Cap

Ohhh Orton should for sure just go full troll for his on screen persona. I have maintained elsewhere on this board that one of the new-ish lines of demarcation that fans really invest in and that the WWE should exploit in more varied ways is this notion of tastes in and types of wrestling. It shouldn't be the ONLY or even the primary thing to build characters and feuds around, but modern wrestling fans - especially on the internet, where the WWE builds so much of its branding - really invest in different ideals about what wrestling should look like. Orton is a sentient WWE logo (much like Cena, but in a different way) and he should use that to his advantage, troll the shit out of the fans, contenders down the card, JINDER... etc etc. I know some people don't like when stories lean too much on "breaking kayfabe" but I don't even think they would have to constantly go to the same wells to tap into this. It is better than what is doing now... which is just walking around being Randy Orton. Anyway, pretty clear that Rip and Randy are trolling and working the smarks (intentional or not). Maybe they were just being bitter or frustrated or who knows. Honestly, I don't care. I am with Ricochet. I love lots of different kinds of wrestling and most of this seems like a waste of time, but of course it catches fire because... the internet. At least it looks like some people might make some money off it. There are some pretty clever shirts being made, so I hope it puts money in some "indie" wrestler pockets. .

That is a fair point. Anything that did or could have made him interesting has more or less been taken from him. In my opinion though at his best he flashed potential to be really good and really interesting, but rarely sustained that for any length of time. It is also telling that he hasn't evolved really at all. If he is really as good as he is billed to be he needed to evolve into something else when the WWE de-fanged him. Even the stuff with Wyatt - to me - felt like recycled, half assed "I'm crazy" Randy Orton stuff on his end. If anything the fact that he flashed brilliance in the past makes it all worse. He is boring almost in spite of himself, like he is working to stay as uninteresting as possible. I just can't bring myself to care about him. Even when he was feuding with Dragon (who is my favorite wrestler and was the hottest thing since Austin at the time) it kind of felt like work to care about Randy Orton in that feud. And that is the problem. He has been put in great spots. He has been shown he is talented and can be interesting. But on the whole he remains largely forgettable to a large section of fans.

The cookie monster? I honestly wont be surprised if they at least pitch the idea at some point.

This match was a lot of fun and pretty well executed. Omega looks fantastic in this match and I think it really pulls out not just the toughness of Ishii, but a different kind of charisma than we usually see. It does sort of run into the same issues I had with Omega/Okada; it just seems to go a little long and there are too many false finishes for my taste. It probably could have been elite if they had wrapped things up just a touch earlier, but I still think it was very very good. I give it what I gave that ****1/4

I was hopeful when they signed him, hopeful that they had come to their senses and decided it was time to use Chris Hero as a monster on the NXT roster. However, now Ireally fear the worst with Hero, that they really want him more as a trainer and want to keep him off the indies (I know I know... paranoia). I hope I am wrong and I hope he gets a serious push and a few featured singles feuds, but Eduardo is right in pointing out that they seem to just kind of have him. I am really not sure what to make of his lack of direction, but i am hoping it pans out soon.

Joe/Regal - Probably could been pretty great anytime after Joe really got his legs under him, esp after like 2003 until Regal retired in 2013, but 2008ish seems pretty ripe for this one.

I'd go Dusty/Dustin right now. Others considered Johnny/Greg Valentine (just haven't seen enough of the old footage personally) Ric/Charlotte Flair (needs time to sort it out) Gory/Eddie Guerrero (Haven't seen a ton of Gory, but Eddie is a personal favorite) Blackjack Bulligan/Barry Windham

I am closer to the "this is all time great" side of things on this match. The details have been outlined clearly enough. The match builds well to me and I have no issues with the execution. I think the end where Samurai comes back one more time and adds that last tinge of doubt is great. The hate is palpable throughout but in that final few stretches it turns into desperation. The mask rips, the drama, the stiff shots, the dives, that pinfall at the end... this is great wrestling. ****3/4 (I could see bumping it at some point).

I'd say taping date. I think that jives best with most other archive, review, track systems that I know and use. This was fun. It got the job done. I agree that Reeves still lacks that presence, but this was the firs time that I took real note of him to be honest. It gave me the impression that he could get there if put in the right spot and can hone the right persona, he might really excel.

