Dave Meltzer stuff

[Fando]

 

One thing too is that people will go in on Dave for throwing stars at "tons of moves and nearfalls" whatever, but this match didn't really fit into that cliche. They did a lot for over an hour of course, but in the last fall Okada's entire offense was: 4 dropkicks, 4 clotheslines, 1 german suplex. Omega went for more flashy moves like a phoenix splash and styles clash but in between it was mostly palm strikes and knees. There are only three nearfalls in the last 3rd of the match.

 

This is an interesting point. Because even though it's true the last fall was as minimalistic (sp?) as a New Japan main event has been in the last 7 years or so, the first two falls, and specially the first one, had a TON of excess of moves and kickouts. The match probably isn't seen as the best ever without that initial dose of "tons of moves and nearfalls" that lasted longer than the simple finishing stretch it had.

 

I guess it could be seen as the best of both worlds? I tuned out for most of the first two falls because it isn't what I like but I can totally understand were people are coming from with the praise the match got.

 

 

Might be risking going off topic now, but I can't agree with this 100%. There were tons of moves but comparatively few pin attempts during the first two falls, mostly because they were selling the damage it took executing them on each other. On a quick rewatch I counted maybe 13 pin attempts with maybe half being what I'd call actual dramatic nearfalls, and that didn't seem too excessive in the context of trying to score the all important first fall. In the second fall I counted 3(!) pin attempts included the OWA for the fall. A lot more time was spent out of the ring, in the cobra clutch, both guys down etc.So it really built in a logically way where they were so almost too worn down to capitalize until one guy was completely dead.

[Migs]

 

To me, this was the more stunning thing about the WON this week, more than the 7* rating:

 

 

 

On January 4, 2017, Kazuchika Okada and Kenny Omega had a match that I thought was one of the three best matches I had ever seen, perhaps the best ever. Some people thought it was the best match they had ever seen. But when it was over, I did think that someday I would see another match that good. The top guys in the industry today keep progressing the drama, art form and athleticism. Don’t get me wrong, anything that is great in its actual place and time is great. But what is great today learns from not only what is great in the past, but what is great all over the world in its present. It’s a situation that until the last few decades, that really couldn’t happen, but it’s easier now than ever before because you just push a few buttons and you can learn far more things that can work and apply them.

 

 

I do think this is a fair point about what has led to some of the most praised matches over the last several years. The DIY-Revival matches read to me like they sat down, watched a shit ton of the best tag wrestling ever, and just incorporated all the finishes as near falls. And I think that's going to be a bit of a trend, because now the guys that are obsessed with history have everything at their fingertips in a way that really hasn't been true until recently.

[Loss]

There's nothing wrong with that. It's often a good thing. But the phrasing reads like you can now become a great worker if you just sign up with the University of Phoenix and watch their online training course matches. It also suggests that wrestlers in the past never learned from other places.

[Grimmas]

This is fake right?

 

[Loss]

It's not.

[Grimmas]

It's not.

Wow. At least he resisted the people making the arguments and only went with 7 stars instead of 17.

[Sean Liska]

Love Dave and will always sub but we're at a point where he could give something 10 stars and it wouldn't be enough to motivate me to watch the match unless I wanted to see it anyways. That's hard for me because in the 90s I really cared about those ratings but oh well, stuff changes as you age.

[sek69]

In the 90s Dave ratings were most people's only sources of knowing if something was good or not. In 2018, there's more options. Dave's ratings aren't good or bad, they just are. If Dave gives something eleventy stars and it's not a style I like, I'm not going to magically like it because he did. Conversely, if he dislikes something I liked (which happens a lot), it doesn't mean I have to stop liking it.

[Mrzfn]

I find the "scale breaking" thing silly but ultimately inconsequential, and I don't really mind what Meltzer wants to rate anything. It is weird to think that you could be in a discussion with someone who is offended if you consider Okada/Omega IV to be "only" 5 star though. Maybe that's just a sign not to talk to that person about wrestling, or at least in the context of star ratings.

[Loss]

I think this headline, the body of the article, and even the possibility that WWE is trying to appeal to NJPW fans says everything that needs to be said about why people care. (This is not a criticism of the article, but it is an example of a reporter, Dave, creating/being the story in a lot of ways.) Create the narrative, then report on the narrative. It's so intrinsic that a lot of people don't see it.

