The greatest things ever written on wrestling message boards

[Guest The 3H's]

I probably could spend some time on why I like the People's Elbow and didn't much care for Angle's Ankle Lock. But I'm willing to cop that the Ankle Lock was over, people sold their ass off for it, and fans bought it

Go for it.

[jdw]

I'll pass.

 

 

John

[Jingus]

I remember getting into an epic-length dumbass argument with Coey a long time back just because I said I thought Taue's chokeslam looked like shit. He kept coming back with the "ESTABLISHED CREDIBLE FINISHER~!" line and just could not understand that I understood that, and was merely criticizing the aesthetics. Much like how Rock often barely even made contact on the people's elbow.

[Resident Evil]

A lot of the pop for the People's Elbow came from it being a comedy spot. Similar to the worm at the time.

[sek69]

I remember getting into an epic-length dumbass argument with Coey

I think a lot of people are guilty of that....

[Indikator]

I remember getting into an epic-length dumbass argument with Coey a long time back just because I said I thought Taue's chokeslam looked like shit. He kept coming back with the "ESTABLISHED CREDIBLE FINISHER~!" line and just could not understand that I understood that, and was merely criticizing the aesthetics. Much like how Rock often barely even made contact on the people's elbow.

The thing about wrestling is that you do get into these kind of arguments. Wrestling is ambivalent and open to interpretation, so differing opinions will always happen. I wouldn't call the resulting arguments per se stupid

[Bix]

tamalie talks about outlaw groups:

An outlaw was more than just a group that was outisde the NWA, AWA, and WWWF. Outlaw promotions generally ran against established promotions in towns that those established groups claimed as their own and theoretically had exclusive rights to under the established pro wrestling order. In those disputed towns the outlaws tended to have the weaker TV station (the UHF you could only pick up in the right weather) and a secondary arena (running a roller rink, school gym or auction barn instead of the local Civic Coliseum).

 

I don't consider the NWF to have been an outlaw. They had connections with the big offices and used lots of guys who worked elsewhere before, during, and after their association with the NWF without any political ramifications. It was the only game in town in its markets, at least on a major league level, and ran the big arenas. It was a different deal than the ICW group owned by Angelo Poffo in Kentucky which was a true outlaw.

 

ICW ran turf in Kentucky and Illinois that was claimed by the Memphis and Indianapolis promotions. It made grandstand challenges designed to embarrass wrestlers from its better established rivals, usually guys like Lawler and Dundee, used wrestlers who were less in demand elsewhere (blacklisting is going a bit far, for the most part, since someone capable of drawing or who had the right connections could get work in other promotions) and generally ran secondary venues in the disputed markets.

 

...

 

My take is the blacklisting thing is a bit overblown. If you could work and had the right connections, someone would hire you. I'd buy though that certain guys were kept out of specific promotions for reasons other than business. However there was generally always someplace else to go. Most of the guys who claimed they were blackballed out the business entirely tended to be marginal wrestlers who made political enemies.

 

...

 

Some outlaw groups from the old days:

 

- Universal Wrestling. This outfit ran against The Sheik's Detroit based territory around 1975 and 1976 and mainly consisted of guys who walked out on Farhat due to disputes over pay and bookings.

 

- IWA. This promotion had two phases. In 1975 and early 1976 it attempted to be a national promotion and got TV in most of the major markets. When that failed and Eddie Einhorn and TVS withdrew, what was left of the group based itself in Winston-Salem, NC and ran as a local outlaw against JCP until closing in 1977.

 

- Phil Golden ran a group in Kentucky around 1971-72 in opposition to Nick Gulas' Nashville office.

 

- Greater St. Louis Wrestling. Larry Matysik opened up a group against the NWA office which had passed to Bob Geigel and Verne Gagne after Sam Muchnick retired. This group closed up when the WWF entered St. Louis and changed the game in late 1983.

 

- Sunbelt Wrestling. This was a Jacksonville based effort to run against the Florida office in 1981.

 

- Southwest (sort of). Southwest had some bad blood with the Dallas office and was not an NWA member, but booked talent into Houston for Paul Boesch for a while and had some mainstream talent. After Boesch split with this office to go with Watts, Southwest tried to run Houston in opposition although even afterwards it had little trouble getting recognizable talent.

 

- Big Bear. For years Dave McKigney's Ontario group was an outlaw, bucking the system against the Toronto office.

 

- Superstar Championship Wrestling. Was this truly an outlaw? I've gotten the impression they butted heads with Portland and Vancouver over Seattle, but it seemed like a mainstream group.

