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Everything posted by Cap
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Some Spoilers Below Just finished round one and I really liked it. Sure it had its ups and downs, but overall I thought the women looked good. Everything was put together and most of organized in a way to highlight strengths. I thought Sane, Baszler, Jazzy, Abbey, Martinez, and Kai really stood out. Storm, Piper, and Savoy were also sort of stand outs, but more in that I know/believe they have a little more to show and think they have good matches in front of them. There are lots of interesting matchups that could come up down the road and I am pretty pumped for later rounds where - ideally at least - the cream has risen to the top. I particularly liked Jazzy vs Abbey, Yim vs Logan, and especially Sane vs Blanchard. Sane/Blanchard was pretty easily my favorite match of the first round. I thought it was excellent and with the exception of Jazzy (maybe) Blanchard wound up being the strongest looking loser of the first round. Sane's top rope elbow was awesome, but her top rope forearm was (hell her not-top rope forearms were) brutal looking. Just really good stuff. Not surprisingly, I am not a huge fan of this commentary team. I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt and I don't think they really take away from matches, but it isn't ideal. Is it just me or does JR sound more like a video game version of himself every time you year him? His one liners feel more contrived and cut-and-paste each time.
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Apparently Jinder admitted to liking Nickleback and he secured himself as one of my favorite heels right now. I don't care if he is trolling or not...
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Yeah... this has been textbook pro wrestling. As an actual sporting event, it is a joke. I am not buying it nor am I am going to a bar to watch it. It is going to be a glorified sparring match. Neither guy is going all in. Maybe Mayweather finishes him late. Regardless, it is going to be boring and go longer than it should. They will praise each other after the fight and this will lead to promotional stuff between the two and probably the UFC down the road.
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Come on, people in the US used to watch the Tour de France during the Armstrong days, weren't they ? I didn't.... but to be fair that had less to do with roids and more to do with me not caring about it at all.
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Unless this proves to be an absolute false positive, Jones is done. What a joke. I got no time for him anymore. He is an incredible athlete and I am pretty forgiving with athletes, but this is ridiculous. How could anyone trust him to get through a fight at this point without getting flagged and how could anyone trust that a clean test represents a clean fighter after all this? I don't care if its roids or coke, either one will will throw the result of a fight into question. What is the point of watching an athletic contest if you are more or less convinced the result is either going to be officially or unofficially tainted? He is done being relevant until his 30 for 30 eventually gets made. I honestly hope the WWE doesn't decide to bring him in and give him a big spot at Mania or something.
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I am still sort of hoping for Joe vs Brock and Nak vs Styles at Mania. The latter seems possible still, but the former doesn't seem as likely after the SS hump.
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Man... Asuka vacating the title after all this would feel like such a let down. I guess they could have her come back and try to win it back and put someone over, but I just don't see that value in having her not put someone over on her way up to Raw/SD. I guess that streak could translate to the main roster and if they are committed to building on it on RAW or SD and then really have her put someone over on a ppv in a big way, sure, but I have ZERO faith that she would be handled that way on the main roster.
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It's not even so much that he retained the title. The match was boring, bland and uninspiring, and Mahal didn't even really have to cheat to beat Nakamura, unless you count the minor distraction by the Singh Brothers. He just hit Nakamura with that rather unimpressive looking move (which I assume is his finish) and pinned him. Nakamura did not come out of that match looking great. You can put some of that on Nakamura and the whole "Nakamura is lazy and coasting now" theory, but I think if they wanted to keep Nak as a legit Main Event level guy, they should have made it look a lot harder for Mahal to beat him. I just don't understand the logic of giving Nakamura a major rub like he got when Cena put him over clean a couple of weeks ago, only to turn around and have him lose in such an unimpressive looking fashion when he gets his title shot. Unless you buy the theory that Vince was really mad at him about the supposedly botched suplex spot in the match against Cena. I guess I am just desensitized to this sort of nonsense from the WWE. I don't dissagree with any of this, but I also don't think Mahal has been bad at his job since getting the belt. He was a jobber, thrown into the main event (with Randy Fucking Orton for christ sake), given the belt and the challenge of looking legitimate, and then stuck in uninspired trap booking with a fan favorite/internet darling. Who would look good in this situation? Ohh and put that on top of the fact that its summer slam so the whole thing gets directly juxtaposed to some of the hottest wrestling the WWE has put on in years and pretty easily (at least imo) the best match of the year for the company in the Raw main event scene. Again, I am not saying the match was good, but it was generally unoffensive to me until the end (which you are right, should have been different). I just blame the the impossible position he was put in and the obstacles they put around him. That said, he did jack up the finisher and I won't be a Jinder apologist for that.
