The Thread Killer

I dressed as 1992 Shawn Michaels at a Halloween party and got laid after. Then I sold the costume on eBay for 400 dollars. It was awesome. That's totally different. That's wearing a costume to a costume party. Being a grown adult and dressing up like a wrestler when you are going to a live event, especially when you know the event is going to be televised, is basically just trying to bring attention to yourself - it's the equivilent of standing on your chair and screaming "hey everybody, look at me!" In other words, quite lame, in my opinion. Rumor has it that it was Kevin Dunn who ordered the costumed fans removed. From everything I have heard/read about Kevin Dunn, he is a jerk and I have little to no use for his decisions and opinions on pro wrestling. However, in his capacity as a television producer, he made the right decision in this case. When you are broadcasting a live event, you remove anything from the shot that is distracting the viewer from focusing on the action at hand. What those costumed fans were doing was the same as somebody walking up behing a reporter who is doing a live remote, and making faces at the camera, or jumping up and down. They were taking away from the shot, so they were stopped from doing so. Dunn wanted people at home watching the ring, not trying to figure who the guys in the outfits were, what they were doing there, and if they were part of the show.

I feel if you're a grown person who feels the need to dress up like Sting, Goldust, or any other wrestler when you go to a live event, not only should you be barred from entering the arena, you should also be legally prohibited from reproducing. Having said that, it's a safe bet that guys who dress up like wrestlers are unlikely to ever have any form of sexual contact with a consenting female that doesn't involve money changing hands first, so perhaps the no reproduction law would be overkill.

Late to the party on this point, but I want to agree that Silas Young is all kinds of awesome. His injury couldn't have come at a worse time, since Steen gave him the rub on the way out. I am hoping ROH plans to push him to the moon when he returns. ProWrestling.net is reporting that WWE has signed Jimmy Jacobs to work in a behind the scenes capacity in NXT "soon", and that Joe will actually be going to WWE sooner rather than later. I would guess most ROH fans would view this as bad news, although Jimmy Jacobs being a loss is debatable. I never got his appeal, honestly. I don't think anybody expected Joe to stick around long term, but if this is to be believed, he'll be heading to WWE as early as the end of the month.

As I mentioned in the TNA thread, Spike has confirmed that they are having very preliminary conversations with ROH. Interesting. One of the things Viacom did for TNA was hire talents like Sting, who Panda Energy could not afford, yes? If ROH signed a deal with Spike, I wonder if Viacom would help them build the roster? Or would Viacom want to buy the whole deal from Sinclair? Would Sinclair be willing to have some sort of co-ownership deal with Viacom?

So it has been officially confirmed by Spike themselves that Ring Of Honor is in (very) preliminary talks with Spike TV. I find this interesting, but not because I care if ROH ends up on Spike. What I find interesting is that Spike are having talks with ANY pro wrestling company at ANY level. It shows that they are at least willing to consider the idea of being in the pro wrestling business again. TNA can no longer claim the reason they left Spike is only because Spike had NO interest in being in the wrestling business. The fact they are talking and admitted it proves that Spike are willing to at least talk to a pro wrestling compnay about doing business - as long as it's not TNA, who they were more than happy to get rid of, despite of the fact that TNA was bringing them high ratings (relatively speaking, for Spike TV.) Does this lend any credence to the theory that one of the main reasons Spike dumped TNA is because of their reluctance to get rid of Russo, and then lying about the fact they did?

He isn't related to Stan Hansen, according to Hansen. JR asked him on his podcast and Hansen denied it.

So The Washington Post picked up this story today, and have added to the pile, talking about how DeMott also covered up sexual harassment. This doesn't seem to be blowing over like I thought it might...at least yet.

Don't want to nitpick, but Denucci probably drew as much money in Australia as Foley did in his whole career. He was also a staple headliner in North East secondary markets in the late 60s and early 70s before settling into the Gatekeeper role most people know him for. I'd be interested to see, adjusted for inflation, who drew more money in their career, Denucci or Foley. I don't think it's a slamdunk for Foley, Dominic was huge in the Aussie WCW. That's not nitpicking. I did not know that. Interesting. I suppose I should have picked another wrestler who trained people that I thought didn't draw money. What about The Unpredictable Johnny Rodz? Over to my boy Kelly here, but as Java Farook he was at least a headliner in LA, and a fairly sizable star. People forget that New York was a major pay-day territory and that guys like Denucci and Rodz, who settled into midcard and JTTS roles as homesteaders, had actually "made it" to an extent. As in, they didn't have to travel the country anymore looking for work. Working the opener at MSG might have got them the same amount of money as headlining in some other places. Why do you think they stayed there 15+ years? It was a cushy gig. Tito Santana also told us that Rodz was a real leader in the locker room; he was an important part of Vince Sr's setup. I am going to have to break off into my own thread, where I name random wrestlers who I think have never drawn money and operated wrestling schools...then sit back and wait for the responses: "How about so-and-so?" "Nope, he sold out an arena in Wichita in 1973!" Larry Sharpe? Eddie Sharkey? My whole point was, I felt that guys who didn't "draw money" could still run a training school that gradulated guys who would.

