Best Angles That Didn't Pan Out

[Guest Cerebus The Aardvark]

Yeah Christian was over huge at that point and the inclusion of Jericho in that feud totally cut his balls off and made him seem like an afterthought.

I guess they felt they had to do that so Jericho could lose to Cena again. Seriously, has he EVER won a match where Cena was an opponent?

 

More on topic, I'd have to agree with the HHH/Steph/Angle mention; the fans were hot for it, and having Steph side with Angle would have really blown it up, but it got killed via HHH being HHH. A shame.

[Loss]

I think the timeline was that they had started announcing Cena/Christian for Vengeance, then Jericho went to Vince and said he wanted to leave when his contract was up, and asked if he could go out on top. So Vince decided to add Jericho to the match to start building toward a Jericho/Cena match at Summerslam. It was a bad move, yes, but I don't know that it was designed specifically with the purpose of burying Christian.

 

Jericho has said he was added to that match because they were afraid Christian would get cheered over Cena.

[CodySave]

I think the timeline was that they had started announcing Cena/Christian for Vengeance, then Jericho went to Vince and said he wanted to leave when his contract was up, and asked if he could go out on top. So Vince decided to add Jericho to the match to start building toward a Jericho/Cena match at Summerslam. It was a bad move, yes, but I don't know that it was designed specifically with the purpose of burying Christian.

 

Jericho has said he was added to that match because they were afraid Christian would get cheered over Cena.

Interesting that they weren't concerned about the "who gets cheered factor" at all when Triple H faced Cena and, in fact, embraced the apathy Cena was receiving from vocal male contigenet because of how the loud the reactions were and how much it got everyone talking. I mean, really, I would think WWE officials as much as anyone would realize that a loud "not by design" reaction draws more interest in your overall product and more money for your company than a mild-mannered reaction to the actual plans.

[Guest Slickster]

Well, WM22 was after almost nine months of divided crowds and after they had tried everything to turn the crowds to Cena's favor (evil GM Eric Bischoff, turning Kurt Angle heel and pairing him with Daivari). I think that WWE acknowledging the anti-Cena fans was simply because they had run out of other ideas to make the crowd go along with the plan.

[sek69]

Well, WM22 was after almost nine months of divided crowds and after they had tried everything to turn the crowds to Cena's favor (evil GM Eric Bischoff, turning Kurt Angle heel and pairing him with Daivari). I think that WWE acknowledging the anti-Cena fans was simply because they had run out of other ideas to make the crowd go along with the plan.

 

It was kind of brilliant for them to suddenly try to take ownership of the anti-Cena contingent by referring to them as "traditional wrestling fans" voicing their by-god right to an opinion, as if that was their intention all along to get their top babyface booed by half the building.

[kjh]

Yeah, I dug paranoid heel Austin who's afraid that his time has passed and the promotion is turning towards others. Austin hugging Vince stuff made a lot of sense when you take that into account.

 

Angle comedy, specifically the music playing, is something I would've scrapped too. But the Angle feud itself was fine, since Angle was the guy Austin was afraid would be overtaking him. Stuff like the milk truck wasn't a bad plot device as far as a reminder to what Austin was in the past, both to him and to the audience. Perhaps Angle could've gone over at SummerSlam. But paranoid Austin doing whatever he possibly could to get disqualified is something you'd expect.

 

Agreed that the first two months or so after Mania until Quad Tear No. 1 sucked, though. After that, some good stuff, but it was likely too late.

I think Austin's second heel turn at the Invasion PPV was a much bigger mistake than the first. The return of the "old Stone Cold" Stunning all the Alliance stars on the Raw before the PPV got such a mammoth pop that it proved, if it wasn't obvious already, that Austin had to be the face of the company against the heel invaders. The Angle vs. Austin feud was perfectly enjoyable, but it was a massive flop in terms of business, as they were both in the wrong roles, something the promotion unfortunately realized four months too late when they turned them both in the aftermath of the Invasion angle being torpedoed at Survivor Series. Though perversely entertaining, the stuff with the milk truck made Angle look like such a geek and a lame Austin wannabe.