 

https://www.f4wonline.com/wwe-news/kenny-omega-match-added-wwe-network-hidden-gems-259676

[Grimmas]

. If Dave gives something eleventy stars and it's not a style I like, I'm not going to magically like it because he did. Conversely, if he dislikes something I liked (which happens a lot), it doesn't mean I have to stop liking it.

I see people say variations on this a lot on a way to quell other's complaints. However the issue is not Dave's tastes, the issue is having an actual star system that people can use to rate matches, like people do with movies or albums, etc...

[Jmare007]

If part of your enjoyment of wrestling is the social interaction with other fans through whatever medium, then this is important because more people have seen Misawa-Kawada than a match like, say, Yoshiko Tamura vs Toshie Uematsu from GAEA in 1997, which I gave 5* and I don't think Dave ever rated. Which match would it be easier to have a conversation with someone about?

 

In my experience, 90% or more of the conversations I have about wrestling (online and in real life) are about WWE and mainstream US wrestling. The people I can talk about Misawa/Kawada are the same that would have no issue checking for Tamura if I asked about him or recommended to watch some of his matches. And that number has gotten bigger in the last few years as it gets easier and easier to go into deep dives into anything that interest people.

 

I understand your larger point though. Specially because we now have wrestlers that try to cater to Dave's tastes to get a big rating, maybe more than ever. I guess I just struggle with the thought of Dave and his views being so important because besides this board, I've found way more people that either laugh about his ratings, don't take it so seriously or understand he just loves New Japan and the Young Bucks.

 

 

 

 

One thing too is that people will go in on Dave for throwing stars at "tons of moves and nearfalls" whatever, but this match didn't really fit into that cliche. They did a lot for over an hour of course, but in the last fall Okada's entire offense was: 4 dropkicks, 4 clotheslines, 1 german suplex. Omega went for more flashy moves like a phoenix splash and styles clash but in between it was mostly palm strikes and knees. There are only three nearfalls in the last 3rd of the match.

 

This is an interesting point. Because even though it's true the last fall was as minimalistic (sp?) as a New Japan main event has been in the last 7 years or so, the first two falls, and specially the first one, had a TON of excess of moves and kickouts. The match probably isn't seen as the best ever without that initial dose of "tons of moves and nearfalls" that lasted longer than the simple finishing stretch it had.

 

I guess it could be seen as the best of both worlds? I tuned out for most of the first two falls because it isn't what I like but I can totally understand were people are coming from with the praise the match got.

 

 

Might be risking going off topic now, but I can't agree with this 100%. There were tons of moves but comparatively few pin attempts during the first two falls, mostly because they were selling the damage it took executing them on each other. On a quick rewatch I counted maybe 13 pin attempts with maybe half being what I'd call actual dramatic nearfalls, and that didn't seem too excessive in the context of trying to score the all important first fall. In the second fall I counted 3(!) pin attempts included the OWA for the fall. A lot more time was spent out of the ring, in the cobra clutch, both guys down etc.So it really built in a logically way where they were so almost too worn down to capitalize until one guy was completely dead.

 

 

Good post, didn't feel like that at first watch.

[Loss]

I don't mean in person, by the way. I don't really interact with a lot of fans in person, although I do some. Even on here, it's more difficult. That's what I mean. Cannon shapes everything when you have a hobby like this. I don't want to hit this too hard and don't plan to post anymore about it, but I just wanted to be clear.

[Loss]

I think this headline, the body of the article, and even the possibility that WWE is trying to appeal to NJPW fans says everything that needs to be said about why people care. (This is not a criticism of the article, but it is an example of a reporter, Dave, creating/being the story in a lot of ways.) Create the narrative, then report on the narrative. It's so intrinsic that a lot of people don't see it.

 

https://www.f4wonline.com/wwe-news/kenny-omega-match-added-wwe-network-hidden-gems-259676

 

I'm wrong in this post, in a sign I was inside a big bubble in how I was looking at this. The story wasn't newsworthy because Dave just gave his match a 7* rating. It was newsworthy because he's the IWGP champion. Ok, now I'm really done.

