Dave Meltzer stuff

[sek69]

But it's stuff he's continuing to say, and using everyone talking about the WK 11 match to get himself over at Omega's expense. He acts like he's the Arbiter of What's Acceptable in Wrestling and goes on a bitchfest when someone doesn't meet his standards.

[stro]

Who gives a shit about what he acts like? Kenny Omega is headlining dome shows. KO is the WWE champ for 6 months. Jim Cornette is ranting on Youtube and podcasts. What Jim Cornette says doesn't matter to anyone but himself and dudes with ultra thin skin who can't get past it even when they're extremely successful and proved him wrong.

[sek69]

I'd imagine because everyone was probably asking about it and he felt the need to address it. There's still a fairly large section of fans online who still think Cornette can do no wrong because he managed the Midnights and booked SMW. I'm not sure why people still think that since his body of work since the mid 90s has not been that impressive.

[stro]

I don't think there is any kind of sizable group of online fans that care at all about SMW, nor are the people watching and enjoying Kevin and Kenny going to have their minds changed by a dude who hasn't been relevant for closing in on 30 years being upset about shit when he's entire gimmick is that he's upset about everything all the time.

 

"Everyone" asking Cornette about anything is in reality a very niche group of an already niche group. And in the end, Cornette has absolutely ZERO influence on anything going on in wrestling today. He can rant and rave and put out 700 shoot videos a year. No company in the wrestling industry is going to cater who they book and how based on the rantings of Jim Cornette in 2017. Gedo is not going to stop booking Kenny because of Jim's stories. Vince is not going to fire KO because of Jim's stories. He holds absolutely no influence in the business today. It's the equivalent of thinking Ole Anderson's pissed off, bitter ramblings meant anything to anyone other than him.

 

Kenny, Kevin, and the Bucks need to move on. They proved Jim wrong long, long ago.

[rzombie1988]

Who gives a shit about what he acts like? Kenny Omega is headlining dome shows. KO is the WWE champ for 6 months. Jim Cornette is ranting on Youtube and podcasts. What Jim Cornette says doesn't matter to anyone but himself and dudes with ultra thin skin who can't get past it even when they're extremely successful and proved him wrong.

They haven't proven Cornette wrong.

 

Cornette liked Owens. He just thought he was overweight and was getting injured by doing dumb stuff.

 

Omega drew one of the lowest drawing Dome shows of all-time at 26k and Owens isn't exactly spiking ratings, in a WWE world where the ratings have been on the decline for over 15 years.

 

Bucks have done okay for Indy guys but their peak is 2,000 fans.

[stro]

 

Who gives a shit about what he acts like? Kenny Omega is headlining dome shows. KO is the WWE champ for 6 months. Jim Cornette is ranting on Youtube and podcasts. What Jim Cornette says doesn't matter to anyone but himself and dudes with ultra thin skin who can't get past it even when they're extremely successful and proved him wrong.

They haven't proven Cornette wrong.

 

Omega and Owens might be headliners, but they are headliners in a declining wrestling period. Omega/Okada drew one of the smaller Domes ever at only 26,000.

 

Yeah well, Bret, Nash, and HBK were headliners in a declining and dead wrestling period. Does that mean they weren't important or successful? Do you think they feel it doesn't count since the business wasn't as hot as it was a few years prior and a few years after? Kenny Omega just main evented a Tokyo Dome show for the title in front of 26,000 people in a match that the most famous wrestling critic and reviewer gave 6 stars to. Kevin Owens was just in a title match at the Royal Rumble in front of 50,000 people. Why do they give such a shit about what ONE asshole who, at his absolute peak, never was performing in front of crowds those sizes has to say about them? I'm sure Kevin's pay check from merch alone per year is more than Cornette was making in his prime in JCP.

[sek69]

"Bucks have done okay". So now making more money than they would in WWE is just okay now. *insert Jennifer Lawrence okay gif*

[rzombie1988]

 

 

Who gives a shit about what he acts like? Kenny Omega is headlining dome shows. KO is the WWE champ for 6 months. Jim Cornette is ranting on Youtube and podcasts. What Jim Cornette says doesn't matter to anyone but himself and dudes with ultra thin skin who can't get past it even when they're extremely successful and proved him wrong.

They haven't proven Cornette wrong.

 

Omega and Owens might be headliners, but they are headliners in a declining wrestling period. Omega/Okada drew one of the smaller Domes ever at only 26,000.