Don't want to nitpick, but Denucci probably drew as much money in Australia as Foley did in his whole career. He was also a staple headliner in North East secondary markets in the late 60s and early 70s before settling into the Gatekeeper role most people know him for. I'd be interested to see, adjusted for inflation, who drew more money in their career, Denucci or Foley. I don't think it's a slamdunk for Foley, Dominic was huge in the Aussie WCW. That's not nitpicking. I did not know that. Interesting. I suppose I should have picked another wrestler who trained people that I thought didn't draw money. What about The Unpredictable Johnny Rodz?

His third book is especially bad in this regard. He comes across as such an obnoxious, drunken asshole. I don't blame Punk for distancing himself from Jericho. I know, right? I could not BELIEVE how bad Jericho comes off in that book. How could he not have read that before it went to press and said "Wow, I'm really obnoxious and unlikeable!" I used to like Jericho but he sounds like an awful person now. It reminds me of how I was a huge Foley fan from when I first saw him during his first run on WCW, up until Have a Nice Day. Then from Foley Is Good onward? Not so much.

Ever the good employee. He'll crop up somewhere else. We all know how they are with this kind of stuff. I'd bet hard money that they asked him to resign, and told him they'd call him when the storm blows over. They have done this many times with other guys, Fit Finlay being the most recent example I can think of, off the top of my head. They obviously just want this to go away for now, and then they will quietly slip him in somewhere a year from now.

I have to say I do not agree with the concept that in order to train somebody, you had to have "drawn money" yourself. Look at some of the guys who have drawn money. Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair spring to mind. Here are a couple of guys who have no concept whatsoever of the truth. None. I once saw Hulk Hogan claim with a straight face that Andre The Giant weighed almost 900 pounds when Hogan slammed him at WM3, and that Andre died "shortly after." Neither of these facts are anywhere even close to being true, but Hogan has no issue saying them. Ric Flair gave more than one interview where he claimed he was at the arena the night Bruiser Brody was murdered, even though he was not in Puerto Rico that night, and it can be proven. My point is, both of these guys are top names who drew a ton of money, but if you put them in front of a class of new trainees, you couldn't believe a damn thing that came out of their mouths. But hey...they drew money! Conversely, look at a guy like Dominic DeNucci. I am not much of a Foley fan anymore, but if you read the chapters in his book about his training with DeNucci, you certainly get the impression that he worked hard, learned the basic fundamentals, and came out of DeNucci's school better off for having trained with him. Should Foley not have listened to DeNucci because he never drew money (aside from when he was teamed with Bruno, I guess?) Baseball is a great comparison. In my opinion, Ty Cobb was the greatest hitter of all time. He was also pretty much a washout as a human being, and when he managed a team, they never won the division and most of his players hated his guts. Here is a guy many people consider the greatest of all time, but he was unable to transfer his knowledge to others. But if you look at a guy like Buck Showalter, he never even made it to the Major Leagues during his career, but he has a proven track record of being able to manage and really help younger talent. Last year, he won Manager of the Year and took a team that didn't even contend the year before to the ALDS. Should the players have said "I'm sorry, you never even played in the Major Leagues...I'm not listening to you. We should hire Barry Bonds!" EDIT: I was posting this at the same time Parties was posting his response, both of us basically presenting the same argument. He just managed to do it more succicntly and efficiently than I did.