I watched the handheld right after the show and thought it was a fun little match. The company recording adds a good bit to it. Things actually look a little tighter (which isn't always the case once you get closer). Its a fun little grappling showcase. I thought Sabre's offense meshed with grappling Navarro was doing. The counters and escapes between the two were a little disconnected at times, but oh well. I give it an extra notch for being sort of a "who the fuck thought this would happen" match. ***3/4

I'm a sucker for brutality. I just can't help it. These two went all in on putting together something memorable to cap the tournament off and - to me - mission accomplished. Ilja's chest was something to behold. That is one tough dude. I have seen people giving it top marks and it doesn't quite get there for me, but I still rate it very highly and think it is something special in the context of the tournament. ****1/2

I finally got around to this tournament. A buddy of mine primed me with the fact that he was in the minority, but he preferred this to the final. I was skeptical, but I'll be damned if I don't kind of agree. I just rewatched them back to back and it is close. They are both different kinds of awesome, but this match has a crispness to it the other doesn't and even though I know who won I got sort of taken up in the drama. I do agree with Jetlag that I would have preferred Starr selling some of the big moves a bit more, letting everything breath. That keeps this from elite levels for me, but I still give it really high marks because it is filled with high octane offense, Starr was convincing in his if-I-rest-I-die attack strategy, Walter is such a top shelf guy right now, and I really loved the ending sequence. ****1/2

The behavior doesn't always have to change to turn someone heel. Honestly, that has been the power of Asuka; it doesn't really matter if she is "heel" or "face" because her look and skill is over. People just cheered her because she was a bad ass and it is really easy to use a character like that to help the rest of the division, which is what they are doing. By transforming the division around Asuka and highlighting more of her ass hole side over time, they have slow built the audience to get behind the challengers rather than the dominant champ, accenting the rise of the competition. Asuka turns heel as a byproduct, but there is no key point where she is now officially heel. She is just Asuka and they have slowly weened the audience off of her as the protagonist of the division and turned her into the ultimate antagonist with a variety of people they could ultimately recenter the story around. Its all the same thing to me; however you word it, the whole thing has been awesome. Though I am not all that excited bout another multi-woman match for the title. I am more excited about this lineup and would really like it if they hadn't done it fairly recently. I am imagining it leads to something for summer slam weekend between her and Moon that may be the blowoff. Even though I am not crazy about family man Roderick Strong, those video packages have been well done and I am really excited to see that they clearly have plans for him to work around the top of NXT soonish. Honesty, asshole Roddy (circa pwg title run) is the best, but that guy is so talented I am just happy to see they are behind him.

I agree. I get the criticism of Rollins, but I thought Joe worked pretty hard to keep the match together. It was a solid, unoffensive match.

I have always liked the idea of Reigns as the central force on a brand who they feud with the bevy of "indy darling" guys who are - for the most part - smaller than him, but present unique matchups. Reigns is really good and he can clearly put on classics, especially with the right opponents. I am generally uninterested in him being "heel" or "face". I think they have kind of committed him to being something in between that is more face when the chips are down, but perfectly hatable and that is ok. But working him on top with a rotation of guys that he can really excel with could help run the gamut of emotions. Fans are going to be fickle with him because they like being fickle with him, but I see really letting him focus on putting on big matches with popular guys that people associate with "work-rate" (whatever that means to them) as a way of getting the fans who hate those guys behind reigns, developing good stories and matches on the backs of those who reject him and/or remain obsessed with the "indy-guys" and if it is done right it could cultivate an appreciation for an all time run and everything he put into a big title reign. That could give them options once the dust settles to turn him legit face if they wanted or run down the path they are on. I just think they need to commit to him doing what he is doing, but highlight it more with the belt, especially if he is the guy to go over Brock clean (with out catching him off guard).

Yeah, but I don't see the utility of picking on such a strawperson characterization of the notion that "merch sale" is a overdetermined metric that wrestling fans can and probably should be somewhat suspicious of, especially when it is passed off as a simple equation for popularity. I am not speaking for Sek of course, but I don't buy the absolute notion that more merch equals more sales and I guess I didn't get that out of anything in the thread (just different readings perhaps), but if we are going to use the metric of merch we should recognize that it is metric that can and is impacted by all kinds of things other than being over. This is particularly true since it gets tossed around with such frequency in the wrestling world.