[1004Holds]

Well, WM22 was after almost nine months of divided crowds and after they had tried everything to turn the crowds to Cena's favor (evil GM Eric Bischoff, turning Kurt Angle heel and pairing him with Daivari). I think that WWE acknowledging the anti-Cena fans was simply because they had run out of other ideas to make the crowd go along with the plan.

I'll give the WWE credit. It worked so well that whenever anyone brings up Cena getting booed these days, people just write it off as one of the following types of fans:

 

1) IWC types who don't matter

2) bitter Attitude Era marks

3) ignorant Cena haters

 

Not to say that those groups don't exist but whenever I see anyone point that out on a forum like Wrestling Forums, the usual WWE defenders come out and say that having Cena get booed is a good thing because it shows how controversial he is. They also seem to forget that he was getting booed in 2004 at times and think it started because of the first ONS. Also I hate how everyone assumes that Cena fans are only women or children or that Cena haters are only middle-aged men who don't bath very often.

 

But to get back on topic, I thought the LWO could have been a great stable if it hadn't been for Eddie's accident and the usual BS that WCW went through at the time. It could have been like the Nation of Domination except done right. The premise of all the Latino wrestlers joining together to stand up for themselves was very appealing to me. They just needed a better name.

[goc]

I think Austin's second heel turn at the Invasion PPV was a much bigger mistake than the first. The return of the "old Stone Cold" Stunning all the Alliance stars on the Raw before the PPV got such a mammoth pop that it proved, if it wasn't obvious already, that Austin had to be the face of the company against the heel invaders. The Angle vs. Austin feud was perfectly enjoyable, but it was a massive flop in terms of business, as they were both in the wrong roles, something the promotion unfortunately realized four months too late when they turned them both in the aftermath of the Invasion angle being torpedoed at Survivor Series. Though perversely entertaining, the stuff with the milk truck made Angle look like such a geek and a lame Austin wannabe.

This is true, but the thing is if you have Austin as the face of the company, who the hell does the Alliance have that looks credible against him? That would have made the whole thing even more lopsided even if Angle had joined the Alliance. The whole angle was never going to work because they didn't want to buy the real stars out of their Time-Warner contracts.

[kjh]

The whole angle was never going to work long term because they didn't want to portray the outsiders as credible threats. Even if they had all the real stars, they'd have jobbed them out the same. It would have worked better if the key wrestlers were in the right roles, but it wouldn't have saved the angle. Austin being heel only really made sense if he was going to feud with Rock and Hunter when he came back. That never happened, so they should have kept him as a face.

[goc]

I think if they had signed the big stars they wouldn't have made them all look like chumps collectively like they did with The Alliance. I just can't see guys like Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Hogan or Sting just going along with anything and everything the writers come up with if it's making them look like total chumps. None of those guys would have let themselves get done the way DDP did.

[kjh]

They wouldn't have been made to look like total chumps, but they would have still been put in the role of immediately putting over the real WWE stars. Look at how Hall, Nash, Goldberg and Hogan were treated when they finally entered the company. Hall jobbed out to Austin in his first major match, before quickly flaking out. Nash was plagued by injuries, but found himself jobbing out to Hunter and Jericho on the way out the door when he was healthy enough to return. Goldberg had his balls cut off by being forced to wear Goldust's wig, work Hunter's pat match and job to Hunter in their first match together despite him being crippled at the time. Hogan jobbed to Rock, Undertaker, Angle and Lesnar, and returned the favour to Hunter for putting him over at Backlash in his first return to the company. That's not to mention Bischoff hugging Vince and Flair jobbing to anyone who's anyone plus Rico before he became Hunter's manager.

[jdw]

I would have been cautious about how I handled some of them.

 

Hogan & Nash & Hall proved to be posion in WCW, which was something that Bruce was onto in that early column he did about how they were destroying the babyface side. I don't think I would have wanted to put them over. Frankly... I never would have used the "nWo" simply to make sure that I wouldn't use Hall & Nash.

 

Hogan, on the other hand, is someone I would use. Fans would have liked to see him against Rock and Austin. Obviously Goldberg, and they needed to push him hard.