That's an interesting question and a fair point. I used to write a column for 411, and I wrote one called "Remember The Renegade" about Rick Williams who played The Renegade in WCW. (At the time I was fairly proud of it, but when I read it now, it makes me cringe.) It was about how WCW made Rick Williams famous, then basically hung him out to dry, and he ended up committing suicide. Anyhow, I got an email from an independent wrestler who was actually friends with Rick Williams during his days as "Reo Lord of the Jungle." This guy loved my column and thanked me for writing about Rick Williams. We struck up an online friendship. During the course of our relationship, this person got signed by the WWE developmental system. At the request of the individual, I will not disclose their name. I can only say that they were in the WWE developmental system for a significant period of time, they did end up getting called up, but were used only sparingly on the "B shows" and after a while they ended up getting released. This person went back to the indies where he is still somewhat active today, although he maintains a day job so he is not as active as he once was. A lot of you may not have even heard of them, although some of you probably have. I still chat with them on an infrequent basis to this day. (Wish them Merry Christmas, etc.) When he got signed, I asked him why guys who already knew how to wrestle and in some cases had been doing it for years, had to be "trained." He said there were two reasons... First, since the demise of WCW, ECW and anything else remotely resembling competition, WWE does not want to bring in any Professional Wrestler who has any kind of fame or buzz from any other organization other than WWE. They don't want you thinking you deserve recognition based on anything you did yourself. THEY will make you a star, there is no way you could already be one. In fact, if you came into WWE developmental with any sort of "name" it would actually work against you. The first thing they would do is give you the "just because you can make 200 marks chant for you in a high school gym in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't mean you're ready for the big time" speech. WWE honestly thinks that in order for anybody to be successful and get over, they have to be remade by the WWE, which includes retraining, and being renamed. That serves two purposes - firstly they can take credit for your success with the "you were nobody until we made you" line, and secondly they end up owning your name so you can't use it elsewhere. This is why 99.9 percent of guys in WWE developmental end up being given a generic name, even if their present name is perfectly serviceable. Your birth name could really be Rick Strong, and they'd still rename you Mike McRough, because in their minds, Rick Strong was a nobody and Mike McRough belongs to THEM. I was shocked CM Punk was allowed to remain CM Punk. My friend told me that WWE pushed for him to drop the "CM" and just be "Punk" but Punk refused and Heyman backed him up, and Heyman was in charge of OVW at that time. Daniel Bryan is a perfect example. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with Bryan Danielson as a ring name, except WWE didn't give it to him. Apparently, Bryan is much more of a "go along to get along" type guy, so he agreed to change his name, and gladly did his drills and accepted his training, even though by the time he ended up in WWE developmental he had already been in countless classic matches...more than the people training him had ever had. Secondly, one of the things they drill into you is that "less is more." My friend told me that one of the guest trainers he worked out for was Pat Patterson, and that after meeting Pat Patterson his attitude changed dramatically. He pointed out that he (and many of his fellow wrestlers) had been executing high risk moves for little to no pay, a lot of the time when it wasn't even being filmed - but that in WWE developmental they teach you another way. Apparently Pat Patterson showed the trainees tape of crowds going apeshit for big name WWE stars executing moves that were in no way risky - the "people's elbow" is a great example - and his point was that you don't have to risk your health or the health of your opponent if you can train the crowds to accept low risk moves as something special. I guess they also use The Undertaker as an example of this philosophy...if you look at a lot of his work, especially in his early WWF years, he barely moved, he never sold, but he got over like gangbusters. I guess they LOVE to point out that before they got a hold of him, he was just Mean Mark, one half of The Skyscrapers, but after they transformed him he became one of the biggest stars of all time. My friend told me that in WWE developmental he also learned that IF you were going to bust out a "highspot" then it had better be special, it better be on TV or a PPV, and most importantly it had better be caught on camera. A lot of people call this "WWE style" which is basically getting rid of high risk or flashy offense and trying to make basic moves into big moves. I recently saw an interview with Fergal Devitt/Finn Balor. He said that when he came into WWE developmental he thought he pretty much knew it all, but he had no idea how to work facing a TV camera. I guess there is a "hard camera" on all WWE TV shows, and one of the things they train you for and drill into your head is every move you make including mugging for the camera has to be facing a certain way. Even a guy like KENTA is not immune to this attitude. Sure, he has been a pro for 15 years, and was a huge star in Japan...but that style is too high impact and he still doesn't know WWE style, proper WWE psychology, or how to work to the camera. I'm not saying I agree with the attitude, but that is apparently what they think. In a lot of cases, it is almost like a cult mentality, they want to break you down, "untrain" you and then retrain you in the "right" way. And if you do succeed, it's because of what they taught you and what they gave you.

What concerns me is the allegations that DeMott slapped somebody in the head who had a concussion, and allegedly kicked somebody's injured leg (which was in a cast) deliberately. If either of these allegations can be substantiated, that's ridiculous and he should be canned on the spot. Sounds like the allegations are really starting to pile up, including some from Dolph Ziggler's younger brother. We'll see if they get enough critical mass to force WWE to do something. Normally I'd say Vince and Co. would ignore this until the end, but now that they have stockholders they are much more wary of negative stories in the press, no? What kills me are the other wrestlers who were in no way involved, coming out of the woodwork to defend DeMott with one of two ridiculous comebacks: 1) "If it's true they should have said something at the time rather than complaining after they were released - now it just sounds like sour grapes!" or 2) "Back when I was trained, my trainer abused me all the time and you never heard me complain about it! These kids nowadays need to be tougher!" Because of course, nobody has ever kept silent in an abusive workplace out of fear of losing their job...and there is a big difference between taking a million bumps, getting stretched, etc. and being verbally humiliated by somebody who you can't answer back to, or even worse, being physically assaulted. As a grumpy old guy myself, I'll be the first one to complain that today's younger generation are a bunch of whiny, entitled, emo cry-babies, who should sack up, find some testosterone and stop thinking the solution to all of life's problems is a quiet talk and a big hug...but there is NO excuse for verbally degrading and humiliating people who can't defend themselves out of fear, and roughing up injured trainees. I laughed when I saw Chris Jericho tweeted support for DeMott, and then rapidly yanked the tweet when some of the alleged victims fired back at him. I recently read all three of Jericho's books, and his change in personality and demeanor over the course of the books is alarming. He's quite the asshole now, and his defending DeMott and then backing off is right in character.