 

- San Francisco (Shire). When Roy Shire opened up in San Francisco, he was an outlaw, which is why this group didn't join the NWA until the late 1960s. Joe Malcewicz was the NWA's San Francisco promoter, but he didn't have or want TV while Shire used it well. This battle lasted about a year, but was over long before then. After killing off the established promotion, Shire's company was effectively part of the establishment.

 

- UWA. Lou Thesz had fallen out with Nick Gulas and opened up this opposition promotion in response during 1976. He used a lot of guys who had worked for Nick in the past or who became better known wrestlers later.

 

- All Star Wrestling. Bob Roop, Bob Orton Jr., Ron Garvin, Boris Malenko, and Ron Wright broke off from Ron Fuller's Southeastern group in mid 1979 after accusing Ron of skimming gate money. They opened this group to compete with him in Knoxville and the surrounding towns. The war got so bitter that it killed the town. Fuller sold out to the Georgia office and left. The outlaws had to merge with ICW and then abandon Knoxville in favor of working Poffo's main circuit.

 

- All South. This promotion launched in November of 1972 and closed about two years later in 1974. It was born out of a dispute between the owners of the NWA affiliated office in Georgia and Ann Gunkel, the widow of Ray Gunkel who had been their managing partner. Most of the wrestlers went with Deep South, but Columbus/Macon promoter Fred Ward's decision to stick with the NWA promotion tipped the scales against the rebel group early on in the battle.

 

- Atlanta was pretty fertile ground for outlaws. As was mentioned, Jim Wilson and Thunderbolt Patterson tried starting opposition to Georgia Championship Wrestling in the mid 1970s. This flickered out in a hurry after a show at The Omni tanked (this is the one Wilson claimed that GCW sabotaged). Lars Anderson ran a group in the early 1980s. There was also the UWA which used mainly black wrestlers and aimed itself at black fans.

 

- Wrestling Show Classics. Bobby Davis ran this promotion in Ohio, centered around Cincinnati and also running Dayton, Columbus, and some other towns. This group competed with The Sheik's Detroit office which booked those Ohio towns. Davis' friend Buddy Rogers, Mark Lewin, Killer Karl Kox, and some other names of note worked here in 1969 and 1970. This group also ran the first ever wrestling card at The Spectrum in Philadelphia in the fall of 1969. Whether this was the start of a run against the WWWF, which ran the older Philadelphia Arena, or just a one shot deal is unknown since the attendance was awful and the promotion didn't return. The WWWF didn't open up at The Spectrum until 1974.

 

- Baron Leone attempted to run against the Los Angeles office. There is not a lot of information, but he may have made multiple attempts based on the timeline which stretches from the 1960s into the 1980s.

HarryG adds:

Outlaw feds (technically were companies that did not align themselves with the NWA nor pay dues, book or recognize the NWA World Champion, etc. So by that definition, the WWWF, AWA and later on WWA (California and Indiana) NWF and Mid-South were all "outlaws".

 

Thing was-all of those companies were on amicable terms. Vincent J. McMahon sat on the NWA Governing board even as his company was not (for several years) a part of the NWA. Verne Gagne held points in St. Louis (the heart of the NWA) and Kansas City. The NWF and Mid South had no problem getting their guys booked in NWA towns..... Many consider these "competitors" to be actually supported by the NWA-stemming back to the Federal Antitrust/Monopoly suit that was drawn against the NWA. Having friendly "rivals" allowed the NWA to claim that they indeed were NOT a monopoly.

 

True outlaw groups were groups that promoted in NWA-held territories in opposition to the established promotion. Some of the "made" groups did that once in awhile (Gagne tried to take over San Francisco and Los Angeles from Roy Shires and Mike LaBell-and failed; Bruiser tried on two occasions to take Detroit from the Sheik.) The outlaws that existed rarely lasted a long time. Shires himself was originally an outlaw (opposing Joe Malcewicz).

 

Poffo's ICW was an outlaw. There were several outlaw groups that came and went in Texas and Florida (Eddie Mansfield was running an IWA in Florida in the 1980s). Einhorn's IWA. The original NAWA (later WWWA) in Los Angeles. Ann Gunkel's was the best example given. Boris Malenko ran an opposition group in the Pensacola area against Eddie Graham after a falling out. Dave "Bearman" McKigney ran opposition against Frank Tunney in Ontario province...but then worked with him at times as well.