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What would have been the point of this Jinder thing if they took the belt off him before the India trip? That was - I thought - pretty clearly the point. He will drop it shortly after I assume. I still don't think he has been as bad as people say, but that is just me. He is a fine old-school heel champ who I think has overachieved in the roll. Not saying that was a great match or anything, but it is far from the biggest thing to be concerned about.
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Wonderful match. Big bombs, huge moments, great use of pace and time... this match had everything you want out of a 4-way. It was also shot really well to highlight the surprise nature of some of the offense. My only real problem is that Joe seemed like sort of an afterthought in terms of how things seemed to be laid out. Beyond being a Joe fan, i think that is just unfortunate. They had a lot of momentum with Joe (the crowd was excited to see him hurt people) and didn't give him as many places to shine. I think some more Joe could have pushed this to elite territory. still... pretty easy ****1/2 for me and I could bump it a 1/4 on second watch (which it is definitely getting soon). This is probably my favorite E match of the year so far.
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- Brock Lesnar
- Roman Reigns
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[2017-08-19-WWE-NXT Takeover: Brooklyn III] Asuka vs Ember Moon
Cap replied to ShittyLittleBoots's topic in August 2017
This was pretty easily my favorite match of Takeover and probably my second favorite match of the weekend. It was smart wrestling with a red hot home stretch. However, I actually think the early stuff they were doing, putting money in the bank for later, was quite good too. This is pretty easily my favorite women's match since Sasha and Bailey left. They worked with more urgency and crispness. ****1/2 -
I liked this a lot. I thought they had good chemistry and I think Itami is doing some fanstic work right now (slowing everything down, building his character within the match, becoming really hatable to shine on the people beating him). Everything was crisp for the most part. The kicks where hard. They finished with a mark out shot. Black got a little bloody. Overall this was an excellent match that kept pace in the middle of the show. **** for me
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- aleister black
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I think they may mess with companies - which is another reason I think it is quite possible he starts his own - but I don't think the WWE nor Bryan's health will stop people from booking him. The wwe will try to tie some companies up in the legal process just by having more resources, but if he shaves and goes by Bryan Danielson their ground is fairly limited on what they can do to stop people. I do suspect that they might cut Evolve and Progress off for him though through their relationship with those companies, which would be a real shame. To be clear, I am not saying I WANT this to happen. Ok, in a way I am selfishly wanting it to happen, but if i had any actual say in this I would 100% defer to his health and happiness. If he never wrestles again I won't complain a bit. I will be perfectly happy. When I think about what I want as a fan it is sort of in a vaccuum, without really thinking of results. That isn't because I don't care about his health (if there is a celebrity that I don't know at personally, but genuinely care about as a person, it is him), it is that I don't have nearly enough information and I don't think it is honestly any of my business what a grown man does with his body and his career. So, when I say "as a fan I would love this" it comes with the understood caveat of "if wrestling is what he wants to do and chooses to do with the information he has". Ultimately the "wrestling harming themselves" vs "enjoyment of the product" conversation is I think far bigger and more complex than this case; this is just the easiest case to filter it through. I am just saying I believe he will wrestle again and I believe he will do outside the WWE if not inside and I don't believe that health concerns will stop wrestling promoters from booking him and watching money roll in. What I think will happen, what I as a fan would love to see, and what I think SHOULD happen given his health are three totally different conversations (three conversations that are getting interwoven here quite a bit).
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Solid plan. I would normally bribe my wife to sit with me through this with takeout and beer/wine, but we are both getting over a nasty virus and I am in the middle of antibiotic cycle... so we may have to tune out early. This is one of the shows I like to sit through, if for no other reason is the big summer touchstone that they will try to pay some stuff off and set the tone for stuff to come. 9PM will be the big checkpoint for us. If they aren't keeping our attention we will move over to game of thrones and probably not return tonight.
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It feels like a matter of "when and how" rather than "if" Danielson comes back. I don't have strong or insightful feelings on what he does with his career. From a completely selfish standpoint, I am excited to see him wrestle again and just hope he does what is best for him. That said, I really think he has a singular opportunity within the history of wrestling. I am not sure anyone in the world could generate more interest on indy shows. He could tour the country wrestling mops for 6 months and people would show up. American and European indys would pay top dollar for him and it would pay off for him. He would generate more interest in different promotions than they could probably get with the next three big draw wrestlers put together (I don't feel like I am exaggerating). NJPW would probably fall all over themselves for him (or should), though that wouldn't be my personal favorite choice. I see companies absolutely taking the risk on him, putting him with the safest guys they have and probably not encouraging him to run his head into stuff. Hell, he and ZSJ could have 20 matches that would draw before they ever had to throw a punch. Dragon would wind up ultimately being Dragon though, but I don't see that really stopping anyone from signing him. What is far more interesting to me though, it seems he has some capital and an undying passion for the business. If anyone has ever had the means, motivation, stature, and talent to create something truly unique and compelling within the wrestling landscape, it is him. I don't think he would create something that would compete with the WWE, but I won't be surprised if he starts or goes in on a promotion that provides an alternative to much of the indy scene (and no, I don't have any strong grasp on what that would look like).