How is his selling? That was my main bitch against him (and Moose too.) They both had a good look and solid offense but I thought both of them were weak when it came to selling. EDIT: I should clarify...I don't mean no-selling. I can almost deal with that. I mean both of them had a similar idea of selling offense from their opponent... - stumble one step backward - shake your head in confusion - if REALLY selling, then wave your arms around like a windmill.

ROH announced three super shows with New Japan Pro Wrestling in May of this year. The names of the NJPW talents appearing have not been released… RING OF HONOR WRESTLING® AND NEW JAPAN PRO-WRESTLING® TO PRESENT 3 SUPER SHOWS THIS MAY IN NORTH AMERICA BOTH PHILADELPHIA AND TORONTO TO HOST THESE EVENTS Ring of Honor Wrestling® (“ROH”) is happy to announce that we will once again partner with New Japan Pro-Wrestling® to present three must-see super shows for pro wrestling fans. Details available at this time include the dates & locations of the three events. ROH & NJPW stars will be announced at a later date. WAR OF THE WORLDS ’15 will be held Wednesday, May 13th, 2015 in Philadelphia at the 2300 Arena, formerly known worldwide as the ECW Arena. Tickets are on sale now for Ringside members now and go on sale to the general public Friday, February 27th @ 10am Est. GLOBAL WARS ’15 will be held on Friday, May 15th and Saturday, May 16th, 2015 at the Ted Reeve Arena, located in Toronto, Ontario. Tickets are on sale now for both events. The COO of ROH Joe Koff when asked about the events said: “We’re very excited to once again bring the stars of New Japan to our great fans. New Japan Pro-Wrestling is a fantastic partner with exceptional wrestlers and we always strive to give our fans an experience of a lifetime. With these three stacked events, showcasing the best wrestlers in the world, we will do just that.” I am torn on this one. I went to Global Wars in Toronto last year, and the experience I had was so bad, I swore off ever going to a live ROH show again, mostly due to the fact that the fans all around me were acting like a bunch of fucking morons. On the flip side, I really like NJPW and how often do you get a chance to see them live, in such an intimate venue? I think I'll wait to see how the card shapes up, but at this point, I think I'd wait to see if it is going to be on PPV or iPPV before going to the live show again, even though it is in my home town.

FROM 411: "The Wrestling Observer as an update regarding the recent rumors surrounding former WWE, WCW, and TNA booker Vince Russo attending the recent Lucha Underground TV tapings last weekend and his presence backstage. Previously, there were rumors of Russo meetings with Lucha Underground to possibly join the writing team. According to the report, Lucha Underground officials held a meeting regarding Russo, but it was said that he would not be hired. Some of the promotion veterans thought the opposite was true, and Russo was coming into as a booker to the company. Company officials then insisted that Russo was not getting a job. Russo said he was only there for an appearance and to produce some content for his podcast. Some backstage at the event said it looked like Russo was trying to get back into the business. During the tapings, Russo was treated very well, but there was a feeling backstage that he did not know anything about the lucha libre wrestling style. While he was backstage, he apparently made a suggestion that the show could use more female wrestlers. His comment was reportedly not taken very well. Vince Russo has denied these reports from Meltzer, and posted the following on his website… After I called Dave Meltzer out last week about his false story claiming that I was in talks with Lucha Underground to join their organization–and that’s why I was going out to LA–through an e-mail Meltzer sent me three scenarios that his “reliable source” told him would go down between me and Lucha. ALL THREE SCENERIOS TURNED OUT TO BE FALSE. So today, Meltzer printed this: Russo apparently made a suggestion that the show needs more female wrestlers and that suggestion wasn’t taken very well. Again—this is an absolute lie. Both on behalf of the Wrestling Observer and Dave Meltzer. I was at Lucha Underground to get content for this site. I suggested NOTHING to NOBODY. And, for the record, Lucha is a one hour show that currently has three women involved in major storylines, a new female who is currently being figured in, and of course, the stunning ring announcer Melissa Santos. I think it’s fair to say that there are women-a-plenty within the actual 44 minutes of the alloted television time.. How people pay, read and listen to this fictitious crap is absolutely beyond me. And, Dave—don’t e-mail me again. You’ve had enough chances. You have zero credibility when it comes to Vince Russo, and you have now proven that not once, but twice over a 6-day span. Period—end of story. Are you that intrigued, fascinated and jealous of me that you just can’t keep my name out of your mouth? Print THE TRUTH, or don’t print anything at all."