 

Then you had the tiny groups. Savodi's ICW, Kowalski and DeNucci's IWF (the one that hosted the LarryZ-Bruno , Jr. feud). Eddie Sharkey had his PWA operating right in the heart of AWA territory. These groups existed under the nose of the "big boys" because they worked markets where the NWA, or WWWF didn't go. So, essentially they were not competition.

 

Rule of thumb: If the established promotion tried to wipe out the "invader" then they were an outlaw. If not, then it was just another company.

[tomk]

this is from where?

 

Who was involved in the UWA in Georgia and when?

[Bix]

this is from where?

Beejmi's Sports & Wrestling board.

 

Who was involved in the UWA in Georgia and when?

The Thesz UWA in TN? That was in '76 and there are 2 episodes on tape that I need to get.

[tomk]

Thanks interesting board. Didn't know Lord Zoltan had been around for that long.

 

Know about Thesz' UWA w/ Pez Whatley been meaning to get some footagte forever. But meant this UWA which never heard of before:

 

Atlanta was pretty fertile ground for outlaws. As was mentioned, Jim Wilson and Thunderbolt Patterson tried starting opposition to Georgia Championship Wrestling in the mid 1970s. This flickered out in a hurry after a show at The Omni tanked (this is the one Wilson claimed that GCW sabotaged). Lars Anderson ran a group in the early 1980s. There was also the UWA which used mainly black wrestlers and aimed itself at black fans.

[KrisZ]

JUNE 12, 1981 – ROME, GA – MEMORIAL GYM

(Jim Wilson – Promoter)

> Ted Allen vs. Gerald Finley

> The Avenger vs. The Mongol

> The Inferno vs. Jim Wilson

> The Assassin vs. Thunderbolt Patterson

 

JUNE 19, 1981 – ROCKMART, GA – HIGH SCHOOL

(Thunderbolt Patterson – Promoter)

> The Avenger vs. El Mongol

> Ted Allen vs. Gerald Finley

> Jack Johnson vs. Bobby Vernon

> The Assassins vs. Thunderbolt Patterson & Jim Wilson

[tomk]

Jim Wilson is Chokehold author Jim Wilson.

Thunderbolt Patterson is Thunderbolt Patterson

Ted Allen would be Nightmare Ted Allen

Gerald Finley is long time black Georgia jobber Gerald Finley

The/EL Mongol would be 60s-70s wrestler EL Mongol?

And I'm assuming that The Avenger isn't whichever Torres brother worked as Avenger...No way they're running Torres v El Mongol in 1981?

Don't recognize Vernon or Jack Johnson

Assassins in 1980 would be Jody Hamilton and someone or someone else working Assassins gimmick? Inferno would be the second Assassin?

[KrisZ]

Those Assassins weren't either Jody Hamilton or at that time Dirty Rhodes as they were working Florida. It was some other guys.

 

That is the El Mongol from the old days.

[Stuttsy]

This thread is completely wonderful.

 

Is PolishBob someone whose name the general public knows?

[Jingus]

Supposedly he's Matthew "Ring of Hell" Randazzo.

[stunning_grover]

Kevin Cook and Bobbins (I think) channel a certain reviewer:

 

Dump Matsumoto vs. Chigusa Nagayo, 8/22/85

 

What a disappointment. The match starts off with Dump covering up for her lack of high-end, state of the art offense by choking Chigusa with a chain. There is a decent portion where Chigusa brings some nice counters to the table and Dump brings some high end, state of the art offense like a scorpion hold, but Dump insists on bringing the match down. She transitions using a fork (and later, a pair of scissors) with which she stabs Chigusa again and again, and Chigusa, after working in a nice payoff spot with her own scorpion hold, goes down into the gutter with her by banging her on the head with a metal box before the match falls apart entirely. After the match there's some sort of angle in which no one brings any state of the art, high end offense to the table. 1/2*

 

Annoyingly, the cameras kept panning to people crying in the stands. There may have been high end, state of the art offense somewhere in the portions where the cameras kept showing us people weeping because of this match, but probably not enough to bring the match up to more than the * range.

Negro Casas vs El Hijo del Santo 07/18/87 - Hair vs Mask, LA.

 

The first fall starts with some armdrags, hammerlocks, overhand wristlocks and armbars by Santo. Obviously they're setting up an arm-based storyline for this match, but after a short period that contained absolutely no high-end offense, Casas wins the fall with a Magistral Cradle out of nowhere, using the arm that had earlier been worked on, completely forgetting to sell the story of the match. In celebrating his win, he even did a back handspring and punched the air with his supposedly injured arm. rolleyes.gif

 

The second fall consisted of Casas working over Santo's neck with chops, dropkicks, snapmares and punches (although most of the punches missed their intended mark and hit the face). There was a particularly nutty moment where Santo's arm was draped over the bottom rope, and Casas grabbed it and twisted it around the rope, even though that had NOTHING to do with the story of the match. rolleyes.gif Once again there was no high-end offense brought to the dinner table. And Casas didn't sell his arm once. Santo made a comeback with a kneelift to the face, backdrop to the back and kick to the ass, before winning the fall with La Tapatia, none of which made any sense considering the earlier armwork. Santo also forgot to sell his neck.