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For sure, this has been a long and complex process and that story really does encapsulate much of that process, perhaps one of its its most important and formative phases.
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I have generally thought responses to Dave's ratings are overblown, a symptom of a reactionary wrestling culture as much as a response to a real and present issue. However, and this isn't as much a changing opinion as much as me believing the that landscape has transformed into something else, I do think there is something to the notion that this Meltzerian standard has started to animate certain pockets of wrestling. Certainly NJPW rides that wave with some success. Without the official media infrastructure in the U.S. of say something like the WWE they are - through their alignment with this standard - carving out a place for themselves in the American wrestling conciousness... one they couldn't otherwise carve out. However, I am not sure it is so much a direct (though implicit) response to Meltzer himself as much as it is a response to a swealing of influence of particular types of orientations to wrestling, Meltzer and his stars being the most obvious and discernible manifestation. I almost feel like - from my limited perspective - that at least certain strands of wrestling cater to a particular style,that of the sort of in-a-vacuum, best-experienced-live" wrestling, a style that is often rewarded by Meltzer. I would agree that Meltzer is someone who is oversimplified, caricatured in a way with regard to his responses, but it is percisely the point that his more recent responses seem to have sort of embraced that caricature, one that prefers big action, offense, moves, and wrestling that animates the live crowd and creates an electric atmosphere. However, I am not sure I feel like there is a direct relationship with Meltzer as a singular or even primary catalyst for this as much as it sort of seems like large swaths of wrestling are driven by immediate reaction, hot-take, buzz-generating responses. If wrestling twitter is anything, it is a sea of just that. Let me give an example. I have been watching a lot of Progress lately and I really really like Progress, but Progess is a live-oriented product. They are really good at coherence and booking (imo), but the matches themselves are built around creating an electric atmosphere in the moment, about a sort of cyclical energy between crowd and wrestlers. I was at the NY show; it was absolutely ape-shit insane to feel part of that live (in a good way - for me at least, not to get into that whole mess). I think of Progress as sort of like NJPW in that the matches are more satisfying and impressive in a vacuum. When I just pop on a NJPW match it sometimes can feel like the biggest thing on earth. When I just pop on a progress match it feels like I might be watching the best indy ever sometimes. But if I watch a bunch of NJPW or a bunch of Progress in a row, in context, I start to tire of certain tropes returning in every single match. The matches themselves don't feel as special, even if I still enjoy the wrestling on the whole. Now, that might just be "bad wrestling" to some people and fair. However, that sets a crowd on fire and that is fodder for the hot take culture that internet wrestling has become. Meltzer was, in some ways at least, a hot-take guy before twitter, facebook, and message boards gave everyone the ability to be a hot take person and before streaming shrunk the amount of time one had to provide their hot takes. Again, not to say that he can or should be reduced to hot takes, but the "persona" that has become Meltzer's position in wrestling is mostly defined by those kinds of things. I haven't watched any of the G1 yet and by the time I do no one will give a shit what I have to say about it (table for a second that they might not have anyway). Everything is bang bang bang and if you want to create and maintain the buzz around your company one of the best ways to do that is to get people buzzing on line. Further, one of the best ways to ensure that now is go big with matches and segments and spots that create a sort of visceral reaction. Matches that play into that hot-take, reactionary orientation are the currency of the realm right now. To me, much of the way some wrestlers, particularly those with a keen eye on the internet and how it may affect their career trajectories, are shaping their styles around that is a response to the how the current configuration of media is shaping wrestling far more than it is a response to Meltzer himself or how he has shaped opinions. I kind of think Meltzer is as much a sort of niche figurehead for this trend as much as anything else. Whether he is consciously going with the flow... or wrestling culture as a whole sort of happens to be falling in line a little more with his particular orientations... or he has over the years shaped this to a great degree himself, I don't ultimately know. But, I tend to be skeptical of the latter. I don't mean to take away from his significance; Meltzer has clearly helped shape wrestling culture today and maybe his influence is hardwired into what is considered a great match, but I have some trouble buying that it is more influential than a number of other factors. Regardless, the 6 star stuff and the billion 5 star matches feels more to me like him (probably mostly unconsciously) riding a wave of something bigger. I would venture a guess that most of the kids buying bullet club merch at Hot Topic don't give a damn who Dave Meltzer is or how many snowflakes he's packing. I would even venture that most wrestling fans that are involved with some of the most buzz worthy indy stuff don't give much thought to Meltzer and his stars until well after they have hyped matches themselves on their own blogs and podcasts, if they do at all. In all, the style shifts seem over-determined to me and Meltzer just feels like part of what is happening. If anything he is a face (seemingly a willing face) that swaths of fans can put on the issue.