The Wrestling Observer (via Wrestlezone.com) reports that Vince Russo was in attendance backstage at the Lucha Underground tapings that were held in Los Angeles, California last night (Feb. 21). Per the report, Russo will attend the tapings tonight as well. Earlier this month, there were rumors of Lucha Underground looking to meet with Vince Russo to possibly join the creative team. Lucha Underground executive producer Eric Van Wangenen flat out denied the rumors on Twitter.

As I bitched and moaned about earlier in this thread, I was one of the people who ordered both of those 2014 Pay Per Views and after that last one, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever pay for another one...especially if they're raising the damn price. $35.00 was way too much for that last pile of crap as it was. I am not as sold on this show as other people seem to be anyhow. Hell, to me the card from that show in Atlanta was just as good if not better than this upcoming PPV. - I don't give a shit about ODB vs. Maria - I don't get why Sydal is fighting Alexander, not ACH. Alexander has always come across as really bland and boring to me. - Speaking of bland and boring...Whitmer vs. Strong? Boy, I bet the promos leading up to that one were scorching. - Does anybody think ACH has a hope in hell of beating AJ Styles? And why is Styles so low on the damn card? - Daniels and Kazarian, Bennett and Taven and Anderson and Gallows are all perfectly good Tag Teams...but why does ROH insist on booking these stupid NJPW rip-off Triple Threat Tag Matches? Having three (or four) teams in the match ruins the damn flow of the match, it ends up being like the opener at WK9, the whole "let's cram as much shit in as we can, and psychology be damned!" - The Tag Title match should be okay, even though I hate the Young Bucks. Hate hate hate. - Lethal vs. El Patron has a ton of potential, but I'm not buying the show based on one match. - The Main Event has Hanson in it. The guy who was in the opener of the last PPV is now in the Main Event of this one? Seriously? Bad enough that they couldn't come up with a decent opponent for Briscoe that they had to shoe-horn this stupid Ciampa/Elgin angle into the match...but Hanson? And I am willing to bet they put the title back on Elgin too. Bleh. - Why is Mark Briscoe not booked? I suppose I should be thankful Moose and RD Evans are not on this show. kjh was saying in the Samoa Joe thread that Sinclair is being tight with money right now, which is why we are unlikely to see Joe coming in vs. El Patron. Apparently the concept of having to spend money to make money is foreign to these people.

So I just found out that as of this coming Wednesday, the 25th of February - the WWE Network will finally be available to those of us in Canada who have Satellite TV through Bell Canada, on channel 1446. I`m not sure if there is any sort of promo offering a free month or something like that, but if there is I will obviously get it so I can get Wrestlemania for free. Otherwise, I am not sure I will bother with it.

Yes, you are supposed to stop watching. ... Since you're not watching anymore...can I have your tapes and DVD's?