 

The match really heads south in the third fall as Negro punches to transition. rolleyes.gif And it really degenerates into a spotfest, with neither man gaining a sustained advantage, or bringing any logical limb-based storytelling to the coffee table. There's just a series of 2 counts, none of which mean anything, before Santo wins with the camel clutch. So the match gains half-a-star because the finish obviously came from the earlier armwork weakening Casas' arm enough to get the hold on, and make him submit. But that was negated by them forgetting to tell that storyline properly for the duration of the match, and by the terrible selling by both men. rolleyes.gif

 

After the match, Casas finally remembered to sell his arm, as he was crying as his hair was getting cut off. Still, that was too little too late. 3/4*

Who were they channeling?

[Loss]

That was in a thread where they were going back and forth with Dangerous Dan, so I think it was him.

[kjh]

I was thinking Coey, as I'd forgotten all about Dangerous Dan.

[Death From Above]

If "PolishBobStupak" is Randazzo, I wonder why he chose that name. Seems like a weird, ultra-obscure actual person to reference on a wrestling forum.

 

I only mention this because I got a book I'd been angling to get for a while on my birthday this week, "The Professor, the Banker, and the Suicide King", and the real Bob Stupak is mentioned offhand in there once, I think he was only mentioned as the guy behind developing The Stratosphere in Vegas in the 1990's which was a massive money losing project at the time.

 

Anyway, that's just really really useless trivia. Just thinking out loud.

[Bix]

Kenny McBride expresses his frustration vis a vis Dave Meltzer and Brits in the WON HOF:

 

Dave's fundamental problem is not understanding the way this "territory" worked. 1. He thinks Dale Martin is one guy. 2. He thinks Dale Martin ran the entire country. 3. He thinks it was (or should have been, or could have been) run like any US territory. 4. He doesn't understand the restrictions TV presented here, nor the notion that because it was such a "sporting" style, that running American-style angles wasn't the done thing. 5. He doesn't realise that the TV was not in any way about promoting matches. 6. He doesn't realise that guys weren't on TV every week for a variety of reasons - shows were taped in different locations so used different crews; boxers wouldn't be fighting on TV every other week, so neither did wrestlers; there were up to 15 or more shows each night that all needed viable headliners, so the TV had to build up as many different names as possible and so on and so forth. There's probably more.

 

Dave thinks the "territory" just never did big business, but Dale Martin ran up to nine shows per night at some points, and in the 1960s, there were as many as 4000-5000 shows per year across Britain. That's probably close to the number of shows under the NWA banner across the US in the same timeframe. Few of them were doing big business in US terms, but the structure of the TV show (which was not a promotional vehicle like US TV, but an OB unit from ITV sent to record a show like any other sporting event with a broadcast rights fee paid to the wrestling promoters for every show) didn't allow it and the structure of the house show business didn't encourage or warrant it. Why build up to supershows when you're doing consistent business at dozens of venues across the country?

 

Dave also believes that it was all tiny venues and it's true, lots of venues weren't big, but Belle Vue held about 6000 (and was often full or close to it), the Kelvin Hall in Glasgow held up to about 2000 and was "sold out every week", Meadowbank in Edinburgh held a good couple of thousand, and there were ice rinks and other good sized venues in other cities that all did consistently good business. There aren't really any bigger venues than those in Britain because we just don't have the same kind of infrastructure that the Americans have and there was no Lutteroth family building purpose-built arenas anywhere. He talks about Wembley as "the only big venue they needed" but if George Kidd had a hot angle, he might have got booked on a Wembley show because he had a bit of a reputation and would have a good match, but he wouldn't draw shit because who's going to travel from Aberdeen to London to watch him in the mid '60s? Why would Dale Martin push Rocco/Dynamite to the top of a hypothetical Wembley show when they spend most of their time working for other promoters, so won't be available for any of the promotional work and won't be around afterwards to reap the post-Wembley afterglow?

