Race vs. Angle

[Al]

...come to think of it, has anyone ever done an hour ironman tag match? I don't mean an oldschool type 2/3 falls match which goes long, I mean an real ironman tag. Seems like it could be kinda cool if you could get two really good teams for it.

WWF @ Montreal, Quebec - Forum - August 4, 1989

Tim Horner defeated Richard Charland (sub. for Greg Valentine)

Dino Bravo pinned Jim Neidhart

The Bushwhackers defeated the Powers of Pain via count-out

Barry Windham defeated Paul Roma

The Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant in under 1 minute

Dusty Rhodes defeated the Big Bossman via disqualification

Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Jacques & Raymond Rougeau in a 60-minute Marathon Match, 3-2 in overtime; fall #1: the Rougeaus won; fall #2: the Rougeaus won; fall #3: the Rockers won at the 48 minute mark; fall #4: the Rockers won at the 57 minute mark; fall #5: the Rockers won when Michaels reversed an inside cradle by Raymond, putting Jannetty

[Bix]

They also ran Islanders-Strike Force in '87. Graham's site doesn't have any results for them but they ran at least one that I've seen local promos for.

 

I wish both were taped but I'm guessing they weren't unless the WWF decided to tape them since they were new experimental matches. The Rockers & Rougeaus were able to fill about half an hour well with some really hilariously awesome stalling in their London match so I'm intrigued by what they'd do for an hour and I'm curious how The Islanders and Strike Force would work it since their regular house show matches were super fast paced.

[jdw]

Considering how bad those teams were going 20+, that could be an exceptionally bad match to watch if it existed on tape.

 

John

[Bix]

Rockers-Rougeaus?

 

Keep in mind, I'm an Austin Idol fan but I love the London match. It's not remarkable after the stalling, but the stallng is so well-done, funny and heating up the crowd, that it really brings the whole match up a few notches past where it would be if it was just the work contained in the last two thirds. Plus, keep in mind that it was the 2nd match (1st televised) of the WWF's live debut in England. I can't think of a better way to introduce the crowd to American house show wrestling than a formula tag match with lots of bullshit comedy that's different from the breed of comedy wrestling that they were used to.

 

I know that you really disliked the match but it seemed like a case of your version of "good wrestling" being narrow. You wrote at TOA:

 

They then do nothing for the next *six* minutes. Unless not locking up, no strikes, no holds and no moves is one's idea of "something". They work dueling kip-ups, flips into the ring, and flips off the ropes before Jacques gets crutched while going up to match Shawn's backflip off the top. Six minutes of jerking off. I now understand how these teams were able to go "20+ minutes".

It was effective bullshit comedy stalling that got the crowd going and entertained a lot of people who revisited it as part of a stupid internet poll. You may have disliked it but I was surprised how you completely dismissed it, as you usually acknowledge when something's effective even if you didn't enjoy it.

[tekcop]

Michaels talks about doing comedy stuff to fill up the first half of their marathon matches with the Rougeaus in his book.

[shoe]

I would have liked the Rockers/Rougeaus match a lot better if we went from the stalling to a real bar burner of a contest that we didn't get. I thought when Rose did the stalling with the Rockers in the AWA it was 100% better.

[jdw]

You may have disliked it but I was surprised how you completely dismissed it, as you usually acknowledge when something's effective even if you didn't enjoy it.

Ted vs Savage in a cage got great heat in MSG, and entertained *more* people "who revisited it as part of a stupid internet poll" than the Brothers vs. Rockers:

 

21. 06/25/88 Randy Savage vs Ted DiBiase

34. 10/10/89 Fabulous Rougeau Bros vs Rockers

 

Yet you disagreed with those people rather strongly on your own ballot:

 

5. 10/10/89 Fabulous Rougeau Bros vs Rockers

54. 06/25/88 Randy Savage vs Ted DiBiase

 

I disagree with the people who think the Brothers vs Rockers was a good match. We both disagree with how a lot of people looked at various matches on that set.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "a few notches". The balance of the match is as bad as the other match between the teams, which you had down at #60. If that opening shitty six minutes of the match is the difference between the #5 match on that set and the #60 match on the set, I'm pretty amazed.

 

As far as "too narrow", that's a wonderful cliche to toss at folks who don't agree with your opinions. I'm too narrow to appreciate the greatness of the shitty opening of that match as much as you do. Your too narrow to appreciate the greatness of Bob's goofy, awkward shitty wrestling as much as I do. It's a circular argument that goes no where.

 

John

[Bix]

(I apologize if some of this is kinda rambling...)

 

I never said that Backlund sucked. I said that I was in the middle of the "he sucked" and "he ruled" camps. I can see why people enjoy his matches and also why people think he was irredeemably bad. He was certainly effective (which really goes without saying). The stalling in the Rockers-Rougeaus was effective at the very least, with the crowd stomping in unison at the end and incredibly heated once the "actual wrestling" starts.