I actually heard JR's interview with Schiavone when it happened. Schiavone admitted he stopped caring about doing a good job once they were well into the Bischoff era in WCW, that he once deliberately called a match where he didn't mention the action in the ring, he just pimped the WCW Million Dollar contest to try and prove to Eric that he could follow orders even when he didn't agree with them. He also admitted that he blindly followed company orders and stopped talking to Heenan when they told him to, even though he and Heenan were supposedly friends. (And then after apologizing to Heenan for it, he stopped talking to him again for no reason - but he feels bad about it.) He also essentially admitted that while he was a wrestling fan when he was younger, his real passion was calling baseball. He basically admitted that he was happiest working for the WWF and that when he went back to WCW he thought he made a mistake, and eventually he started phoning it in and got burnt out. He even admitted at the very end he was terrible, trying to be snarky and funny on the air and failed badly. There was nothing in that interview that made me like or respect Tony Schiavone more, it pretty much confirmed everything I thought about him to begin with. He was a company shill he didn't love the product and phoned it in a lot of the time. He admits it himself in that interview! It's a subjective issue; he can think / feel whatever he wants and that's that. He can?! Phew, thank gawd you're here to defend the right of freedom of thought. Show me where I said he can't think or feel something. People are entitled to whatever opinions they damn well want. I said if he thought Schiavone was better than JR, then I don't know what to tell him...meaning I don't know what to say to that. That was me, sorry dude. I agreed with everything you said about him in your rant. Also Heath McCoy's Stampede book is something people should read if they haven't already. Good stuff. Yeah, that kind of just exploded off my keyboard bud. I never liked Whalen from the jump, and after I read McCoy's book? Lookout. I couldn't believe that stunt Whalen pulled where he walked out of the arena while they were on the air, during the Bad News Allen/Archie Gouldie angle and basically ruined the entire thing. That was when he bitched to the athletic commission, costing them the ability to hold the blow-off match at the Stampede Corral. He basically ruined all the work everybody had done on that angle, and cost them money in the process. (And that was an excellent angle, WAY ahead of it's time.) My dislike for Whalen was upgraded to total disgust at that point. I know Bad News claimed in shoot interviews he couldn't stand Whalen and wanted to smack him. I kind of wish he had. I don't understand the logic of your argument. If Foley hadn't mentioned the "Butts in Seats" comment in his book, it would have been okay for Schiavone to have said it, because nobody would remember it? Firstly, even if Foley hadn't mentioned it, I think it would still be remembered. The whole point of Bischoff telling Schiavone to say that was to take a cheap shot at Foley, and to discourage people from changing the channel to RAW. It was a huge mistake on both counts, as people generally liked Foley at that time, and what kind of idiot tells people that the World Title is about to change hands on another channel, and doesn't guess that people are going to want to actually see it? I don't know if it really did have the huge effect on the ratings that some claim it did - I know the story is that as soon as Schiavone said it, thousands of people changed the channel, but I do think it's been confirmed that RAW beat Nitro during that segment. I don't see any revisionist history going on there, to be honest. Nor can I blame Foley for taking shots at Schaivone in his book after what Schiavone said about him. And I don't even like Foley anymore, but on that one, he's right. You guys have raised one point I did not consider, as it has been almost 20 years and I have not gone back and watched much of that footage again. You are right about the JR/Schiavone timelines. Namely, I had forgotten that until Survivor Series 97, Vince McMahon was still the play-by-play guy for the WWF. So my JR > Schiavone equation may be a time miscalculation. I tend to remember the two broadcast teams during the Monday Night Wars as being Schiavone and Heenan vs. JR and Lawler. However many of you are right...the timelines may not totally match. I agree that Tony Schiavone and Bobby Heenan were a more enjoyable team than McMahon/Ross/Lawler...basically for all of 96 and most of 97. (I have heard jdw say that back in the seventies, Vince McMahon was a good Play-by-Play guy, but from the moment I ever heard him in 83/84 up until 97, I found him to be pretty insufferable as well. Ventura helped offset him somewhat, but still.) However, when McMahon left the booth, and Ross took over as primary Play-by-Play guy, that is when the momentum started to shift. 1998 was WCW's most profitable year financially, but I think it was also when Schiavone went into full on shill-mode and his work started to go into the shitter. Having said that, it wasn't too long before Lawler started to noticably decline in quality too, as I recall. When the "T&A" aspect of the attitude era really started to come to the forefront, to me that is when Lawler started to really go downhill, stopped worrying about being a color guy, and resorted to acting like a creepy old pervert. (Which he is...but still.) Curse the day he (or whoever it was) came up with the "puppies" catch phrase. Good lord...Goldberg and Rogan are getting WORSE?! I shudder to think how that is possible. Hey, conventional wisdom loves to shit all over Gorilla, but I used to love him and Jesse. You could tell they liked each other and were having fun, and that will get you pretty far in my opinion. Gorilla had his own bag of well worn phrases that he beat into the ground, but I liked him, bless him.