 

The focus of all this shouldn't be on Daddy. It should be on Rocco. He was a super-worker for pretty much his entire career, as agreed on by Dynamite and by Sayama (who famously said Rocco was the best he was ever in the ring with). His rep in Britain is peerless. His rep in Japan is as good as anyone's. He held titles, so he can be shown to have been thought of as important as a draw. And, perhaps most importantly, it's fucking tough to demonstrate his drawing ability precisely because of the way the business worked here. Dave needs to recognise that.

 

And finally, someone needs to put together a piece for the "historical committee" explaining why Billy Riley needs to be in. The fucker trained all the Brits who are in the Hall Of Fame, as well as training Karl Gotch and thereby, indirectly, being personally responsible for MMA and most of the history of Japanese wrestling.

[Eduardo]

Where was this posted Bix?

[Bix]

Real in Memphis.

[Indikator]

Two things

 

I think crediting Reilly for Gotch is like crediting Stu Hart for Dynamite Kid. Gotch was beating former Olympians prior to his UK stint.

 

The size of the venues is not to be underestimated. Recently I've been starting to collect old Euro programs. For +50 day tournaments in the early 70s in Hannover, Germany they had in a ~3000 fans tent for years attendances of +150 000 for the whole tournament. That means sell outs non stop for the entire tournament repeatedly thoughout the years.

 

Also, regarding Belle Vue...

 

JUNE 1949 BILLS

 

1st;BELLE VUE

Rex Gable v Count Bartelli;Mike Demitre v Ron Jackson

Neil McBride v Seaman Wilkie;Lew Roseby v Ted Beckley

 

4th;BELLE VUE

Dave Armstrong v Tony Mancelli;Bert Assirati v Legs Langevin

Chic Elliott v Sandy McLaren;Vic Hessle v Harry Brooks

 

6th;BELLE VUE

Pat Curry v Freddie Rex;Dave Armstrong v Farmers Boy

Alf Robinson v Chic Knight;Ted Beresford v Seaman Wilkie

 

8th;BELLE VUE

Francis St Clair Gregory v Ernie Baldwin

Bert Assirati v Ray St Bernard;Emile Poilve v Jeff O’Malley

Seaman Wilkie v Sonny Wallis

 

11th;BELLE VUE

Dick the Doormouse v Jim Burnett;George Gregory v Farmers Boy

Francis St Clair Gregory v Chic Knight

Billy Joyce v Sonny Wallis

 

15th;BELLE VUE

Vic Hessle v Freddie Rex;Eric Day v Ron Jackson

Alf Robinson v Dai Sullivan;Lew Roseby v ???

 

18th;BELLE VUE

Bert Assirati v Ernie Baldwin;Rex Gable v Bob McMasters

Tom McCoy v Mike Demitre;Harry Fields v Gil Leduc

 

22nd;BELLE VUE

Jim Burnett v Francis St Clair Gregory

Cab Cashford v Gil Leduc;George Gregory v Anaconda

Seaman Wilkie v Emile Poilve

 

25th;BELLE VUE

Dave Armstrong v Ray St Bernard;Chic Knight v Farmers Boy

Gil Leduc v Lew Roseby;Eric Day v Bill McDonald

 

29th;BELLE VUE

Anaconda v Dave Armstrong;Rex Gable v Chic Elliott

Jeff O’Malley v Neil McBride;Pat Curry v Tim McCoy

[ohtani's jacket]

I reckon they're barking up the wrong tree with Rocco. Goodhelmet was on Dean & Noel's podcast saying his Black Tiger stuff isn't good. I've been watching a steady amount of WoS lately, and I dunno if he was top 5 in the available footage. Good worker, probably the type Dave would like, but I think people will come away from the Euro set a little disappointed by Rocco.

[Dylan Waco]

I reckon they're barking up the wrong tree with Rocco. Goodhelmet was on Dean & Noel's podcast saying his Black Tiger stuff isn't good. I've been watching a steady amount of WoS lately, and I dunno if he was top 5 in the available footage. Good worker, probably the type Dave would like, but I think people will come away from the Euro set a little disappointed by Rocco.

Rocco has the best chance because he has name value, credibility and a reputation even with people who know little to nothing about the Brits. He's "over" with the right people. Not saying that's "right" but after listening to Bix's podcast with Kurt you get an insight into the HoF voter and it tells you that sort of thing means a lot. I'm not running down Kurt but when you can't find room on your ballot for the RnR's or Bill Miller but include Jericho and agonize over a guy like Curt Hennig (who isn't even as good a candidate as Barry Windham, Goldberg, et.) I think people who want the Brits represented would be smart to start with a guy that fits the bill that the voters seem to be looking for.