Workers who never had their best match

[El-P]

I was listening to a recent Raven interview (after seeing him popping up on IMPACT) and he made quite an interesting comment about his own career : "I never had my best match". Which of course can seem absurd since de facto, one of his matches had to be the best of all the matches he worked. But what he means is that he never had the best match he potentially could have had. And that's quite a thing to say I thought, in a time where everything is deemed GOAT every two seconds.

And so I was thinking, who are other pro-wrestlers who "never had their best match" ? I can think of many for obvious reasons (died too early or having way too much health/addiction issues), but as far as guys with an entire, well rounded, life-long career, this becomes a much deeper question.

[funkdoc]

Don Muraco would be an obvious one for this board...maybe Booker T?

[KawadaSmile]

Scott Steiner feels like an appropriate answer, too. Has great tag team stuff, but once he has his singles career, Big Poppa Pump kicks in rather soon and while the character is amazing, he just becomes too much of a bloated mess. 

Another example would be Jason Jordan. Excellent tag wrestler, was basically pushed to the main event scene and was figuring things out pretty quickly. Then he has a career ending injury. Still makes me so fucking sad.

[MoS]

I swear I am not trolling: Roman Reigns. 

[KawadaSmile]

5 minutes ago, MoS said:

I swear I am not trolling: Roman Reigns. 

I see it, but only because his ceiling is really fucking high. 

Most of his incredible 2014-2017 run saw him have bangers with just about everyone, but his presentation outside of matches was such that it sometimes hampered the big fight feel , which one can say is the opposite of what happens now - the big fight feel is there, and the match quality while still being great, are not AS great due to Roman and his opponent already having the crowd where they wanted.

[MoS]

10 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

I see it, but only because his ceiling is really fucking high. 

I KNEW you would object, but I swear, my reasoning is also this! I feel like in an environment that was more supportive and suited to his strengths and didn't fuck up his booking the way WWE did, he would genuinely be a GOAT contender. His athleticism is ridiculous, and he has also shown a brilliant ability to grasp pro wrestling concepts on his way to the top.

 

Honestly, the biggest failure of Vince McMahon's creativity is not easily making Roman one of the top babyfaces of all time. He had none of Cena's weaknesses, his ceiling was so much higher. As it is, he never came close to reaching that, imo, as for me, undoubtedly, Cena will be comfortably above him now in GWE rankings cuz of what actually happened, as opposed to what the potential was.

[DMJ]

I think Roman Reigns has too much upper shelf stuff for me to see him as not having had his best match. Both Fastlane matches against Daniel Bryan, vs. Lesnar at WM31, some of the Shield six-tags, his two big matches against AJ in 2016, I remember at least one of the Strowman matches being really fun...When all is said and done, it'll be very easy to list 5-10 matches of his that represent the best of modern WWE.

Booker T is more what I was thinking. The King Booker run was my favorite of his, but none of the matches from that run jump out at me. He had some good-to-great matches with Benoit, sure, but, again, there's not one specific match that I think is a "masterpiece" or really even close to one. 

I'll put Drew McIntyre's name on the list, though. He's had some good-to-great matches, sure, but not a single match that I think you could point to as being a Drew McIntyre Clinic or masterpiece.

[Dale Wolfe]

1 hour ago, KawadaSmile said:

Scott Steiner feels like an appropriate answer, too. Has great tag team stuff, but once he has his singles career, Big Poppa Pump kicks in rather soon and while the character is amazing, he just becomes too much of a bloated mess. 

V Samoa Joe at Slammiversary 2006 is the best of his second act by miles but i do completely agree

[KawadaSmile]

2 minutes ago, MoS said:

I KNEW you would object, but I swear, my reasoning is also this!

I mean, I *am* a huge Roman Reigns mark. The moment you mentioned him, I thought "yeah that makes sense".

[Dale Wolfe]

William Regal is my shout. Unbelievable talent and some great matches but got to think his problems ruined his peak 

I love the master edit of his worldwide "cup" matches against Flair, wish there'd been a good epic 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Did he explain why he never had his best match? Perhaps he simply wasn't capable of it. He certainly had the opportunities. 

There are a lot of great workers that come to mind (Owen Hart, Steve Regal, Arn Anderson), who I don't believe were capable of more. Would I be surprised to discover a great match of theirs I haven't seen? No. Would I be surprised to discover their best match ever? You betcha. It's easy to imagine a mindblowing Tito Santana classic, but anybody can have mindblowing classics in your imagination. The reality is that they weren't  having mindblowing classics and weren't likely to ever have them. Maybe if some promoter somewhere booked them as the centerpiece of the promotion, or they wrestled in a magical void where there were no limits to what they could accomplish, but a lot of great workers that are technically great can't work big enough to have the great of heralded matches we're talking about. I'm not sure you'd even want them do. Regal working a small match against another great worker or working a big match against Shawn Michaels? Which would you prefer to see? 