 

Yeah well, Bret, Nash, and HBK were headliners in a declining and dead wrestling period. Does that mean they weren't important or successful? Do you think they feel it doesn't count since the business wasn't as hot as it was a few years prior and a few years after? Kenny Omega just main evented a Tokyo Dome show for the title in front of 26,000 people in a match that the most famous wrestling critic and reviewer gave 6 stars to. Kevin Owens was just in a title match at the Royal Rumble in front of 50,000 people. Why do they give such a shit about what ONE asshole who, at his absolute peak, never was performing in front of crowds those sizes has to say about them? I'm sure Kevin's pay check from merch alone per year is more than Cornette was making in his prime in JCP.

 

I'll bet you when it's all said and done, more people will know Nash, Hart and HBK than they will Kevin Owens.

 

There's been a lot of matches over the years that were great and Dave gave no time or care to. There's people like Ayumi Kurihara who never even had one match reviewed. That was one of Dave's most bizarre ratings ever and makes me questions his ratings all together.

 

They shouldn't care about what Cornette has to say much like he doesn't care what they have to say.

 

I would hope Owen's worldwide merch makes more than Cornette's US only pay did.

 

"Bucks have done okay". So now making more money than they would in WWE is just okay now. *insert Jennifer Lawrence okay gif*

Who knows what they make, but it's not that hard to make above $40,000 a year on a developmental deal. Tyler Bate is making $20k/year.

[stro]

 

 

 

Who gives a shit about what he acts like? Kenny Omega is headlining dome shows. KO is the WWE champ for 6 months. Jim Cornette is ranting on Youtube and podcasts. What Jim Cornette says doesn't matter to anyone but himself and dudes with ultra thin skin who can't get past it even when they're extremely successful and proved him wrong.

They haven't proven Cornette wrong.

 

Omega and Owens might be headliners, but they are headliners in a declining wrestling period. Omega/Okada drew one of the smaller Domes ever at only 26,000.

 

Yeah well, Bret, Nash, and HBK were headliners in a declining and dead wrestling period. Does that mean they weren't important or successful? Do you think they feel it doesn't count since the business wasn't as hot as it was a few years prior and a few years after? Kenny Omega just main evented a Tokyo Dome show for the title in front of 26,000 people in a match that the most famous wrestling critic and reviewer gave 6 stars to. Kevin Owens was just in a title match at the Royal Rumble in front of 50,000 people. Why do they give such a shit about what ONE asshole who, at his absolute peak, never was performing in front of crowds those sizes has to say about them? I'm sure Kevin's pay check from merch alone per year is more than Cornette was making in his prime in JCP.

 

I'll bet you when it's all said and done, more people will know Nash, Hart and HBK than they will Kevin Owens.

 

There's been a lot of matches over the years that were great and Dave gave no time or care to. There's people like Ayumi Kurihara who never even had one match reviewed. That was one of Dave's most bizarre ratings ever and makes me questions his ratings all together.

 

They shouldn't care about what Cornette has to say much like he doesn't care what they have to say.

 

I would hope Owen's worldwide merch makes more than Cornette's US only pay did.

 

"Bucks have done okay". So now making more money than they would in WWE is just okay now. *insert Jennifer Lawrence okay gif*

Who knows what they make, but it's not that hard to make above $40,000 a year on a developmental deal. Tyler Bate is making $20k/year.

 

Then I don't even know what you're trying to argue here. Bret, HBK, and Nash were headlining WWF in its worst period ever. Yet if they're more remembered than KO, then what does it matter if KO is a headliner in a declining period? To say either are not successful when they're headliners in the top two companies in their profession because said companies aren't as popular as they were at other times is asinine.

[NintendoLogic]

Meltzer said today that the reason that so many mexican wrestlers are well into their 50s and 60s and having long careers is not due to style, but due to economic necessity.

 

I think he was saying more that Mexican fans are more willing to pay to see wrestlers in their 50s and 60s. But he missed the point of the question, which is why so many more luchadores are able to perform at a high level at an advanced age. The thing is, I don't know how true that is from a percentage standpoint. A big part of it is that there are many times more active wrestlers in Mexico than in the US and Japan.

