Clayton Jones

This is a really great thread for such a divisive candidate. Even discussion that made me reassess Cena in both directions in ways I hadn't considered. Here's what's on my mind after my first round of watching Big Match John- for as great as he is at one off, spectacle, big fight performances, was he ever effective at building and escalating a feud? I'm sure this ties into the lack of longterm selling/continuity he's guilty of or the system is guilty of depending on your perspective, but Cena to me seems like he cooled off way too many potentially great feuds he was a part of over his career. That said I'm high on Cena overall but for someone who is touted as an all-time great American big match worker, this is a criticism that I think hurts him a good bit in my book.

What a potentially good match ruined by a desire to shoehorn in some big stunts to close out the show. For two wrestlers that had to have the clout to say "hey, how about we don't do that one really dumb thing" I can't believe neither of these guys vetoed that vehicular manslaughter spot. It's a shame because the first half of this had good drama, struggle, they were really laying it in, I even liked the Nagata Lock spot assuming they were going to come back to it. The trust fall was bad but it seemed like they were intent on using Joe Louis for something like that no matter what so it is what it is. But man I can't forgive that deal with Batista channeling his inner Suge Knight and Cena with the Batman out of the shadows surprise counter attack.

That WALTER match was great, I'm disappointed to hear he hasn't had more opportunities to be more than just another cruiserweight beyond that.

Cena brings such gravitas to this match. I watched this on a whim never remembering hearing much about it and it totally floored me. Lashley did, to his credit, have the performance of his life with the pressure on. But yeah this is one hell of a notch in Cena's career of making big entertaining matches out of often underwhelming circumstances. His selling and struggle throughout this makes Lashley feel so much bigger than he ever did in this run otherwise. Overall this match isn't great but it is very good and the face VS face, miracle performance aspect makes it all that much more endearing.

GSR did a fantastic job writing up this match so I don't have a ton to add, but man this was good. Part of it was Brooks who was a total revelation, not content to let Grey overshadow him or eat him up for one second. Opponents like that that bring out a slightly nastier edge from Grey are my favorite types of match ups for him, and he doesn't disappoint in the impressed but unflappable babyface veteran role in the slightest. Every round of this match had me hooked, I could have watched them go as many as it took to get to a finish. Although it did feel like Brooks' youthful exuberance had him reeling late and it was a matter of time before Grey put him away. Great match, great performance from both guys.

Got into the show last year and I think the ramped up schedule really helped you guys come into your own. Not that your older episodes I've listened to aren't good as well, but I think you settled into a chemistry in 2020 that makes it hard for me to miss an episode even if it's a show I skipped. As someone who was attending lots of shows in this era and buying many more DVDs I have to say of all the details you and Matt pick up on I especially appreciate the confusion and disappointment in Shelley's babyface turn that never fully turned. I felt the same exact way at the time, and while he was good in the Embassy, it felt very much like a "well, we don't know what else to do with him, so now... this" situation. This is a really foggy memory so take it lightly, but I do seem to recall something about Gabe saying he didn't make many (any?) Shelley shirts because nobody would want to buy them. I absolutely agree that he could have been one of ROH's top guys at the time but for whatever reason I don't think they ever saw him that way. Keep up the great work!

Can't wait to listen to this one.

Those are some good recommendations for Randy, I always forget about the Christian feud even though both guys bring it up constantly as among their best work. I have no recollection of that Rey match and I'm sure it's awesome. And I definitely haven't seen the Hardy match. I guess i just worked myself into a shoot and am going to add Orton to my guys under consideration, even though he's going to be a long long shot.

I would say that or the 2015 match VS Sasuke off the top of my head. But Ultimo was absolutely a dance partner and not someone who brought greatness out of lesser opponents, I would never make that argument. At his best he was a better dance partner than Orton though for my money. It's an interesting comparison, now I can't help but wonder what a match between the two would look like.