[El-P]

Not really. It's a pretty deep question that goes way beyond "opportunities". As far as being able to, of course he was. Everyone can have their "best match", whatever it is for each different worker (not a matter of scale, the best match of Barry Horowitz may have happened for him, as far as we know).

Regal absolutely fits the bill to me, and maybe he would even agree (considering his self-deprecating tendencies, I would not be surprised). Another one that comes to mind is Randy Orton. 

[sek69]

In an alternate timeframe, the I Quit  match was only Magnum TA's kickstart to fame and he ends up having absolute classics with Ric Flair. 

[Reel]

2 hours ago, DMJ said:

I'll put Drew McIntyre's name on the list, though. He's had some good-to-great matches, sure, but not a single match that I think you could point to as being a Drew McIntyre Clinic or masterpiece.

He has a match with Oney Lorcan early in his NXT run that might fit this description.

For me, it might be Eddie Kingston. I know everybody loves him now, but I still don't think he's ever had a truly great match that was him firing on all cylinders.

[ohtani's jacket]

10 hours ago, El-P said:

Not really. It's a pretty deep question that goes way beyond "opportunities". As far as being able to, of course he was. Everyone can have their "best match", whatever it is for each different worker (not a matter of scale, the best match of Barry Horowitz may have happened for him, as far as we know).

Regal absolutely fits the bill to me, and maybe he would even agree (considering his self-deprecating tendencies, I would not be surprised). Another one that comes to mind is Randy Orton. 

Id like to know what Raven envisions as his best match, as I fail to see how he didn’t get the opportunities in ECW or ROH. I can only imagine his ideal is either something more than a brawl or an impossibly high standard. Does Raven have a self-depreciating view of his own work, or does he have an over-inflated opinion of himself as a worker? "I never had my best match" could mean a lot of things. 

It’s hard for me to imagine Regal having better matches than he did. I wonder how exactly they were supposed to be better. Seems like wishful thinking. 

[MoS]

@ohtani's jacket love having your input here, you are absolutely great, but I also need you to account for New Zealand's spineless showing against England in this test cricket summer lol. You guys are the world champs, this was not supposed to happen. The last thing I need in my life right now is England winning a world championship.

[EnviousStupid]

What even are Raven's best matches? It's easy for a wrestler to say they never had a match where their potential and ceiling was fully realized (arguably no wrestler does), but I'm not even sure of the quality we're working with here. 

3 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

It's easy to imagine a mindblowing Tito Santana classic, but anybody can have mindblowing classics in your imagination. The reality is that they weren't  having mindblowing classics and weren't likely to ever have them. Maybe if some promoter somewhere booked them as the centerpiece of the promotion, or they wrestled in a magical void where there were no limits to what they could accomplish, but a lot of great workers that are technically great can't work big enough to have the great of heralded matches we're talking about.

Just in regards to Tito, he does have a match with Bockwinkel in 81 that I'd consider a classic and one of the best from around that time.

[The Thread Killer]

Shelton Benjamin? Could have been, should have been…but didn’t.

[cad]

5 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

There are a lot of great workers that come to mind (Owen Hart, Steve Regal, Arn Anderson), who I don't believe were capable of more[...]The reality is that they weren't  having mindblowing classics and weren't likely to ever have them. Maybe if some promoter somewhere booked them as the centerpiece of the promotion, or they wrestled in a magical void where there were no limits to what they could accomplish, but a lot of great workers that are technically great can't work big enough to have the great of heralded matches we're talking about. I'm not sure you'd even want them do.

Well wait a minute. Owen Hart DID have a classic, two if you count the match that got five stars from Meltzer. It was a match in which he was the foil, and he was with a worker who did chase that kind of memorable epic, but he fits in with that Arn Anderson good hand archetype and he really did deliver something mindblowing. I don't see how it's a stretch to suggest that Arn too could have found himself as part of something like that, had his career shaken out slightly differently.

I get the point that some workers have the mentality that lends itself to classics and others don't, but when you think of all the matches considered classics, either by you or by wrestling fans at large, how many of them are great worker vs great worker, or big match worker vs big match worker? Plenty of them feature lesser workers, or talented, businesslike workers putting on the performance of a lifetime. Nothing outlandish about wondering why it couldn't have happened with a certain favorite. Not that Raven fits that bill in any way.