[sek69]

Funny thing is WWE is only adding Kenny Omega matches because the New Day and the Elite were having a Street Fighter battle at E3.

[Childs]

 

If part of your enjoyment of wrestling is the social interaction with other fans through whatever medium, then this is important because more people have seen Misawa-Kawada than a match like, say, Yoshiko Tamura vs Toshie Uematsu from GAEA in 1997, which I gave 5* and I don't think Dave ever rated. Which match would it be easier to have a conversation with someone about?

 

In my experience, 90% or more of the conversations I have about wrestling (online and in real life) are about WWE and mainstream US wrestling. The people I can talk about Misawa/Kawada are the same that would have no issue checking for Tamura if I asked about him or recommended to watch some of his matches. And that number has gotten bigger in the last few years as it gets easier and easier to go into deep dives into anything that interest people.

 

I understand your larger point though. Specially because we now have wrestlers that try to cater to Dave's tastes to get a big rating, maybe more than ever. I guess I just struggle with the thought of Dave and his views being so important because besides this board, I've found way more people that either laugh about his ratings, don't take it so seriously or understand he just loves New Japan and the Young Bucks.

 

 

 

 

One thing too is that people will go in on Dave for throwing stars at "tons of moves and nearfalls" whatever, but this match didn't really fit into that cliche. They did a lot for over an hour of course, but in the last fall Okada's entire offense was: 4 dropkicks, 4 clotheslines, 1 german suplex. Omega went for more flashy moves like a phoenix splash and styles clash but in between it was mostly palm strikes and knees. There are only three nearfalls in the last 3rd of the match.

 

This is an interesting point. Because even though it's true the last fall was as minimalistic (sp?) as a New Japan main event has been in the last 7 years or so, the first two falls, and specially the first one, had a TON of excess of moves and kickouts. The match probably isn't seen as the best ever without that initial dose of "tons of moves and nearfalls" that lasted longer than the simple finishing stretch it had.

 

I guess it could be seen as the best of both worlds? I tuned out for most of the first two falls because it isn't what I like but I can totally understand were people are coming from with the praise the match got.

 

 

Might be risking going off topic now, but I can't agree with this 100%. There were tons of moves but comparatively few pin attempts during the first two falls, mostly because they were selling the damage it took executing them on each other. On a quick rewatch I counted maybe 13 pin attempts with maybe half being what I'd call actual dramatic nearfalls, and that didn't seem too excessive in the context of trying to score the all important first fall. In the second fall I counted 3(!) pin attempts included the OWA for the fall. A lot more time was spent out of the ring, in the cobra clutch, both guys down etc.So it really built in a logically way where they were so almost too worn down to capitalize until one guy was completely dead.

 

 

Good post, didn't feel like that at first watch.

 

 

I'm fairly prone to going numb during near-fall-happy bomb fests, and that never happened to me with this match. I thought they were particularly smart in the way they hung onto and ultimately deployed their finishers. For a match with so much going on, it was unusually well-constructed.

 

I agree that the 7 stars thing is silly. It should be enough to give it 5 stars and says it's the best of its time. I also don't buy that it's on another scale of greatness from something like Gargano-Almas.

[sek69]

In news from the "Oh God, I'm So Old" Department, Dave had a tidbit in the new WON that Rey's son Dominic is 21 (!!!) and will be going to train at Lance Storm's school in September.

[KawadaSmile]

 

You know, he can keep his stars and do whatever, it's his own scale.

 

But, my God. That first paragraph is some rough stuff.

[PeteF3]

Like I said in the New Japan thread, there are reasonable points to be made on both sides of this argument, and Dave has made some of them--but that basketball analogy needs to go into the circular file like, yesterday.

[Bix]

I didn't know male wrestlers were a marginalized group.

 

Like I said in the New Japan thread, there are reasonable points to be made on both sides of this argument, and Dave has made some of them--but that basketball analogy needs to go into the circular file like, yesterday.

 

 

My favorite part was during the Twitter arguments when he said he already addressed people mentioning MMA earlier. He hadn't.

