WingedEagle

Very much appreciate the recommendations. Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions on a limited sample, but she feels like a top tier Rookie of the Year candidate. Super impssed with what she does and even more by what she doesn't do, instead sticking to her strengths and maximizing her mileage there. Any other recent joshi you'd go out of your way to recommend?

Learn to read, never once said it was racism. Just said completely dismissing it seems wrong. Others have asked, why would anybody care that wrestling coverage follows America and puro and ignores almost everything else? It seems pretty obvious that people would want wrestling coverage and fandom to not ignore a giant country like Mexico. A few have come back with lucha is just not for them, which is completely fine. However, I feel like that is too simple of an answer. Would lucha be as hard to get into if it was covered like puro and if the tapes flowed as freely. Would it be as hard if people talked about MS-1 vs Sangre Chicano like they do 6/3/94? Also, maybe Trauma vs Lupus is a bad example. Looking back Atlantis vs UG was 4th match of the year in the WON. That's not too bad at all, of course it's the only lucha match to place or get honourable mentions. Would that be the case with a different narrative and history? I'm not interested in whether Mexico is a giant or small country. I'm interested in whether the wrestling it produces is compelling and interesting according to my tastes. Why on earth would I want to dedicate time to something just because it originates in a big place? Just don't see the logic there at all. If there was a groundswell of discussion about MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana, or any big lucha matches -- whether Atlantis/V3, highly touted Santo/Casas/Dandy matches from the 90s, or Mistico / Anniversary show matches from the last 10 years, I believe there would be a hell of a lot more discussion about them. Then again, I don't think it compares to Misawa/Kawada or the best of All Japan from that era, or even New Japan from this era. That's my taste. Its a great match but not an all-timer for me. But you seem intent on tying this directly to WON MOTY voting. I can't explain the reasons there but can't think of a good one off the top of my head. Do you want people to understand and be open to lucha, or are you beating the drum that they adopt your views of lucha, and if not, content to resort to personal attacks for why their tastes are wrong? If people who are diehard lucha fans believe that Mexican promotions are putting forth the best wrestling in the world, here's what they should do. Skip right past the point where you condemn people who have other tastes and suggest that they're racist. Instead, talk about Mexican wrestling. Say why its great, what to look for, give it context and tell people where to watch it. If people still don't like it, perhaps consider its not racist and not a personal affront to the person making the recommendation, but a matter of taste. And then continue talking about Mexican wrestling that is great until you're tired of doing so. What's so difficult about that tact?

I'd like to see more thoughts from folks who have been around about how fandom, awareness and access to wrestling from various territories and countries developed. A few posts have touched on post-WW2 Japanese heels and the ease with which tapes from Japan became available in the US relative to tapes from other countries. Just take a look at how easily comps were from various countries from the 80s alone. Not exactly that long ago, but a day/night difference as far as availability. There's probably a whole lot more to explore there, as well as the frequency with which NWA World Champions toured Japan and how reports of activity may or may not have made their way back to the states. Grimmas may be determined to scream racism at any and everyone who doesn't love lucha (and not loving it -- or any wrestling style, as others have noted -- is perfectly great as no one should watch wrestling they don't care and not everything will click with every fan, and no, I'm not quoting the particular post where that ad hominem attack was launched at everyone or the half baked defense that followed because it was a quite shameful attack and arguably the most toxic statement anyone's made here, but I digress. How's that for a sentence long enough to stretch 2 segments and possibly merit its own commercial break? But there are very likely are some interesting historical points and possible discussion areas about how viewing habits and access developed. For all we know, as footage from Mexico, Europe or Indies across the US or other parts of the world becomes incredibly widespread we may see them explode (relatively speaking) from a fanbase / talking point perspective in the years ahead. Or not.

Love list action! Still slowly working my way through the 90s. Many greats to come.

The answer to the first question is very hopefully yes. As to the second, those issues may very well be relevant. But unless someone comes out and explicitly demonstrates or acknowledges their relevance in how they view a particular style, doing so would require some incredible levels of assumption and judgment about why people watch what they do and what it says about people, when there is in fact zero basis for doing so. Its a quick and easy way to turn heel, as Parties just demonstrated, yet that approach lacks any and all depth, relevance or insight. There are almost certainly more than enough points to discuss and compare about various styles -- their development, access, presentation and relation to the "local" style if discussing across different territories/countries, among a host of others, that would provide for an interesting look at these styles through history without resorting to throwing stones in the name of culture wars and biases. On the other hand, that sort of nuanced approach doesn't lend itself to any quick conclusions about why so & so audience doesn't care for the style and thus may not be entirely appealing to folks who demand a purely black or white answer to questions that call for gray. But, hey, welcome to the world today. Why should wrestling discussions be any different?

Was there any answer to the question in the OP that would've made you change this decision? What happened in the last two months? just curious. No idea. This thread was to try to understand why this was happening more than anything else. The last two months just had me thinking about this shit more often, more than any events happening. Also time is limited. Your first statement is incredibly immature, but you probably already know that. What if someone watched Canis Lupus vs. Trauma I and didn't think it was a MOTYC? Do you want people to give it a chance or to concur with your every assessment? If you're going to pick & choose your wrestling based on who else watches it you're only spiting yourself. Try to stick to what you actually enjoy regardless of who else comprises the audience. It's really immature to do what 90% of fans do? To turn that around, if I watch what highly praised puro match and didn't like it, does that mean I gave puro a chance? What I am talking about is not people giving something a chance and not liking it. There are people who will try to watch highly praised stuff, but they are the minority. The majority go, I don't get lucha and ignore the whole thing. I stick to what I enjoy, the difference is I used to feel obligated to watch all the highly praised stuff. That usually means lots of NJPW stuff. All that has changed is me feeling obligated to watch it. For a few years (13-15) I watched a TON of NJPW, because that is the praised stuff. There was some good stuff and some bad stuff. I never really dug it. I have limited watching time, why should I waste any of that on NJPW? What I want to do is really focus in on what I like and try to shine some light on it. Lucha is not inferior to puro, but it is obviously seen that way by the masses. The only small thing I can do is focus my viewing habits onto what I think is good, not what the masses feel is good. How is that immature? Its immature if its in fact as it sounds that you're quitting on Japanese wrestling because fans of Japanese wrestling don't watch enough lucha to satisfy you. If you don't like Japanese wrestling, or WWE, or ROH, or PWG, or lucha, or RPW, and don't watch it because you don't like it, that makes all the sense in the world. But it read as though you were throwing in the towel on Japan because people who champion it aren't giving lucha enough of a chance in your book. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