[Big Pete]

If I'm thinking of the right interview, the context was that Raven can't watch modern wrestling because it just reminds him that he never got to be a top guy in a top promotion and it breaks his heart that he was never in a position to have his best match. However he was struggling to articulate his feelings on the matter so he didn't provide what his criteria would be.

For mine an interesting case study is Wrestlemania III. Feel free to argue the toss, but I'd have no problem with calling Savage/Steamboat Savage's best match. High profile show, best performance of the night and if you ask the most casual wrestling fan what Macho Man's best match was, they'll typically say that. However, I wouldn't call that Steamboat's best match because there were other instances where he showed better fire and command in the ring.

Orton maybe the best example. I'd say the match that most fans put over is the Backlash 2004 match, but if you go back and watch it, it's essentially Mick's match and Randy's big contribution is the RKO. I'd dare say that Randy's best match was against Seth Rollins at Wrestlemania XXXI if only because it had the best rendition of the RKO and all his performances essentially boil down to that one move.

 

[El-P]

8 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Id like to know what Raven envisions as his best match, as I fail to see how he didn’t get the opportunities in ECW or ROH. I can only imagine his ideal is either something more than a brawl or an impossibly high standard. Does Raven have a self-depreciating view of his own work, or does he have an over-inflated opinion of himself as a worker? I never had my best match could mean a lot of things. 

He regrets not having been pushed as a top guy in WWE, as he feels he could/should (and I agree). But again, that doesn't mean he would have had his best match in this context, in the end. You're reducing what you think his best match may have been by saying "I can only imagine", which shows that you are putting your *own* idea of what Raven's best match could be above what it actually could be, which is someone no one, including Raven, knows. 

8 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I never had my best match could mean a lot of things. 

Which is why it's a fascinating question and why I asked it on the board. In essence, I don't really care about what Raven meant for himself. The idea of a guy who never had his "best match" (putting aside like I said the obvious of a career cut short by injury, illness or death) is quite fascinating, because it goes against the very idea of rating matches in some sort of order from the best to the worst, as the top match actually still isn't the best, a best match that never actually happened. 

[El-P]

3 hours ago, Big Pete said:

Orton maybe the best example. I'd say the match that most fans put over is the Backlash 2004 match, but if you go back and watch it, it's essentially Mick's match and Randy's big contribution is the RKO.

I thought exactly the same thing when I asked myself about Orton.

Then again, is having your best match necessarily about being in command or expressing your own style ? Maybe having your best match for someone in particular would be being the greatest dance partner you can be. 

[ohtani's jacket]

9 hours ago, MoS said:

@ohtani's jacket love having your input here, you are absolutely great, but I also need you to account for New Zealand's spineless showing against England in this test cricket summer lol. You guys are the world champs, this was not supposed to happen. The last thing I need in my life right now is England winning a world championship.

I don't think we were meant to do much against England were we? It's not really the same side that won the Test championship. We had a couple of good sessions. England played a lot of positive cricket thanks to their New Zealand coach and captain  Anyway, you lot get a turn now. 

[sek69]

4 hours ago, Big Pete said:

I'd dare say that Randy's best match was against Seth Rollins at Wrestlemania XXXI if only because it had the best rendition of the RKO and all his performances essentially boil down to that one move.

I wouldn't argue, especially in terms of singles matches, but RK Bro was having some bangers with the Street Profits and Usos in that last run. 

[ohtani's jacket]

5 hours ago, cad said:

Well wait a minute. Owen Hart DID have a classic, two if you count the match that got five stars from Meltzer. It was a match in which he was the foil, and he was with a worker who did chase that kind of memorable epic, but he fits in with that Arn Anderson good hand archetype and he really did deliver something mindblowing. I don't see how it's a stretch to suggest that Arn too could have found himself as part of something like that, had his career shaken out slightly differently.

I get the point that some workers have the mentality that lends itself to classics and others don't, but when you think of all the matches considered classics, either by you or by wrestling fans at large, how many of them are great worker vs great worker, or big match worker vs big match worker? Plenty of them feature lesser workers, or talented, businesslike workers putting on the performance of a lifetime. Nothing outlandish about wondering why it couldn't have happened with a certain favorite. Not that Raven fits that bill in any way.

Yeah, Owen had the Bret match, but if he'd been a more ambitious worker, I doubt he would have felt it was *his* match, or the best he could do. It's possible that Arn could have had that sort of match, but so could everyone theoretically. If you look at Arn's career, I think it's pretty clear that it was unlikely to happen.