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Even my wife has sort of soured on him and she enjoyed his shtick. That is how I know things may be hitting a wall for him. She even said the other day he looked hung over or drunk, not as funny. I don't know. The stuff I read has sort of turned me off to him a bit, but I try not to put too much stock into things I don't know for sure. If they split him from Cass and don't latch him to someone else it will feel like a death sentence to that character to me.
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I think the new-ish trend of indy wrestlers getting custom theme music made is fantastic. It helps guys stand out and it has produced some pretty badass music.
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Janela vs Darby was awesome. Honestly, nothing the whole weekend made me mark out more than Darby's dive with his arms behind his back. i was right where he dove and I was sure it was going to end badly. I think Janela has it, man. He feels big time to me now. I think in the last year or so he went all in on this stretch of his career, (calling out anyone and everyone and doing apeshit insane stunts). It has earned him a lot more notoriety and I think it has put him in the ring with a different level of wrestler and that has sharpened him as a character and a performer. Not to say he wasn't good, but I think he has taken it to another level lately. There is a different aura and energy around him when he walks through the curtain. Royal and Garrini was really fun. I am a huge Royal fan. He is always a highlight of CWF shows and I think he is very much a "live" performer (stands out just a little more in the room). Garrini gets better every time I see him. It is stupid how he is taking to wrestling. I think Royal is the type of guy Garrini could really shine with. He is a big strong dude that can let Garrini jump on him, crawl around him, and lock on those nifty submissions from different places. I hope Dom gets more opponents like that. To me, the biggest benefit of Riddle winning is establishing a cannon of well known winners that have either had or are locks to have bigger name value, making the trophy mean more down the road. I really thought Henry or Lynch should have won, but the more I thought about it on the way home the more Riddle made a lot of sense and is probably a strong choice once you think 2, 3, 4, or more years down the road. Having Riddle on that list is going to mean a lot and SCI - as has become expected - did well to put those other guys in spots to shine and come out strong.
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I too had a great time at SCI this year. I would agree that it is a lot of bang for your buck. The tournament itself was really solid, lots of action. Night two was almost exhausting. The action felt like an absolute sprint, but in a good way. There were so many good matches and performers, but I really felt like Anthony Henry was the standout performer of the weekend. He and Jay (another guy to watch in this thing) gave us match of the night for round one - for me at least. He was fantastic in the semi and main event too. Overall, just good stuff. I got introduced to some talented wrestlers and got to see some awesome action. Met Dylan after I think we have been to at least one or two shows and not crossed paths. Hats off to him and everyone else involved in organizing the weekend. Maybe next year I will put even more faces to names. I am pretty sure I talked my wife into going next year already with my pictures of the Ruby Falls caves (a really fun little side trip).
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Ok... that makes sense and goes a long with my line of thinking on what I hope the process will accomplish. The long and short is I think between lively debate and the voting system itself we should have a pretty high standard for admission. It will be years of consistent entries to start to really "catch up" since we are not streamlining anything in and keeping the ballot small. I hadn't thought about the idea that we may mess up at some point and want to reconsider, but that will take some more though (as will the first part to be a bit more specific. For now though I gotta get ready for my road trip to SCI.
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Ok.... I have been absolutely swamped with work stuff lately. Well that gets us to the core question that we have got to address: Should this Hall of Fame be a place for revisionism to happen? Yes or No? Perhaps I am being dense, but what is meant by the question? I am not 100% clear on what we are really getting at in each of the above quotes. Is the issue that the categories eliminate conversation about certain qualities by imbuing the match with that quality outright? And what is meant by "revisionsism"? Revisionism of what and from what? I have been keeping up with the thread and kept some of this in the back of my head and I a can't quite get clear on what people are asking/asserting.
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That is where it gets AWESOME to me. Comparing things people would usually never think to compare. I want to compare a death match from Big Japan to Bock-Hennig at some point in my life. And CapitalTTruth, I sincerely appreciate the thoughtful response and the work you're putting into it. I really didn't intend to be overly dismissive in my post, and re-reading it, it seems that way, so I apologize for that. I only intended to just state that I am someone who generally appreciates all aspects of wrestling, and I hope that in showing appreciation for one style or one aspect of it that I don't have to disregard another. If whatever system we get allows for that balance, then count me in. No worries at all. I really do hope that the way it set up - as Elliot articulated - lets us make those comparisons. If we find that the categories create too much of a hurdle I will be the first person championing to dissolve them. I do think, already, that those brackets helped us create a more balanced ballot and even if we dropped them down the road I would very much be in favor of maintaining them (or something similar) in the process of ballot construction. .... and don't even get me started on Bock/Hennig