Guest Booker with Jim Cornette

[MikeCampbell]

Has anyone seen the youtube trailers for this yet? There's only two of them so far, but this already looks like a must see DVD.

[Loss]

No, but this sounds awesome. Is it out yet?

[MikeCampbell]

It comes out on 8/25. There are 4 trailers, only two of them posted so far.

 

 

[kjh]

Hmm, the previews make me a bit skeptical. Vince playing heel owner to the babyface WCW renegades didn't work the first time. I also despise with a passion angles based on telling the audience that everything else previously on the show was fake, but this by Gawd is a shoot. On the basis of the previews, they should have given Paul Heyman a call and let Cornette rebook Jim Herd era WCW instead.

[Bix]

Cornette doing "everything you're watching is fake except this right now, which is real" stuff is really puzzling but this could still be good.

[MikeCampbell]

Cornette doing "everything you're watching is fake except this right now, which is real" stuff is really puzzling but this could still be good.

It’s not really puzzling, to me anyway. Cornette had a similar mindset when doing the little angle between SMW and WCW. Most fans believe that all promotions hate each other, so they go all the way with it. It’s not as bad as Russo’s stuff where they use wrestlers real names and vague shoot references that most fans don’t understand. Although, I will admit, that I didn’t care for his line in the Flair promo about Vince deciding who’s hand goes up and who’s shoulders stay down.

[Bix]

Cornette doing "everything you're watching is fake except this right now, which is real" stuff is really puzzling but this could still be good.

It’s not really puzzling, to me anyway. Cornette had a similar mindset when doing the little angle between SMW and WCW. Most fans believe that all promotions hate each other, so they go all the way with it. It’s not as bad as Russo’s stuff where they use wrestlers real names and vague shoot references that most fans don’t understand. Although, I will admit, that I didn’t care for his line in the Flair promo about Vince deciding who’s hand goes up and who’s shoulders stay down.

 

I was referring to that Flair/Vince line, not the idea of him making any semi-insider references.

[Loss]

It's possible I'm way off on this, and I'd have to see the full DVD to judge, but maybe it's in the context of insulting the competition as being fake more than talking about all wrestling as fake.

 

Perhaps it's the same dynamic Jim Ross used on that episode of Power Pro in the Mid South days when he talked about the weak chairshots in the Ricky Steamboat/Don Muraco feud. Suggesting that the competition is worked, but you're real, is kind of a familiar concept.

[ohtani's jacket]

I stopped watching WWE before the Invasion angle, but surely it was bound to fall on its ass.

 

An invasion angle can only really work if a group of workers jump from one promotion to another or appear to have jumped even if their company went out of business (like the original UWF.) How can you have an "invasion" when Vince is shooting about owning the wrestlers' contracts and everyone thinks WCW was a shitty promotion in its last few years? How many of those WCW guys were actually hot, like Choshu, Maeda or Hall and Nash?

 

It kinda reminds me of that crappy UWF-i feud with New Japan, though I guess not everyone in Japan realised that the UWF-i was losing money. And at least in that scenario, you had the idea that Takada would take on the world to see who the best worker in Japan was.

[Ditch]

NJ vs UWFi had its moments even if Choshu did just about everything in his power to ruin it. Certainly much better than the 2001 Invasion.

[Herodes]

USWA vs SMW in '95 is the best invasion angle I've seen but even in that case SMW was going out of business but it had some great moments while it was hot.

 

Does anyone know what the deal was when AAA wrestlers invaded Arena Mexico in 2000? I think it happened over 2 consecutive weeks and it was odd seeing guys like Abismo, Cibernetico there, and guys like Pirata Morgan back in the building and they had huge brawls between the rosters that went all the way outside the building, but I don't think it ever really went anywhere.

[JHawk]

SMW vs. USWA worked while it lasted because both sides were winning key matches. Honestly, the angle should have breathed new life into SMW

[Bix]

Does anyone know what the deal was when AAA wrestlers invaded Arena Mexico in 2000? I think it happened over 2 consecutive weeks and it was odd seeing guys like Abismo, Cibernetico there, and guys like Pirata Morgan back in the building and they had huge brawls between the rosters that went all the way outside the building, but I don't think it ever really went anywhere.

It set up the "Padrismo" interpromotional show that Televisa wanted to do.

[WrestlingPower]

Was SMW really "dying" in mid-1995? No one knew it was at least. Certainly there were frustrations over the TV world changing by then and I think their backer had pulled out by then but I don't think even now Cornette would admit that it was dying until a few months after this. The Fall was always a slow time but it really wasn't until Thanksgiving Thunder tour drew less than expected & mounting TV time costs that put them out in Nov.

 

USWA/SMW did prop up business in a couple SMW markets but it really was a USWA feud only. PG-13 and Hales only appeared for a few months in SMW but it wasn't really a part of their TV, certainly nowhere near as much as in USWA where the promotion was built around it.

[Cox]

I think interest was down before fall of '95 in SMW. The Superbowl of Wrestling probably helped keep them afloat a little while longer, but houses were down before that and interest was down. Frankly, SMW in '95 just wasn't as interesting as the previous three years. In particular, Bobby Blaze flopped hard as champion, and it wound up hurting Buddy Landell too since he looked like a weak champion for taking so long to beat a guy with no credibility, and then Brad Armstrong's reign on top didn't really do much either.