[rzombie1988]

 

 

 

 

Who gives a shit about what he acts like? Kenny Omega is headlining dome shows. KO is the WWE champ for 6 months. Jim Cornette is ranting on Youtube and podcasts. What Jim Cornette says doesn't matter to anyone but himself and dudes with ultra thin skin who can't get past it even when they're extremely successful and proved him wrong.

They haven't proven Cornette wrong.

 

Omega and Owens might be headliners, but they are headliners in a declining wrestling period. Omega/Okada drew one of the smaller Domes ever at only 26,000.

 

Yeah well, Bret, Nash, and HBK were headliners in a declining and dead wrestling period. Does that mean they weren't important or successful? Do you think they feel it doesn't count since the business wasn't as hot as it was a few years prior and a few years after? Kenny Omega just main evented a Tokyo Dome show for the title in front of 26,000 people in a match that the most famous wrestling critic and reviewer gave 6 stars to. Kevin Owens was just in a title match at the Royal Rumble in front of 50,000 people. Why do they give such a shit about what ONE asshole who, at his absolute peak, never was performing in front of crowds those sizes has to say about them? I'm sure Kevin's pay check from merch alone per year is more than Cornette was making in his prime in JCP.

 

I'll bet you when it's all said and done, more people will know Nash, Hart and HBK than they will Kevin Owens.

 

There's been a lot of matches over the years that were great and Dave gave no time or care to. There's people like Ayumi Kurihara who never even had one match reviewed. That was one of Dave's most bizarre ratings ever and makes me questions his ratings all together.

 

They shouldn't care about what Cornette has to say much like he doesn't care what they have to say.

 

I would hope Owen's worldwide merch makes more than Cornette's US only pay did.

 

"Bucks have done okay". So now making more money than they would in WWE is just okay now. *insert Jennifer Lawrence okay gif*

Who knows what they make, but it's not that hard to make above $40,000 a year on a developmental deal. Tyler Bate is making $20k/year.

 

Then I don't even know what you're trying to argue here. Bret, HBK, and Nash were headlining WWF in its worst period ever. Yet if they're more remembered than KO, then what does it matter if KO is a headliner in a declining period? To say either are not successful when they're headliners in the top two companies in their profession because said companies aren't as popular as they were at other times is asinine.

 

Would that Rumble show have drawn any different if Owens weren't on the card? No. The Rumble's name drew that house. Could anyone have been inserted into that role and it would have drawn the same? Most likely.

 

WWE is a brand driven draw right now, and it's having one of its worst drawing periods ever. But I'm still willing to bet people like Shawn and Bret were still more relevant then than Kevin Owens is today.

 

Owens is a replaceable piece in a company filled with replaceable pieces, by design.

[stro]

HBK, Bret, and Nash were also replaceable pieces, and they were all replaced by people who were more popular and did better business. Everyone is replaceable in wrestling, especially WWE.

[cheapshot]

They've yet to replace Cena as the top babyface who can draw, and oh they've tried.

[rzombie1988]

They've yet to replace Cena as the top babyface who can draw, and oh they've tried.

They've tried with Reigns and uh, Reigns. Did I mention Reigns? Who else have they really tried with?

 

They waited too long to give Daniel Bryan a shot despite him being the most over guy in the company. The first time they gave him the belt, he lost it seconds later to MITB Orton, then the title got held up soon after. Then they tried to turn him heel, then the crowd revolted and they let him win at Mania, then he got injured and that was it. Not totally WWE's fault, but they could have done better.

[rzombie1988]

HBK, Bret, and Nash were also replaceable pieces, and they were all replaced by people who were more popular and did better business. Everyone is replaceable in wrestling, especially WWE.

I disagree with that. I don't know what becomes of WWF in the New Generation era if there is no HBK or Bret.

[PhilTLL]

Kenny Omega just main evented a Tokyo Dome show for the title in front of 26,000 people in a match that the most famous wrestling critic and reviewer gave 6 stars to. Kevin Owens was just in a title match at the Royal Rumble in front of 50,000 people. Why do they give such a shit about what ONE asshole who, at his absolute peak, never was performing in front of crowds those sizes has to say about them?

Just an aside, this is factually questionable. Cornette may never have appeared in front of 50,000 per se, but he certainly was on plenty of 10-30k cards. And if we want to start comparing the average nights in the respective company/years instead of the peak nights, Cornette looks even better.

[Sean Liska]

Off the top of my head, Watts/JYD-Midnights in New Orelans and the 86 GAB show in Charlotte were in front of at least 25k.