What are high end Orton matches? VS Foley in Foley's signature match? VS Cesaro, Bryan, or Harper in great TV matches that succeed 85% because of his opponent? The Evolution VS Shield match? I really like all of these, none of them convince me Orton has better high end performances than Ultimo.

Why is a babyface low blowing a heel, who isn't even cheating, justified?

That's my feeling as well. I sincerely doubt more than a voter or two could be swayed to construct the bulk of their ballot this way. And if a small minority can justify it I personally would have no problem with it. I'm more of the mindset where the very bottom of my ballot might get some votes in this direction (also punitive for some) but largely it's not an interesting way for me to participate.

I love this rivalry. I didn't even mind Fujinami staying strong (brother) in the finish so much because I loved the idea of him finally getting caught on a flash pin. That missile dropkick off essentially boxing ropes was something else. There's a clipped broadcast version of this up now too if you want different angles. Great match by both men's standards.

For me his PWG heel run likely cements his spot on my list. Without it, as Cap said, there's still a case to be made. But that stretch where him, Hero, ZSJ, and KOR were all crushing it, Strong's title run was the catalyst for so much of that era. I am very curious to see how the Diamond Mine plays out as well but even if it flops he's been one of the most consistent performers in the history of NXT. Even his babyface work before the UE turn was excellent. I love his tag with Evans, his ROH career is a post into itself, and even stuff like the Erick Stevens feud in FIP that came up last time around is shockingly great. There's a lot of Strong worth dissecting.

I thought the Balor match was the best of the 3 but that they're all too similar to make any one that remarkable.

Damn, is this the one that puts UG back on my radar for GWE? Must investigate, sounds like a miracle match.

I think his team with Kingston is worth digging into. I loved their match VS Doom Patrol in Beyond. I'm looking forward to having motivation to looking closer at TNA and JAPW Homicide as well. He'd likely make my ballot just based on his ROH career so when I get to Cide it'll really be about filling in the gaps for me.

Agreed on Sandow and Riley. Riley's attempt to return to the ring in NXT was so painfully awkward. I don't know if he was working his way back from injuries or if he was really that bad, and the storyline of "you guys think I don't have anything left to give, well watch this!!" made it that much worse.

What's surprised you in the first few months in terms of reaction/participation? What areas do you think are off to a good start and what do you hope sees improvement?

Well that's absolutely fascinating and bizarre as fuck.

Mikey is on my rough draft but towards the bottom and I'd really liked to be firmly convinced one way or another by 2026 if he deserves a spot. What do people think his best singles match was, VS Sabu? My first batch of viewing was pretty entertaining but didn't really sway me one way or another, except that it made me think that old Mikey was just washed up and fat is misleading. He was definitely broken down after WCW but I watched him VS CW Anderson from 2005 where he worked around his limitations pretty well and then by 2014 w/Tajiri VS AR Fox/Rich Swann he was actively good again. That match was a treat. I'll revisit more of this later stuff but I don't think it's devoid of good performances. Then I watched two WCW matches, VS Hak and VS Villano V, very different matches and Mikey looked very good in both. Maybe great VS Sandman. And then I went back to an ECW match I didn't remember, VS Awesome on TNN, and that was a great vintage Whipwreck performance hanging in there but making the Champ look like a world beater. Mikey is a Champion of Random Match Theory, I'll gladly watch him VS anyone and I'll rarely be disappointed. He knew his craft extremely well, and he had a deceptively deep toolbox that he used to match up well with a wide variety of opponents. But I don't know if the body of work is there to hold onto a spot at the bottom of my ballot with so many great wrestlers nipping at his heels.

I liked the Fujinami match quite a bit but haven't watched it in a long while. Also on the opposite end of his work in Japan his SWS match VS Tenryu is one hell of a spectacle.

This match rules. Physical, nasty, great build. Both guys compliment each other perfectly. It really makes me wish we had an extended run from Valentine in Texas.

He was great in the title match VS JBL if we're just talking bloody matches that show Rey's range.