Dave Meltzer stuff

[ohtani's jacket]

Why do people care if Dave thinks they're the same thing? This is a pretty worn out talking point considering nobody ever adds anything new to it.

[sek69]

Why do people care if Dave thinks they're the same thing? This is a pretty worn out talking point considering nobody ever adds anything new to it.

 

Because the longer Dave and Co push it and no one stands up to say "uh, no" the more people start to believe it.

 

You'd think we'd be at the point that the mindset of ignoring misinformation makes it go away has been proven wrong, but we're not.

[rovert]

The argument is that Dave shapes their opinions, and people vote how he says they should.

Good thing you guys are too smart to fall for that.

 

If you do look at it objectively people do follow Dave's editoral line more oftern than not. He is an opinion maker.

[ohtani's jacket]

Why do people care if Dave thinks they're the same thing? This is a pretty worn out talking point considering nobody ever adds anything new to it.

 

Because the longer Dave and Co push it and no one stands up to say "uh, no" the more people start to believe it.

 

You'd think we'd be at the point that the mindset of ignoring misinformation makes it go away has been proven wrong, but we're not.

 

Is there really a significant amount of people pushing the Meltzer line of thinking or are you talking about years into the future? It doesn't seem like something people care about.

[Sean Liska]

Dave calls out Bix after an old HOF debate about Angle got bumped:

 

 

"Do the people in the first few pages realize that with the benefit of hindsight how absolutely little about wrestling they understood three years ago?

 

The good thing is you can always learn.

 

The ones who think they were right at the time three years later, well, there was no hope for them to begin with. "

 

Because Angle's TNA run over the last three years has elimiminted ALL doubt.

[S.L.L.]

Shouldn't the WON voters get most of that blame?

Aside from what Loss said, if a vote is cast for something that's ineligible for it's given category, it shouldn't be counted. Even the RSP-W Awards get that right. I don't know who tabulates the votes for Dave or if he does it himself, but it's not the Oscars. He knows the winners before the Awards issue gets published. If he sees that things ineligible for votes in their given category have not only been counted, but have won, he should scrap them.

 

The argument is that Dave shapes their opinions, and people vote how he says they should.

Good thing you guys are too smart to fall for that.

 

Yes. Yes it is.

 

Sarcasm works better when people can't agree with what you say with a straight face.

[Bix]

Dave calls out Bix after an old HOF debate about Angle got bumped:

 

 

"Do the people in the first few pages realize that with the benefit of hindsight how absolutely little about wrestling they understood three years ago?

 

The good thing is you can always learn.

 

The ones who think they were right at the time three years later, well, there was no hope for them to begin with. "

 

Because Angle's TNA run over the last three years has elimiminted ALL doubt.

I'm not sure what his point is even supposed to be there, especially in terms of how it relates to Angle.

 

Is now a good time to break out the "Lex Luger: Darling of the WON" quotes?

[Loss]

Yes! I will be recapping it slowly over time, but that may deserve its own thread, considering how loved Luger was in the WON circa 1989, and how revisionist history has forgotten that.

[tomk]

Isn’t his inclusion more of an embarrassment now than 3 years ago.

 

I thought the story was Brock Lesnar walked into wrestling locker room and saw Kurt Angle a former world class athlete reduced to a useless shell of a druggie and went…”ehh I want out.”

 

With “hindsight” that’s Angle’s legacy.

[Ditch]

It helps if you think the Angle formula of having guys kick out of the Angle Slam and survive an ankle lock every other week is enough to make him a top 10 wrestler in the world. If you take "Angle has been a world-class wrestler for a decade" and add whatever drawing power he's had, it's a much more reasonable case than three years ago. I happen to think that his TNA run has exposed him quite a bit, but lots of people don't.

[Dan]

Even if the TNA run put him over the top, it's insanely dumb to put a guy in the HOF, four years into his career. I mean really, is there any sense in bestowing some honor to a person based on what might happen in the future? And then there's the ultimate reason to wait a while after a wrestler fake-retires to induct them: Chris Benoit.

[rovert]

Here are two Facebook status updates from Angle which are rather grim:

 

although my kids are moving away and im sad to see them go, im excited for them. they will experience a new city, a new culture(the south). i am excited for them. i cant wait for kyra to start singing and dancing, and kody? well, lets just say the apple doesnt fall far from the tree"olympic wrestler". i love you guys! xo daddy

hello, i start back on tna impact this thur at 9pm. i cant wait. i gained 10 solid pounds and lost bodyfat during my break. thx to Anglefoods diet. log onto foodiesfoodclub.com to order. i cant stop eating it. shooting movie in LA june 3-6 called 'beyond the mat'. look for it this winter. GOD bless

[Bix]

Well, at least he's getting along with Jarrett. I imagine he'd be a much bigger mess if they didn't come to an understanding a few months ago after Jarrett spoke favorably about him during the custody hearings.