[PhilTLL]

Reunion Christmas '84 for 20k, Cotton Bowl 5/85 for 26k, Starrcade '85 and '86 which each drew over 30k combined live and 30-40k in CCTV, Starrcade '87 which is listed as a million-dollar gate after CCTV, etc.

 

Not off the top of my head, ha.

[Cap]

I think comparing drawing across periods is largely fruitless. Not only do you have the averages issues just brought up above, but there are just so many factors that go into the ebbs and flows of wrestling and its always felt to me like that has been disproportionately put on individual performers (for the good and the bad). Comparing even Hart/HBK/Nash to Owens/Rollins/Styles (or whatever) is apples and oranges. Wrestling's position in popular culture is completely different. WWE's business and goals are different. Even the way the product is mediated is different. The E has always worked hard to be a brand-first promotion so they hold all the leverage over their stars it feels like they have gotten more aggressive with that since branding techniques shifted during the social media booms and they started moving toward the network. They have needed stars to transcend the brand for their biggest boom periods and of course they make bank on that, but as far as really giving their talent the space to build their own momentum I don't get the impression that they are really THAT interested and really haven't for some time. It seems particularly pronounced since they moved to the network model, so I think today's stars are just being a dealt a different hand.

 

I honestly can't bring myself to care much about drawing and numbers, though. I mean I get why they are important to understand historically, but as a fan its pretty low on my give a shit list, so I am probably way off base.

[shakla]

Maybe I missed something, but when is the awards issue coming out? Seems like it's usually out by now.

[Loss]

I do think part of drawing is the guys who are headlining, probably the biggest part, but I also think there are extraneous factors that do make a difference that are rarely brought up in such discussions. It's hard to discuss anyone's drawing power at a high level unless you are talking about someone iconic like Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin. Most headliners have good periods and bad periods, good towns and bad towns, good opponents and bad opponents, etc. To me, to really look at drawing, you have to also look at things like ticket prices, weather, the local economy, crime where the arena is located, air conditioning and heating in the building, the booking of the last show in the building, night of the week and time of the year. I think you also have to, when possible, even look at differences in how the show was advertised. Maybe the last show did 10,000 with primarily television advertising. This time, most advertising was on the radio and the show did 8,000. You can't really blame that on the performers. Maybe a market lost syndication, or it was moved to a less desirable time slot. That stuff of course requires a lot of deep digging.

 

I remember reading a story that fascinated me. Sting vs Luger headlined a show in Raleigh, NC, on New Year's Day in January 1990 that did the best WCW gate in that town in 18 months. The WWF noticed and hired away their local promoters who were longtime Carolinas mainstays. Their assigned mission was to fight dirty. Within weeks, WCW lost one of their syndicated shows in Raleigh, and the other show was moved to 3am. WCW came back three weeks later and attendance dropped by 75% with a Flair-Luger main event. Looking at those numbers with no context, you'd come away thinking Flair's time on top was up and that he needed to be replaced with Sting when that really didn't tell the whole story. And sadly, I think, mostly because of necessity and lack of information, that's often how we look at drawing. We have less information and come up with faulty conclusions. For every story like that, there are probably 50 or 60 more.

[Mad Dog]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who gives a shit about what he acts like? Kenny Omega is headlining dome shows. KO is the WWE champ for 6 months. Jim Cornette is ranting on Youtube and podcasts. What Jim Cornette says doesn't matter to anyone but himself and dudes with ultra thin skin who can't get past it even when they're extremely successful and proved him wrong.

They haven't proven Cornette wrong.

 

Omega and Owens might be headliners, but they are headliners in a declining wrestling period. Omega/Okada drew one of the smaller Domes ever at only 26,000.

Yeah well, Bret, Nash, and HBK were headliners in a declining and dead wrestling period. Does that mean they weren't important or successful? Do you think they feel it doesn't count since the business wasn't as hot as it was a few years prior and a few years after? Kenny Omega just main evented a Tokyo Dome show for the title in front of 26,000 people in a match that the most famous wrestling critic and reviewer gave 6 stars to. Kevin Owens was just in a title match at the Royal Rumble in front of 50,000 people. Why do they give such a shit about what ONE asshole who, at his absolute peak, never was performing in front of crowds those sizes has to say about them? I'm sure Kevin's pay check from merch alone per year is more than Cornette was making in his prime in JCP.