[tomk]

An invasion angle can only really work if a group of workers jump from one promotion to another or appear to have jumped even if their company went out of business (like the original UWF.) How can you have an "invasion" when Vince is shooting about owning the wrestlers' contracts and everyone thinks WCW was a shitty promotion in its last few years? How many of those WCW guys were actually hot, like Choshu, Maeda or Hall and Nash?

Watching the handhelds from the beginning of Invasion, you get the sense that actually worked as crowds were super super hot for all of the matches. Unbelievably hot for what you would think were annonymous ex power planters. I'm not exactly sure when it all fell apart but theree is a point where they clearly overcomplicated stuff and it fell apart.

[kjh]

I think it really fell apart when Austin turned back heel, though they made numerous mistakes before and after. The crowd was insanely hot for the return of the old Stone Cold kicking ass on the WCW invaders. As much as Austin's fresh paranoid heel character was entertaining, it was the wrong role for him to play at that time, given that it was so well known that he hated WCW for being fired over the telephone in 1995 and was the WWF's franchise star that turned the company around and helped them defeat WCW in the promotional war. Angle was also terribly miscast as Austin's kickass babyface foil, a role he wasn't used to playing and felt forced after playing cowardly chickenshit comedy heel for so long.

[Loss]

I'm curious about what Cornette thinks is the best way to use Flair in the Invasion.

 

Meaning, if Bischoff is involved, which would have been a positive, I can't see Cornette thinking Flair should be a heel aligned with Bischoff.

 

But if he's a babyface, he can't be WCW.

 

Ditto for Goldberg.

 

How do you have Flair and Goldberg on the same side as Bischoff?

 

I'm sure if I thought about it for 5-10 minutes, I could come up with something, but I'm curious what he said.

 

On a side note, I remember that was one thing that I used to ask myself as a fan during the NWO days. So this wasn't a faction or stable, this was an outside promotion. But everyone got along? What were they going to do when they took over, just wrestle each other?

 

I also think the Invasion would have been the perfect opportunity to do programs with Benoit/Jericho/Eddy/Rey, etc. versus WCW main eventers, with the real-life hostility making for a natural backstory.

[JMFabianoRPL]

Screw this DVD, THIS is the one I want...

 

http://www.cornettescollectibles.com/product.sc?productId=44

[Loss]

That's awesome if the August match from Philly with the Rock & Rolls winning is in full. It's never been available before.

 

I'm sure it's the clipped version.

[vikingsfan73]

That's awesome if the August match from Philly with the Rock & Rolls winning is in full. It's never been available before.

 

I'm sure it's the clipped version.

My order shipped yesterday. I'll let you know.

[MikeCampbell]

I actually got this in the mail today (KC sent me this, and also a couple other DVDs to review on 411), and from what I've seen so far it's classic Cornette. Tons of hilarious stories with hilarious impressions, and Jim still has his knack for going off on entertaining tangents. After seeing the Flair and Vince promos in the context of what he was trying to achieve with his booking, they make a lot more sense. Although I still dislike the line about Vince having the say on who's hand goes up and who's shoulders go down.

[JHawk]

I think interest was down before fall of '95 in SMW. The Superbowl of Wrestling probably helped keep them afloat a little while longer, but houses were down before that and interest was down. Frankly, SMW in '95 just wasn't as interesting as the previous three years. In particular, Bobby Blaze flopped hard as champion, and it wound up hurting Buddy Landell too since he looked like a weak champion for taking so long to beat a guy with no credibility, and then Brad Armstrong's reign on top didn't really do much either.

The Sunday Bloody Sunday show in February, which was a sellout of nearly 4000 in 1994, only drew about 1100. While those are perfectly acceptable numbers for an indy today, a nearly 75% drop in 12 months time is usually a pretty good indicator that business is down.

 

Would the Super Bowl of Wrestling really have helped them keep afloat? With all the outside talent and the WWF influence, I can't imagine that card turning much of a profit.

[Cox]

I could be wrong, but I am assuming that WWE lent Cornette Undertaker and Michaels for this show since Cornette was WWE affiliated at the time.

 

And you're right, business had been bad before '95, but that's when it seemed to really go off the cliff. The start of the fall was probably August of '94 at Fire on the Mountain in the hair match with the Rock 'n' Rolls putting up Ricky Morton's hair against Brian Lee and Chris Candido putting up Tammy Fytch's hair. The Rock 'n' Rolls lost, and they shaved Candido's crew cut in what had to feel like the ultimate ripoff. They killed Johnson City that night.

[WrestlingPower]

Don't get me wrong, SMW was not headed in a positive direction when it went down but I think the downfall was only the last like 3 months, not a whole year plus. My friend & I would drive 6-8 hrs every month or 2 to see shows and we were starting to second guess ourselves by Thanksgiving Thunder with Cornette wrestling the midget and Miss Texas vs. Wolfman (TV jobber). When it went under, I had heard tentative plans for Dec & Jan and I thought they were really going to look low budget. From what I remember, they had actually shot an angle with a local indy, Terry Landel, I think and were going to go with an invasion angle of SMW vs. local Knoxville indy. That and they were several years into recycling the same guys over & over.

 

In his Q&A in 1995 I remember JC said using the big name talent was a double edged sword. It helped business for the one night but people stopped coming to the other shows, waiting for a big name to come back around.