 

Oh, and in fairness, Dave may have been referring to the gold medal marks aspect of my posts in that thread, and I can honestly see him thinking that nobody voted for him for that reason (or at least not an overwhelming amount of voters).

 

Since I'm not a subscriber anymore and I don't really remember: About how much was I arguing that it was the gold medal and how much that being voted in when he was (and then changing the rules for the next year to where he wouldn't have been voted in) was ridiculous when you consider all of the elite level workers who had as much or more going for them than he did at the time? And did I make any Lex Luger or Terry Taylor references?

[Dan]

Found the thread:

 

 

kahnyl

 

When Angle was the best he was near death. He's a little healtier now so I don't mind that his matches aren't as good.

dave

 

Abyss, Morgan and Anderson all had not only their career best matches with him, but matches that nobody could have conceived any of them could have had beforehand.

zags

I think the question should be how did Kurt Angle warrant getting into the HOF in 2004? 4 years of being in WWE is enough to warrant HOF? I think he should be in but he got in way too soon.

dave

 

It was 5 years, and 60% of the voters voted for him.

Cerveza Mas Sexy

 

Just my opinion, but Angle going in after only 5 years (more like 4 and a half on TV at the time people were voting) as a PRO-wrestler hurt the credibility of the HOF.

 

What was the rush to put him on the ballot? It felt like a real stretch of your criteria to get him on the ballot by counting his amateur career towards the "10 years in the business" requirement. In my mind his amateur credentials should serve as a positive when weighing his merit as a candidate, but not make up half the basis for his candidacy.

 

Can't argue with him getting 60% of the vote, but I didn't think he should have been on the ballot. In the end it doesn't matter since he probably still would have gotten 60% if he hit the ballot in 2009.

[Bix]

I don't recall seeing any Angle-Abyss matches aside from Angle's TNA debut and don't recall that one being especially good. Styles always seemed like Abyss's best opponent by far.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Angle & Abyss had a match at Turning Point 2008 which Dave gave ****1/4.

[Al]

Even if the TNA run put him over the top, it's insanely dumb to put a guy in the HOF, four years into his career. I mean really, is there any sense in bestowing some honor to a person based on what might happen in the future? And then there's the ultimate reason to wait a while after a wrestler fake-retires to induct them: Chris Benoit.

I agree that it's dumb four years in. It's dumb five years in, it's dumb 10 years in and it's probably not a good idea 15 years into a guy's career. Obviously you can't use the usual sports standard of five years after retirement. But I believe the rock 'n' roll HOF uses a standard of 25 years after a musician/band's debut for eligibility. That's the kind of standard a wrestling Hall of Fame should seek.

[tomk]

So did I miss the Observer where he praised a Ken anderson v Angle match as Anderson's career best match?

I remember Meltz praising an OVW match opposite CM Punk and at least one of the Batista and Undertaker matches. Don't remember the Angle match as career best praise.

[Cox]

His review of Anderson/Angle from Lockdown:

 