 

Bullshit comedy stalling has been a major part of American wrestling forever, especially in house show matches. It's a bit narrow to see dismiss it completely, when it was not only effective in this case, but also makes a lot of sense in the context of the first American tag match (a sub-genre which often relies heavily on intangible bullshit) on British soil.

 

As far as the stalling segment bringing up the quality of the match substantially, what can I say? I'm a huge fan of Tennessee wrestling, both for the action it brings and the bullshit used to spice it up. This match featured such an epic, effective, and funny (IMO) bullshit segment that I loved it, even if the "action" after the bullshit wasn't as great as, say, Islanders vs Strike Force or North/South vs Briscos. The heat of the crowd in a new big market seeing this variety of wrestling live for the first time helped, too. While Sheik-Slaughter is an incredibly well put together match, it wouldn't be what it was without the insane level of heat that it had, an incredibly loud sustained roar that sounded like a 20 minute entrance pop for Hogan or whoever.

 

Back to bullshit: The '80s Memphis set looks like it will have a studio match between Buddy Landel and Freddy. Freddie is Tommy Gilbert in full Freddy Krueger gear as a ridiculously animated kids babyface (As I said in my nomination post, you know Lawler's booking when there are movie monsters and one of them is a babyface based on a child molesting character). The match features 6 minutes of bullshit before they lock up and there are 2 bumps, both of which are in the last minute of a 9 minute match. The crowd goes progressively more and more nuts as the match goes on, and it was thoroughly enjoyable for me and Phil at least. It isn't going to be for everyone, but it was incredibly effective bullshit that deserves to make a set based on how it really embodies that aspect of Memphis wrestling.

 

As far as effectiveness: I personally didn't like the Kobashi-Sasaki dome match very much, but I couldn't really find fault with it, as was exactly the right match for that show in front of that crowd. I really didn't enjoy it much outside of the crowd, but I had no complaints.

[jdw]

I never said that Backlund sucked. I said that I was in the middle of the "he sucked" and "he ruled" camps. I can see why people enjoy his matches and also why people think he was irredeemably bad. He was certainly effective (which really goes without saying).

I didn't say you thought Backlund sucked. What I was saying is that you don't appreciate the greatness of Backlund as much as I do, while I don't appreciate the greatness of the Brothers as much as you do.

 

The stalling in the Rockers-Rougeaus was effective at the very least, with the crowd stomping in unison at the end and incredibly heated once the "actual wrestling" starts.

I've seen the fans cream themselves for nothing at the Sportitorium for nothing as well. Simple he for inactivity doesn't mean the inactivity is great work.

 

Bullshit comedy stalling has been a major part of American wrestling forever, especially in house show matches. It's a bit narrow to see dismiss it completely, when it was not only effective in this case, but also makes a lot of sense in the context of the first American tag match (a sub-genre which often relies heavily on intangible bullshit) on British soil.

Juice has been a part of American Wrestling since before anyone currently active was born... well, maybe Abby if he's still working. But juice for juice's sake, kind of tossed out there because it's what Flair or Dusty does, even if it gets some form of heat/pop doesn't mean it's good work.

 

As far as the stalling segment bringing up the quality of the match substantially, what can I say? I'm a huge fan of Tennessee wrestling, both for the action it brings and the bullshit used to spice it up. This match featured such an epic, effective, and funny (IMO) bullshit segment that I loved it, even if the "action" after the bullshit wasn't as great as, say, Islanders vs Strike Force or North/South vs Briscos. The heat of the crowd in a new big market seeing this variety of wrestling live for the first time helped, too. While Sheik-Slaughter is an incredibly well put together match, it wouldn't be what it was without the insane level of heat that it had, an incredibly loud sustained roar that sounded like a 20 minute entrance pop for Hogan or whoever.

I just don't see the bullshit at the start of the match as "epic". I see it as jerking off.

 

Break down the epic nature of it and why it's the best bullshit comedy stalling of the 80s in the WWF. I mean... it had to be to carry an otherwise crap ass match to #6 for you.

 

*snip example of another match*

 

Again, break down why *this* match was great, warranting #6 among WWF matches in the 80s. I really don't care if someone else in another fed did it better.

 

As far as effectiveness: I personally didn't like the Kobashi-Sasaki dome match very much, but I couldn't really find fault with it, as was exactly the right match for that show in front of that crowd. I really didn't enjoy it much outside of the crowd, but I had no complaints.

Bored the fuck out of me.

 

Did it work for the crowd?

 

Sure.

 

But what match in the 80s worked the most for it's crowd?

 

Hogan vs Andre at Mania III. It draw the fans in. Gave them the handful of spots they wanted. Gave them the finish they wanted, but weren't at all sure would come.

 

I'm guessing that matches was #101 on the DVDVR List since it didn't make the cut.

 

Setting that aside...