I don't think Heenan was any great shakes in WCW, either. Heenan is another one who had a limited amount of tired jokes and would go to them time after time. The difference is, I always got the feeling that in the WWF he cared about what he was doing and he sounded engaged. I think he was at his best when he was in the WWF with Gorilla Monsoon, but honestly I have never really liked Heenan as anything other than a manager at ringside. (I think he excelled in that role, mind you.) I hated when the nWo angle started and even Heenan (who was a heel announcer of course) started defending WCW and bitching about the nWo. It sold the invasion aspect of the angle but it made commentary pretty much unbearable with Schiavone and Heenan whinging about how unfair the nWo was etc. etc. etc. As time went by, you could tell Schiavone and Heenan both didn't give a shit, and you could also tell they didn't like each other. I could never understand Schiavone phoning it in like that, especially since he was doing it when WCW was the #1 promotion at the time, and drawing record ratings. You know who is similar? Jerry Lawler. Here's a guy who is one of the most clever and witty heel play-by-play guys out there, hands down. His insults and put-downs of the babyfaces were hysterical, (yet critical and cutting) during the Manhattan Center years of RAW. Yet during the Attitude Era, he pretty much pulls a Schiavone, stops trying, and resorts to shrieking "Puppies Puppies Puppies." That's why Heyman was such a breath of fresh air when he came in and worked with Ross. Heyman could talk about something other than tits. There is absolutely positively no way whatsoever you can compare Ed Whalen and Jim Ross. In fact, they are pretty much polar opposites. The bottom line is, like him or not, Jim Ross loves Professional Wrestling, and calling Pro Wrestling matches was his passion and his life's work. Ed Whalen was a sports reporter, columnist and hockey broadcaster who called wrestling matches for money. Whalen had no respect for Pro Wrestling and it showed in his work...hell he pretty much said as much in interviews. There's being a shill and then there is being an assking jerk. Look at his famous "butts in seats" comment he made about Foley, at the apparent order of Bischoff. Foley called him on it - literally, and Schiavone apologized and said he ordered to do it, but I'm sorry. He could have said no, and not taken the shot at Foley, but he did it. He embraced his shill role with gusto. I don't respect him "preserving his job." We have no way of knowing this for sure, but do you think he would have been fired if he'd refused to take the shot at Foley? Maybe the Foley call wasn't worth it to Schiavone. Maybe he thought about it and figured it wasn't a hill worth dying on...why risk your job for refusing to insult a guy who doesn't even work there anymore? But that's the thing, it obviously DID bother him if he went to all the trouble to call Foley and apologize, and even worse it's a symptom of a larger issue. Tony Schiavone would say and do whatever he was told when he was the #1 play-by-play guy in WCW. Look back at some of the ridiculous and incredibly outlandish things he said over those years. He became a joke. In my opinion, the difference between Schiavone and Ross is this...with Schiavone it was always him pimping the company, and the show. WCW is great. THIS IS THE GREATEST NIGHT IN THE HISTORY OF OUR SPORT! Nitro is where the big boys play, blah blah blah. When Ross went overboard, which he frequently did...it was about the product or a particular wrestler (STONE COLD STONE COLD STONE COLD BAH GAWD) it wasn't just indiscriminent company shilling. If you listen to Tony Schiavone during the nWo era, and then Jim Ross during the Attitude Era and you honestly think Schiavone was better than Ross, then I don't know what to tell you.

That's what made it worse for me. He didn't have to suck, it's like he chose to be that bad. I bitched about Ed Whalen and Mike Goldberg. I don't think either of them had/have the basic skills to be any better. They sucked due to a total lack of skill and ability. That's why I specified Schiavone during WCW's drawing peak, not in general. I can remember Schiavone back when he was in the WWF. He wasn't all that bad. I understand he could actually be good when he was with JCP. So I don't know how he transformed into the nightmare he became later. Did he make the decision to be annoying and say stupid shit? Sure he and Heenan hated each other, but so did JR and Heyman...they still did a damn good job. If anything, the tension helped the commentary, it didn't hurt it. I didn't see this show, can you expand? I'm always interested to hear from people who had the same complaints I did about UFC commentary.