 

They key at the time should have been finding a balance of a number of big stars to carry the WCW side (like Hogan, Goldberg) while cutting out the deadwood and locker room cancers (Hall & Nash, Steiners, etc). Then sift through the lower, cheaper ranks for guys that you want to do something with long term. And eyeball guys like Booker to figure out if you want to use the angle to get them in your top mix.

 

The problem is that everyone in the WWF from Trip on down was goin to get all paraniod about these guys stealing their slots. The potential for really bad vibes is high.

 

John

[Johnny Sorrow]

From a Jim Ross Interview from LAW re: "Not Signing The Big WCW Stars For Invasion"

 

Some of those guys didn't want to work. They were getting guaranteed contracts so why would you want to hire an unmotivated performer? I had no interest in that. I don't care how big your name was it wasn't good in the locker room. Our issues were not really pay structure as much as we were not going to blow up our model for anyone. We had a good model and a fair model and some guys made ridiculous sums of money and I'm very happy for that, that is one of my greatest contributions, I was at least in the position to facilitate some guys to make a truck load of money and the heartbreaking part of that is some guys didn't take care of that, but what can that not be said for? We didn't have what were perceived to be 'the stars' but we had some good guys, we had some real good guys but when you go to guys with guaranteed deals and they can sit at home to make the same or more than we were going to going to pay them - I remember talking to Rey Mysterio in Los Angeles and he had a guaranteed deal with WCW and I said 'I can't touch this number'. I said 'you'll make more money here than that contract but you're not going to get it guaranteed, you're going to get a great contract guaranteed and then the sky is the limit and you'll be motivated and incentivized to go out and get it done and you'll blow that number that you're guaranteed away. But if I was you or your manager I'd say take the time off, get healthy, spend time with your family, let this contract run out and take this big bread and then when you're ready, let's talk, sign you up and get you going and he's been there ever since and that's what we did and he's been there ever since - making a lot more money than he did in WCW but at the time not guaranteed. I don't think not having a cluster of talent with skills and name identity was the culprit on the invasion angle not working longer I just think it was thought that it was a storyline that had run its course and it was time for us to move on and that's what we did.

[Ditch]

Was WWF in a position to take on the contracts if they so chose? Certain ones just weren't going to happen, for instance Hogan's with the creative control, limited dates and high price. But given the potential that was there, surely they could have convinced a couple more guys to work for their WCW deals plus some incentives and the ability to take part in a huge angle. Maybe if there were more 'names' involved, the angle would habe been booked better.

 

Ah, wishful thinking...

[Ronnie]

Was WWF in a position to take on the contracts if they so chose?

WWE made a profit of £56m between January and April 2001.

 

I'd say that that indicates that they could have financed the contracts should they have wished to, although that's not to say that they should have done.

[Bix]

Remember, they only bought a couple dozen undercard and midcard wrestler contracts, since the rest were funneled through Turner Home Entertainment for funky accounting reasons. Anyone contract that wasn't an asset of WCW had to be negotiated individually after taking a buyout from THE for a fraction of the deal's total value.

[goc]

As far as I know, DDP is the only guy who took a buyout from Turner to come to WWE. I bet he probably regrets that now.

[Bix]

Booker T was also a buyout.

[S.L.L.]

I just think it was thought that it was a storyline that had run its course and it was time for us to move on and that's what we did.

The Invasion fell apart because the story had run it's course? How long was it's course, then? An eighth of a second?

[tomk]

There are a ton of handhelds available during the Invasion period. At the start of the angle the crowds are super super hot.

Super hot for heel invading Palumbo/O'haire. Palumbo/O'haire were more over as invading WCW heels than I ever remember them actually being over in WCW.

 

As the angle progresses the crowd heat does die.

But that really feels to me like the fault of the bad writing and not the fault of lack of name talent.

 

On some level they were hurt by having no non-Mcmahon mouth piece for the invasion. Having someone identified with WCW as mouthpiece means more than name talent in WCW stable.

It really feels to me that SMW v USWA needs Randy Hales v Mark Curtis.

Fantasy booking Bischoff leading a Karate Army of Booker T, Ernest Miller, Jerry Flynn, Ray Lloyd, Meng a Jung Dragon and some Power Planter's in gis doing a karate army v NJ type type deal would be a shitty WCW roster but would have had a mouthpiece that audience actually buys as repping WCW.