Thanks, much appreciated. Will try to get to those over the long weekend.

Agree with this and would tack on at least Ben-K who I truly feel can break some of the Dragon Gate apprehension based on his look and working style as well as Chihiro Hashimoto who has wrestled a total of 52 matches so far according to cagematch and seems really poised for that many matches under her belt. Totally with you on Ben-K. Seems like a lot of potential to stand out from the Dragon Gate stereotype. I definitely need to see more Hashimoto. Only seen 2 matches thus far including the Satomura title match, but she looks very promising. Doesn't overreach and sticks to simple things that look good at her level and capitalize on her power. Which other matches of hers would you recommend?

Your first statement is incredibly immature, but you probably already know that. What if someone watched Canis Lupus vs. Trauma I and didn't think it was a MOTYC? Do you want people to give it a chance or to concur with your every assessment? If you're going to pick & choose your wrestling based on who else watches it you're only spiting yourself. Try to stick to what you actually enjoy regardless of who else comprises the audience.

Couldn't agree more. This year may not have seen any major acts catch fire or terrifically engaging booking, but in retrospect it looks like an incredible year for match quality, both as far as elite, all-time matches and depth. Not looking forward to cutting anything from my MOTY list.

When's the last time you were in an actual real life fight or a combat competition. Almost all real life fights or combat competitions are horribly boring. Not something to emulate for entertainment purposes. I disagree, and judging by the fact UFC is worth more than the WWE and their public perceptions most people seem to as well. That's got zero to do with the quality of the fights. They've done a better job creating stars in recent years than WWE, although even if WWE did a great job of it they'd never see the same TV money. As long as people continue to pay and enjoy shows they pay insanely high ticket prices and PPV money for your statement that "almost all real life fights or combat competitions are horribly boring" simply isn't relevant. So go hang at Sherdog. Most real fights are boring. Not all, but most. UFC has drawn in recent times because of Connor and Rousey. Their fights were interesting because of their personalities and the fact that the company did a great job selling them as characters. But if their fights were preshow matches rather than main events no one would talk about them. Fight quality is not what people have been buying, nor what the company has been selling.

When's the last time you were in an actual real life fight or a combat competition. Almost all real life fights or combat competitions are horribly boring. Not something to emulate for entertainment purposes. I disagree, and judging by the fact UFC is worth more than the WWE and their public perceptions most people seem to as well. That's got zero to do with the quality of the fights. They've done a better job creating stars in recent years than WWE, although even if WWE did a great job of it they'd never see the same TV money.

When's the last time you were in an actual real life fight or a combat competition. Almost all real life fights or combat competitions are horribly boring. Not something to emulate for entertainment purposes.

But is it really deserving if it kills the territory?

Cosigning most of this. When it hits, like most pro wrestling, lucha is great. But very often it looks as though everyone is literally going through the motions to put on a performance display that substantially, if not completely, seems devoid of intensity, competitiveness and an effort to inflict physical damage to an opponent. There are obviously exceptions as to presentation and style, but too often it simply seems much more collaborative than I want from wrestling.

Though the Jax/Sasha segment was simple, textbook babyface and heel. You had a defeated baybface selling the loss and injury from the night before getting laid out. No need to do a crazy angle tonight with the first match hopefully weeks away. Really effective segment.

That post occurred to me last night as well. Hopefully it does come through and leads to a solid pair of Mania matches.

Not about to argue that this match approaches any of their prior matches to this point, but the Pittsburgh crowd just could not care less.

Best Neville has looked and come across since joining the company? By miles? RE: the point above, the crowd wanted to babyface him because the division has been a disaster thus far, but I'd call it a success if someone in the mix is over with the crowd with anything other than go away heat. Have to build from somewhere. Neville, Swann, Tozawa. There's stuff to work with there. Kendrick & TJP are much too bland to be featured, but I suppose they booked themselves into that corner with the contract situations coming out of the CWC.

No idea how long it's actually been, but this match feels interminable. And it needed to end about 10 minutes ago.

I actually thought they did a decent job laying out the story on paper, but it came off very forced with Foley resorting to his intense, end of days style promo without much provocation. But this match didn't do anyone any favors.

Apparently Foley finished decorating the tree and straightening the Divas's stockings a little early.

Props for a very original finish to the tag match.

Perhaps I'm crazy but feel like Charlotte has to win tonight. She's unbeaten on PPV and would like to think that kind of streak isn't broken without being part of the build to the show, but logic and whatnot aren't always a part of the equation.

Very low expectations here other than Sasha/Charlotte, which hopefully means a pleasant surprise. Interested to see what closes the show. Most matches have a lot of potential with the right layout and booking. We'll see how many hit, but I especially expect the two main men's singles matches to set up the title picture at the Rumble rather than anything conclusive.