Commentary is really important, in my opinion, good commentary can make a bad match at least watchable, whereas bad commentary can make a good match unwatchable. Somebody mentioned Ed Whalen? Don't get me started on Ed Whalen. I was a Stampede Wrestling fan during the mid-late eighties. You had Owen Hart, (and assorted other Harts of varying skill levels) Brian Pillman, Bad News Allen, The British Bulldogs, and others. Ed Whalen made a lot of those matches hard to sit through. The man was horrible. He wasn't just horrible, he was actually detrimental to the product. First of all, when it came to actual commentary ability - he didn't have any. He didn't know the actual names of many of the moves, so he resorted to: "Oh, look at that!" Secondly, he had a well used bag of maddening clichés which he went to on an all too regular basis. A couple of prize examples would be: "This is a ring-a-ding-dong-dandy!" and "Malfunction at the junction!" So just listening to the man was painful. On top of that, he had no respect whatsoever for Pro Wrestling OR Pro Wrestlers. Calling Stampede was not his full time job - he called Hockey Games (which he also sucked at, for the record.) He used to actually give interviews where he would mock Stampede Wrestling and make fun of wrestling. That's the guy you want as the face of your company when people turn on the television. Even worse, he used to conduct the interviews in the ring, during which he would inject himself, no-sell the storylines, and basically do everything an interviewer is NOT supposed to do. If he was on camera, he generally made it about himself, not the guy he was interviewing. Apparently, a lot of the wrestlers hated him, and if that is true, I can see why. Last but not least, he actually sabotaged the product behind the scenes. Whenever there was bloodshed (and Calgary could be bloody at times) he would bitch to the Athletic Commission about it. He actually managed to get a show cancelled once, which was supposed to be a blow-off for a huge angle, because he bitched so much about the violence - they ended up having to do the show on an unregulated Indian Reservation that a lot of people couldn't get to. He was such a prick about it, it made the front page of the Calgary Newspaper. All of this, and Stu Hart had to basically deal with the guy because he was part of the television deal, if I am not mistaken. If you read the book "Pain and Passion: The History of Stampede Wrestling" by Heath McCoy, you'll get to see just how horrible this old jerk was. In short, whenever I hear somebody wax nostalgic about Ed Whalen and his stupid clichés, I have to fight the urge to slap them in the head with a phone book. I used to be a big fan of the UFC. One of the (many) things that turned me off them was the commentary by Mike Goldberg and Joe Rogan. You'd think that calling an infinite number of fights over 20 years would have taught Mike Goldberg something about even the most rudimentary basics of martial arts, wouldn't you? Well, you'd be wrong. One of the last shows I ever saw, my friend and I started counting the number of moves which Goldberg got the names wrong. At 10, we stopped. Goldberg is an empty suit, a brainless company shill with no discernible personality of his own. He basically exists to speak on the rare occasions Joe Rogan isn't, at which time he'll spout the next event coming up, or shout out the name of the sponsors. We used to have a drinking game where you'd take a shot every time Mike Goldberg YELLED out: "THE ICEMAN...CHUCK LIDDELL!!!" during a UFC show. I'd tell you how it worked out, but I suffered an alcohol induced blackout so I can't remember. This is a guy who landed an NFL gig and fucked it up so bad that he got fired after a week. He made so many mistakes during the game that fans mocked him for it on twitter, so he cussed them out. I consider Mike Goldberg the Tony Schiavone of MMA. His broadcast partner Joe Rogan is a problem all of his own. This guy has a McMahon sized ego, and with Goldberg as a broadcast partner, he basically has free reign to say whatever shit he wants, knowing that nobody with a brain will contradict him. But Rogan is really sneaky. He plays favorites in a huge way, and he will highlight everything his favorites do on commentary, no matter how insignificant the move is - all while either ignoring or downplaying what the opponent does. It is very subtle sometimes, at others it is very obvious. Guys like Michael Bisping, Joe Lauzon and especially Diego Sanchez have all benefited greatly from the verbal fluffing of Joe Rogan over the years. They are all talented fighters (to varying degrees) but Rogan will make them out to be much more skilled than they are. A lot of fans can't understand why Bisping and Sanchez have never won titles despite how "great" they are. Look back, and you can see how Rogan builds them up far beyond their skill levels, often based on things that don't even take place in the Octagon. He'll go on and on about what gym they train at, who they train with, and things they do in training...which is great except at the end of the day, there is a saying about fighters being a beast in the gym but a dud in the Octagon. One of the greatest things I ever saw was when Diego Sanchez got a LHW Title Shot at BJ Penn, and Penn singlehandedly dismantled Sanchez. He didn't just beat him, he outclassed him, and embarrassed him. It wasn't even close, and he didn't beat him quickly either - he slow tortured the guy. Rogan had no choice but to try and make Penn out to be some sort of MMA GOD. And Penn is damn great, but also Sanchez just isn't anywhere NEAR as good as Rogan makes him out to be. Ironically, Penn is another one who has Rogan riding his jockstrap on a regular basis - the only difference is that Penn probably deserved a lot of the accolades. What is worse is the guys who fight one of Rogan's favorites end up getting very subtly buried, or at the very least their own skills and abilities get downplayed in favor of one of Rogan's favorites. Once in rare while, a guy like Rampage Jackson or Frank Mir will publicly call Joe Rogan out on his bullshit, but for whatever reason, the UFC has decided that they want their "A" Commentary Team to consist of an idiot and a sycophant, so nothing ever changes. I don't get it - back when PRIDE FC were still in business they had an outstanding commentary team in Steven Quardros and Bas Rutten, but for whatever reason the UFC never picked them up when they became available. Ask a lot of hardcore MMA fans about PRIDE and many of them will tell you that the highlights of the English language broadcasts was often the entertaining commentary of Quadros and Rutten. Those guys LOVED the fights and it showed and both knew their shit too. Then again, Goldberg and Rogan are company men, through and through. Quadros and Rutten would openly say when a fight sucked or a fighter was dogging it. Mike Goldberg either can't tell, or would never dare to say he was calling a boring fight. Was anything worse than Tony Schiavone in WCW during their peak? The whole "greatest night in the history of our great sport" cliché basically ended up becoming a meme, but that guy was SO bad it almost defied description. As a play-by-play guy, you kind of have an unspoken obligation to be have SOME credibility, even in Pro Wrestling. Remember the infamous "Kennel From Hell" match with Al Snow and the Big Bossman? JR pretty much admitted on the air that match sucked. It may have got him some heat backstage, and I know the popular consensus around here is that JR is a vile human being or whatever, but as hyper as he could be with the STONE COLD STONE COLD STONE COLD, I never felt he was going to try and piss down your back and tell you it was raining. Schiavone? Forget it. That guy was the shill from hell. My favorite would be when he would criticize the WWF for doing a bait and switch on RAW, when Nitro had done the exact same thing the week prior. That guy had zero credibility, and deserves the horrible reputation he has as one of the worst announcers of all time. I might rant more on my favorites later. Or I might not.