 

I don't mind good comedy in wrestling. I've pretty consistently pointed to what I thought was good stooging and theatrical crap in the 120+ matches that I've talked about, and when I've thought it was weak. That we don't like bullshit comedy to the same degree means... what? You recommend the match highly was one of the elite WWF matches of the era. I think it's dog shit. People can watch it and make up their own minds.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

What about the comedy is "jerking off"? If it gets the crowd going and that was the purpose of it, it would seem to be self-evident that it wasn't masturbatory. Are you really arguing that this was just an example of four guys fucking off for their own personal shits and giggles or am I misreading the usage of the term "jerking off" here?

 

Match itself I find to be decent. The opening comedy is a lot of fun and distinguishes it from 80's tags, but I wouldn't throw it on my top ten from the 80's, because it doesn't really go anywhere after that.

[Loss]

John, is your argument against the match also one against stalling in general, or do you think this was just poorly-done stalling? Just wanting to make sure I understand your point. I acknowledge that you're not a fan of the match.

 

Also, did you like the redneck karate part of the Midnight Express/Southern Boys match at Bash '90?

[Bix]

What about the comedy is "jerking off"? If it gets the crowd going and that was the purpose of it, it would seem to be self-evident that it wasn't masturbatory. Are you really arguing that this was just an example of four guys fucking off for their own personal shits and giggles or am I misreading the usage of the term "jerking off" here?

I'm with Dylan here. This isn't Hall & Nash finding ways to amuse themselves while "putting people over" or any other jokes at the expense of the opponents/match. It was done to make the heels look like goofs and make the babyfaces look smart, and the crowd got into it. How is that masturbatory?

 

Match itself I find to be decent. The opening comedy is a lot of fun and distinguishes it from 80's tags, but I wouldn't throw it on my top ten from the 80's, because it doesn't really go anywhere after that.

Top 10 WWF, which isn't exactly top 10 overall aside from 2 matches.

 

If we made a better go of the WWF set with bunch of Tito-Valentine matches and whatnot, would it probably get pushed back? Sure, and I bet that the errata set with help do that awesome, awesome feud (rediscovered by many a 24/7 viewer as they seem to show at least one match between them each month) justice. But on this set, with the comedy stalling being unique for the sample (much of the better regarded stuff was anti-WWF like the Memphisy stalling here, the more "southern" brawling in Sheik-Slaughter and Windham-Murdoch, a very Mid-Atlantic tag in North/South-Briscos, the snugness Bret-Dynamite, the unique pacing of Jake-Steamboat from Boston, the fast pace of Islanders-Strike Force) it stood out and carried the match higher for me.

 

As far as John's post goes...

 

When I used the word "epic," I meant strictly that it was epic as far as bullshit sections of matches go, not that it's an "epic" match. I'd consider Landel-Freddy, Tracy Smothers vs Jamie Dundee from IWA Mid-South, the Lawler-Mantell (which has an extended referee frisk segment at Mantell's urging where Lawler comes close to getting naked to show that he's not carrying objects) AWA title match that's been nominated, and the Lawler-Idol cage match as having epic bullshit, even if the former 2 matches aren't necessarily "epic matches" in the way that the latter 2 are.

 

As far as it "not being good work," well, pretty much by definition, it is. Working, at least the original wrestler definition of it (as opposed to the newsletter reading fan version that's taken more of a "overall match quality" meaning) is what the wrestlers do to get the proper crowd reaction. This isn't a case of the Von Erichs getting rock star pops that lasted throughout the match or Hogan-Andre to an extent (the match would've had super heat regardless of what they did though Andre's facial expressions were super and Hogan was Hogan in working the crowd), it's 4 wrestlers building more and more heat through what they did in the ring. You've used the crowd reaction as part of boosting Backlund (who I certainly appreciate, I mean the Hogan match from Philly is an elite performance for starters) in the past (though moreso as part of disputing the claims that he was booed heavily in the latter parts of his title reign, it was still showing how he was effective as part of your argument).

 

Why can't you just admit this this was effective at the very least and not be disgusted that someone liked it? I may not like ROH nowadays but they're working the right style for their audience's enjoyment, the improvement that I've begged for at times is stuff that they've done in the past that the fans ate up but got abandoned (the booking & wrestling style of the ROH vs CZW feud). Complaints about ROH fans are geared towards attitude and behavior, not their taste in wrestling (Rob Naylor loves ROH. People love Rob Naylor because he's not a blithering idiot). God forbid that somebody be drawn to a flawed favorite and become a Flair Fan. Oh, and if I've ever said anything contradicting this, don't bother looking for it, as my opinions have morphed over time. I'm allowed to do that.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I love Naylor because someday I'll catch him and he'll have give me his pot of gold, actually.

[JerryvonKramer]

Sorry for the bump, but this thread is fan-fucking-tastic.

[NintendoLogic]

I thought of this thread while watching some 70s All Japan last night. In Baba/Robinson, the gutwrench suplex is treated as a killer move every time it's teased and is never actually landed because Baba fights like his life depends on it every time Robinson goes for it. In Race/Jumbo, the gutwrench suplex is a throwaway spot that gets a one count.