I don't know who else you could get for that role.

Mcmahon wasn't interested in either Zbysco or Jarrett.

I don't know if Cornette,Hart, Mike Sanders, Ernest Miller, Bagwell, Dustin, Anderson, Kidman, David Flair or Eaton could have pulled it off.

With better writing Booker, DDP or Kanyon could have probably done it. Which in the end brings it back to the writing. Even with a non-Mcmahon mouthpiece, if the writing isn't good it won't ammount to much.

[Al]

As far as I know, DDP is the only guy who took a buyout from Turner to come to WWE. I bet he probably regrets that now.

I dunno. I remember DDP coming out at WM 18 with a look at sheer joy on his face. I don't know if he'd trade that.

[KrisZ]

The perfect WCW mouthpiece would've been Bischoff but that wasn't happening. Flair would've been good too but he would come a month after the angle was killed.

[Death From Above]

This all touches close to what I've always said that once you own both names, there was no reason not to have a WCW "takeover" of Smackdown. Even if it's short term, if Charles Robinson and Nick Patrick are suddenly refereeing "WCW Nitro" on Thursdays, called by Tony Shivonne and Mike Tenay (or whatever), fans would buy into it. Make "WCW" look like WCW. WCW vs. WWF was an actual brand vs. brand contest that mattered and I think they dropped the ball on that as much as on any piece of talent, simply because WCW was a four letter word and they didn't want to say it too many times. Problem with the invasion was as much that WCW became "just another stable" instead of being "WCW" as it was that there was no Sting, Goldberg, Hogan.

 

You can't really build a major angle around the fact Tony Shivonne or Mike Tenay is on the show, but if it makes WCW's "invasion" more believable it would have been worthwhile in the short term. Then someday when you've gone as far with it as it's worth going WCW drop a Survivor Series or a War Games match, or whatever, and WWF "wins back" it's show.

 

Tom is right that quality of writing was a big issue. When you are running company vs. company and aren't smart enough to run "Nick Patrick, WCW referee, DQ's WWF wrestler for soft reason in interpromotional match", when everyone knows it's going to draw heat, you're either sinking the angle on purpose or the people writing it just don't understand what's going on when you book WWF vs. WCW as a wrestling feud. Tenay yells about how WCW is about rules and tradition and all that bullshit that they'd already been doing for years anyway. This shit isn't hard to write as a feud within one company instead of two actually separate ones, and considering how hot even casual fans were for the idea there's no reason to say even adding in little stuff like that wouldn't have been really successful, if they just wanted to go there.

 

I figure they never went that far with it for the same reason everyone else does, the ego thing (I don't think Vince could stand the idea of promoting WCW and having it succeed, even once he'd won), but even done pretty short term it probably would have got the fans attention and kept it long enough.

 

All those little secondary guys most likely come cheaper put together than Hogan who wasn't going to do it unless it was his way anyway, with no creative control issues, less baggage (I won't say none with Tony), are easier to get rid of when you want to without hurting the show, etc. Since you can't really get around the reasons a lot of top guys were not brought in, I think it would have been a more judicious use of money than trying to deal with Hogan's stuff, really.

 

Still probably would have needed some sort of WCW non-McMahon mouthpiece. Bischoff, Flair, hell could have been Dusty I guess.

 

Not a perfect idea without bugs granted, but I still like it in theory.

[Death From Above]

Just to expand on that referee/announcer thing slightly. I once went to a then-WWF house show on which Earl Hebner got the third or fourth loudest pop of the night. No entrance music, no "ladies and gentlemen WWF refereeing legend Earl Hebner", no spotlight. Just Hebner getting into the ring to do what he does, and out of the blue he got this giant pop.

 

Point is nobody actually paid to see Earl Hebner, but the fans giving him a big pop was their way of saying "you have become part of the 'experience' of seeing a WWF show, and we appreciate that". Little details like that weren't going to save the Invasion thing by itself, but if the Invasion was being done better adding the little details is good icing on the cake.

 

Still would have required the Invasion to actually be an invasion.

[Guest Slickster]

Hadn't WWE conditioned their fans to think WCW was the worst thing ever?

Weren't WCW's ratings at the end roughly half those of WWE?