It's totally normal for people to go to the merch stand wanting to buy New Day or AJ or Ambrose gear only to see Roman gear and shrug and pay $25 for a Roman shirt they didn't want. Talent who have more merch for sale than Roman Reigns: Seth Rollins, New Day, Enzo/Cass, John Cena, Sasha Banks, Dean Ambrose. AJ Styles Talent who don't sell as much merch as Roman Reigns: Seth Rollins, New Day, Enzo/Cass, Sasha Banks, Dean Ambrose, AJ Styles Yeah, but that is anecdotal. Sure it is meaningful and a point well made about how popular Reigns is despite a very vocal group of detractors, but it doesn't mean that they can't or don't manipulate that data (consciously or unconsciously). All kinds of things likely affect merch sales: advertising, design, tv time, amount of items, diversity of items, turnout of new items, etc etc etc.

Yeah, and of course part of that is the more you sell the more they will make, but a big part is their ability to manipulate those metrics and then point to it as objective. proof.

Wow... some monster ratings getting thrown around here. Makes me want to rewatch it soon. I thought it was great. Roman's best individual performance so far. Braun held up his end of the bargin as well. Great monster work, a true fight. I had it at ****1/4.

I know it is obviously of a different ilk, but Trevor Lee's current Mid-Atlantic HW Championship run is pretty frickin' great.

Yeah, it isn't a yes or no answer, but it is increasingly important as the way wrestling is mediated changes and the WWE's long-term goal of making the brand bigger than any one wrestler comes to fruition. The currency of merch has increased in a variety of areas as streaming becomes the primary way people consume media. It is probably given too much weight, especially when it is used as discussion enders or to dismiss other ways someone may support the claim that this or that wrestler is popular and people want to see them. At most, it seems like a way companies (mostly the WWE?) measures popularity. At least, it gives everyone a vague sense of comfort that we can still quantify popularity in a streaming wrestling world where live audiences can be really fickle.

Bray is still a ball of potential to me. If they keep doing NOTHING with him or never quite finishing what they start and he keeps under-performing in big singles matches, yeah, he is on the path to Kanedom, but I still hold out hope. He still has promo chops. He is still unique. His charicter can believably go after just about anyone. Sure he needs some direction. They need to add something to his character, give him a goal, a new wrinkle... SOMETHING, but the Bray Wyatt Gimmick (Performed by Rotunda) has always been and still is a valuable gift that the WWE just doesn't seem to understand or know how to use.

I wont be a bit surprised if they pair them back up eventually. They have no clue what to do with Bray but they really want to do something with him all the same. They start a number of things they don't see through with him and when he is stuck at the same time they don't know what else to do with Braun they will team them up for 3 more months before having them feud.

Braun vs Reigns - YES That match over-delivered as far as I am concerned and it really was one of Reigns' best performances. Both guys stepped up and delivered in the main event.

Black Terry does it again. This guy is a national treasure; just put him on legal tender already. It is only out in fancam form right now. This Rush does his duck and run thing for a while and once he lures Terry to the outside he starts beating on the old man and never really looks back. He takes Terry all over the arena, parts of which you can't see from the fan cam. They go off to the lower left at one point and I see popcorn and fists flying. I can't see what is going on, but it looks fun. Terry stumbles back to the ring a bloody mess and Rush follows him to continue the beatings. Once back in the ring Terry is able to mount a pretty vicious looking comeback once Rush gets a little too cocky. Rush runs to the corner and stops dead and just cracks Terry in the head. Once he goes for a second one he eats what looks like a pretty vicious running headbutt. This is when the brawl really turns up and we get the good back and forth action. They are laying in the shots; you can hear em on the fan cam. At one point, while they were brawling outside Rush calls Terry back in the ring for a man-contest. Once back in the ring they throw some stiff shots, ending with some nasty looking headbutts. There were a few spots that looked sort of clunky, but they were mostly punctuated with some awesome brawling action. It is tough to say if that clunkiness come across on a commercial release. I imagine this will look even better once non-fancam recordings are out. Rush winds up getting DQed for hitting a tombstone that looked like it killed Terry from the fan angle. It is tough to say with the fancam, but I thought this was a pretty awesome fight with lots of intensity and violence. I look forward to a better quality recording coming out so I can get a better look at this match. ****1/4