I'll bet you when it's all said and done, more people will know Nash, Hart and HBK than they will Kevin Owens.

 

There's been a lot of matches over the years that were great and Dave gave no time or care to. There's people like Ayumi Kurihara who never even had one match reviewed. That was one of Dave's most bizarre ratings ever and makes me questions his ratings all together.

 

They shouldn't care about what Cornette has to say much like he doesn't care what they have to say.

 

I would hope Owen's worldwide merch makes more than Cornette's US only pay did.

"Bucks have done okay". So now making more money than they would in WWE is just okay now. *insert Jennifer Lawrence okay gif*

Who knows what they make, but it's not that hard to make above $40,000 a year on a developmental deal. Tyler Bate is making $20k/year.

They're making well into six figure territory right now and that's not counting the merchandise. They pretty much have conned RoH into giving them the keys to the castle.

[Matt D]

Re: the JYD/Tommy Rich HOF candidacies: I'm fascinated why the May 14, 1982 Houston show apparently drew so poorly that Boesch was thinking of going out of business. On top was JYD vs Bock for the AWA title and a big angle cage match between Tommy Rich and Gino Hernandez where Boesch would kiss Gino's foot if Rich won (and presumably the stip would be reversed otherwise). This stemmed from Gino interfering in Rich's AWA title shot back in March. Having seen some (but not all) of the build and just hot a heel Gino and Tully seemed at the time, as well as the fact that Rich wasn't just a national star but was decently positioned as his "aw, shucks" genuine self in Houston/Southwest, I don't get why it didn't work. Apparently it really didn't though. I don't know if it was just that Rich didn't transfer or what.

 

Boesch @ Houston, TX – Sam Houston Coliseum – May 14, 1982
Hacksaw Duggan d. Ricky Morton
Scott Casey d. Killer Brooks
Superstar Billy Graham d. Jimmy Golden
Bob Sweetan d. Ken Lucas
Scott Casey, Jimmy Golden, Ken Lucas, & Ricky Morton d. Hacksaw Duggan, Superstar Billy Graham, Killer Brooks, & Bob Sweetan
Manny Fernandez battled Mil Mascaras to a DDQ
Wahoo McDaniel d. Tully Blanchard
Gino Hernandez d. Tommy Rich
AWA World Heavyewight Title: Junkyard Dog d. Nick Bockwinkel © by DQ

[TravJ1979]

Dave has been doing f4wonline.com for how long now? He REALLY needs to learn how to correctly format hyperlinks.

 

the RNR story on CBSSPORTS.COM

 

http://www.cbssports.com/general/news/rock-n-roll-express-to-be-inducted-into-wwe-hall-of-fame-class-of-2017/

 

(Dave forgot the colon after http)

[Flyin' Brian]

Re: the JYD/Tommy Rich HOF candidacies: I'm fascinated why the May 14, 1982 Houston show apparently drew so poorly that Boesch was thinking of going out of business. On top was JYD vs Bock for the AWA title and a big angle cage match between Tommy Rich and Gino Hernandez where Boesch would kiss Gino's foot if Rich won (and presumably the stip would be reversed otherwise). This stemmed from Gino interfering in Rich's AWA title shot back in March. Having seen some (but not all) of the build and just hot a heel Gino and Tully seemed at the time, as well as the fact that Rich wasn't just a national star but was decently positioned as his "aw, shucks" genuine self in Houston/Southwest, I don't get why it didn't work. Apparently it really didn't though. I don't know if it was just that Rich didn't transfer or what.

 

Boesch @ Houston, TX – Sam Houston Coliseum – May 14, 1982

Hacksaw Duggan d. Ricky Morton

Scott Casey d. Killer Brooks

Superstar Billy Graham d. Jimmy Golden

Bob Sweetan d. Ken Lucas

Scott Casey, Jimmy Golden, Ken Lucas, & Ricky Morton d. Hacksaw Duggan, Superstar Billy Graham, Killer Brooks, & Bob Sweetan

Manny Fernandez battled Mil Mascaras to a DDQ

Wahoo McDaniel d. Tully Blanchard

Gino Hernandez d. Tommy Rich

AWA World Heavyewight Title: Junkyard Dog d. Nick Bockwinkel © by DQ

 

That looks like an amazing card. Guess for some reason Rich and JYD just didn't translate or resonate with the Houston fans. Is there data showing attendance figures for shows around that time?