7. Kurt Angle beat Mr. Anderson in 20:54. Rules here were that the only way you could win was to leave through the cage door, and Anderson had the keys to the cage since he won the ladder match on Impact. Angle looked the biggest he has in a long time. He was bleeding immediately and Anderson rubbed Angle’s blood all over his chest. Anderson was bleeding soon enough. Angle used a belly-to-belly superplex off the top rope. Angle used a belly-to-belly on the mat, and set up the Olympic slam, until Anderson countered with the Lambeau plunge. He went for the mic check, but Angle blocked and hit six straight German suplexes. This spot was awesome because Angle didn’t do one after the other like Chris Benoit, but took his time and made each one mean something. The crowd was going crazy at that point. Angle then went to the door, showing he could leave, but decided not to, and instead put on the ankle lock. Anderson escaped and hit the mic check finisher. He used his key to open the lock, but Angle got up and gave Anderson another Olympic slam. Angle got to the door, teased leaving, but instead, re-locked the lock. Angle then flipped off Anderson, and threw the key to the lock into the crowd. I hope that means they aren’t stuck in that cage forever. Anderson then tried to climb over the top, but Angle climbed after him. Angle was standing on the top rope in middle, and German suplexed Anderson back into the ring and Anderson landed badly on his shoulder. Angle climbed to the top of the cage and hit the moonsault. He landed badly and looked like he nearly killed himself. Angle unlocked the door and walked out, but before hitting the floor, Anderson flipped him off with both hands. Angle went back in, but Anderson nailed him with a low blow and mic check. Anderson started crawling and was just about out when Angle recovered, put on an ankle lock and pulled Anderson back into the ring. Anderson was tapping like crazy and the place went crazy, thinking he’d won, and couldn’t understand why it was still going. So much for the stipulation of this match getting over on television. As Angle went to leave, Anderson was flipping him off again, but put Angle’s head into the cage and went to escape, but Angle started choking him with the chain that held the medals. After choking Anderson out, Angle spit in his face, stomped on his groin, and walked over him and outside the cage to win. Angle then gave a speech saying that he was going to take time off for a while to mentally regroup, and would return to win the world title. He’s opening a health food café in Pittsburgh this coming week called “Kurt Angle’s Foodies Café.” ****½

[Sean Liska]

Well, at least he's getting along with Jarrett. I imagine he'd be a much bigger mess if they didn't come to an understanding a few months ago after Jarrett spoke favorably about him during the custody hearings.

 

Oh, and in fairness, Dave may have been referring to the gold medal marks aspect of my posts in that thread, and I can honestly see him thinking that nobody voted for him for that reason (or at least not an overwhelming amount of voters).

 

Since I'm not a subscriber anymore and I don't really remember: About how much was I arguing that it was the gold medal and how much that being voted in when he was (and then changing the rules for the next year to where he wouldn't have been voted in) was ridiculous when you consider all of the elite level workers who had as much or more going for them than he did at the time? And did I make any Lex Luger or Terry Taylor references?

The first couple of pages of the thread were pretty much just you arguing against the board about why Angle didn't deserve to be in for a variety of reason. Dave's point seems to be that it's now clear that anyone against Angle in the HOF has been exposed as clueless.

[Dylan Waco]

and that is why the WON HoF is a joke. There are hundreds of wrestlers as qualified - or more qualified - than Angle who will never see the Hall.

[Loss]

Specifically, people in the thread were making the argument that no one had ever gotten that good that fast, and Bix listed over a dozen wrestlers that were that good early in their careers, like Barry Windham, Owen Hart, Jumbo Tsuruta, Ricky Morton, Keichi Yamada, and others. Then, the argument switched to "Well, that doesn't count because they weren't good on the biggest stage of them all that early". Someone even argued that Angle should go in because he has been a great ambassador for pro wrestling. And Bix is the one who looks foolish three years later? In a thread where people are accusing Bix of being contrarian for arguing that Barry freakin' Windham was better than Kurt Angle, an opinion that seems pretty non-controversial to me.

[Dan]

[WON 100] Shawn Michaels and Nobuhiko Takada... These posts by Dave are from April 2003:

 

Arguing that Pride isn't pro wrestling in 2003 would be like arguing WWE isn't pro wrestling in 2003. Neither are close to what pro wrestling was in 1970.

Since this is kind of getting sat on...

 

 

 

Pop quiz: Is this closer to Pride or WWE?

[S.L.L.]

Somebody needs to drag up the quote (pretty sure it was Meltzer who made it) about how if Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt were alive today, and they saw current pro wrestling and MMA, they would point to MMA as their sport.

 

Gotch and Hackenschmidt - save probably for one famous bout - competed in worked matches. They took place in a four-sided ring, typically were 2/3 falls bouts, were notoriously long, and the falls could end by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat. Oh, and Hackenshmidt's pre-wrestling background was as a strongman, not as any sort of martial artist. His big appeal was his physique and (in America) his "evil foreigner" status, and his signature move was a bearhug. Don't know that he was ever actually slapped with a "World's Strongest Man" gimmick, but pretty clear that he was a guy sold on gimmicks rather than legit fighting prowess. I'm inclined to think that were either man alive today, they'd recognize MMA as something completely different, and identify wrestling as "their sport", albeit begrudgingly, since it's been ruined by these fancy tumblers and whatnot. They'd have the same reaction that so many other old-timers have to today's wrestling - it's what they were doing, but it's been RUINED FOREVER! for various reasons.

[jdw]

What SLL and Dan said.

 

John