 

Look, obviously it would need to be thought through VERY carefully. You wouldn't want to kill off the existing women's groups. But so much of what's changed in Japanese wrestling is, in the grand scheme of things, due to changes in the country's media landscape. The one company with network TV (even in a bad time slot) is by far the top group in a country where pay TV adoption is negligible, and everyone else isn't able to pick up the slack from print media exposure anymore. It's not a coincidence that Pro Wrestling Noah went from a legitimate top promotion (albeit in something of a slump) to being in trouble basically overnight when NTV cancelled it's 50+ year wrestling tradition. Newspaper and magazine exposure were a huge part of the scene in Japan, but, well, it's 2018. The women's scene falling off a lot more steeply than everyone else had a lot to do with the number of promotional splits, yes, but can AJW losing Fuji TV in 2002 really be discounted, either?

 

It's a different world. NJPW is trying to be an international company and the females presence on cards being scantily clad valets who the cameras shamelessly leer at isn't going to fly everywhere. Especially not in countries where the response to a subway groping epidemic would be more than "let's open up women-only subway cars." Better to act BEFORE it actually becomes an issue that impedes the expansion. Especially when all of the other major promotions worldwide, including their sister promotions, have women's divisions.

[Coffey]

Love Dave and will always sub but we're at a point where he could give something 10 stars and it wouldn't be enough to motivate me to watch the match unless I wanted to see it anyways.

 

At this point, we're all familiar with the majority of any participating members for matches that the major promotions could come up with. We already know what The Young Bucks, Cody Rhodes, Kenny Omega, Kazuchika Okada, etc. are capable of and if we're a fan of what they do, or if we like their individual styles. Personally speaking, regardless of what rating Dave Meltzer gives a match featuring someone like, say, Zack Sabre, Jr., I know I'm not going to like it the same way that he might. Just different tastes and different wants from professional wrestling. That is not to say that it is not interesting to see Dave's hype train rolling down the tracks full speed ahead but I do think it raises expectations to the point where some fans go into a match or show with a mental bar that can not be met. When a match gets a rating that high, your expectation goes from "this should be pretty good!" to "so, this is the best match of all-time, huh?" At least for me, it makes me watch shit differently, too. Like I go in more jaded & looking for flaws instead of just getting sucked into the story of the match & going for the ride. That's why I hate spoilers so much. I don't want to do that, I'm not looking to do that.. but that's what happens. I can't alter the inner monologue that formulates from the expectations created via praise & hype.

 

I certainly have my own preferences & am more than capable of formulating my own opinions on wrestling. Shit, I've been watching for thirty years, I know what I like & dislike at this point. At the same time, I'm not naive enough to believe that it doesn't affect me in some way when I go into a match already hearing all the hype before I ever watch it.

 

Dave Meltzer's star ratings do still make people pay attention & I think that's part of the reason why the scale is getting so wonky now. If he just gave Okada/Omega 5-stars, I don't know if it would have made anyone bat an eye. He had to do it in a way that made people think "well, he thinks it's better than the last one." If Dave gave a Big Show match 5-stars, people would pay attention. It's all about expectations & previous work in combination with a wrestling journalist trying to get people to pay attention. To me, this is Dave saying with numbers that this isn't just a good or great match, this is a match that you need to go out of your way to watch. It's important to see it to see the direction that pro-wrestling is going & what the cream of the crop from that direction are capable of doing.

[sek69]

 

 

Especially when all of the other major promotions worldwide, including their sister promotions, have women's divisions.

 

FWIW, you probably don't want to use CMLL as an example of how to do a women's divison.

[Grimmas]

 

Especially when all of the other major promotions worldwide, including their sister promotions, have women's divisions.

 

FWIW, you probably don't want to use CMLL as an example of how to do a women's divison.

 

Very true or how to treat women in general.

[sek69]

As far as I know, I don't think the women get treated badly, it's just the usual CMLL way of doing things where unless you're related to someone important you get forgotten about until you leave.

[Grimmas]

As far as I know, I don't think the women get treated badly, it's just the usual CMLL way of doing things where unless you're related to someone important you get forgotten about until you leave.

I just meant they have a huge slew of women whose whole purpose is to wear almost nothing and dance around as the camera man zooms in on their asses.