrepresented in the conversation right now. These threads read like message board threads from 20 years ago.

Part of this, i think, is that joshi was largely an afterthought in 2016 so some people who were around then didn't do the deep dives that the tape traders had done in the 90s-2000s.  We have people on this board saying they hadn't seen Dump Matsumoto's prime until this started - what's old is new again, in some cases.

We also have joshi making a noticeable comeback business-wise right now, the biggest it's been since the interpromotional era.  So we might be seeing some altogether new fans come in as this goes on.