WCW ongoing thread

[goc]

I don't hate it as much as Liger pinning people with slaps.

Blasphemy. Liger slapping people is the greatest thing in pro-wrestling. I should watch that instead.

 

Resulting in pinfall victories?

 

The right person slapping you can really mess you up. Just ask Ted Dibiase who got a concussion from a slap by R-Truth. Of course it's still a terrible pro wrestling finisher.

[Frankensteiner]

The lariat has been used as a finisher in the U.S. and it's been relatively accepted. JBL is the most recent example.

And probably the only one I can think off in the last 30 years. JBL stiffed the fuck out of his opponents with his lariat.

 

Windham was using a lariat to win matches during his '87-'88 run in JCP. I forget if he used that at all as a finisher in 90s WCW.

[Jingus]

Stan Hansen used the lariat in America, of course. I think Hogan used the Axe Bomber in the States as well, before the Hulkamania era really kicked off. I imagine Rick Steiner pinned plenty of jobbers with the steinerline. And quite a few indy guys today use a lariat as a finish, with Homicide probably being the most well-known example.

 

I understand Loss's point about the shotay, in that he just thinks it looks weak. That's a perfectly credible complaint. (If someone can't get into Giant Baba matches just because all his offense looks so flimsy that he couldn't break an egg, I understand that, even if I don't agree with it.) Personally, my bigger problem with moves like that is how they seem so easy to hit. If all you gotta do is just hit the guy and you instantly win, why aren't you doing that all the time? Same thing with Big Show's knockout punch. A finishers which doesn't require any setup and can be hit with ease in practically any situation is something that does bother me sometimes. If it's as simple as punching the other guy, why don't you keep trying to punch him over and over again until you hit it? Why would you need any other moves?

[El-P]

Stan Hansen used the lariat in America, of course.

For the cup of tea he had there, but Stan is mostly a japanese worker.

 

I think Hogan used the Axe Bomber in the States as well, before the Hulkamania era really kicked off.

Maybe in the AWA, I'm not sure. Still, Axe Bomber was over in NJ mostly.

 

I imagine Rick Steiner pinned plenty of jobbers with the steinerline.

Maybe. But I've seen him more using a belly-to-belly as a finisher.

 

And quite a few indy guys today use a lariat as a finish, with Homicide probably being the most well-known example.

Indy guys don't matter.

 

Ok, in the big two of the modern era, that leaves us with Windham for a year and a half before he choosed to use the superplex, Stan Hansen whenever he worked in WCW, and JBL who was a fourth rate Stan Hansen wananbe. See a pattern here, those cowboys sure like to use lariats.

[Jingus]

You're forgetting Hansen's earlier stuff. He worked in almost every territory at one point or another: WWWF, Memphis, Georgia, Texas, AWA, etcetera. Hell, he even showed up in early ECW a couple of times. So it's not like he was a Japanese exclusive.

 

I'm pretty sure that Hogan was using the clothesline during his earlier run with Vince Sr. There was the one match in the Spectrum where he took out Andre by lariating him with a loaded elbow pad, for example.

 

But the point is, there's been several top guys who've used it enough that it's a relatively established finisher. This isn't like, say, a drop toe hold or something like that which hasn't beaten anyone since 1953.

[MJH]

I understand Loss's point about the shotay, in that he just thinks it looks weak. That's a perfectly credible complaint. (If someone can't get into Giant Baba matches just because all his offense looks so flimsy that he couldn't break an egg, I understand that, even if I don't agree with it.) Personally, my bigger problem with moves like that is how they seem so easy to hit. If all you gotta do is just hit the guy and you instantly win, why aren't you doing that all the time? Same thing with Big Show's knockout punch. A finishers which doesn't require any setup and can be hit with ease in practically any situation is something that does bother me sometimes. If it's as simple as punching the other guy, why don't you keep trying to punch him over and over again until you hit it? Why would you need any other moves?

I'd hardly compare the shotei to Baba's overhand chop, but the point on a move being "too easy" I can understand. Of course, then you've got that entire debate about the "one finisher" style (which I certainly don't like). "Why don't they just hit their biggest move ASAP" is one of those things you just have to accept, though. The hierarchal system in Japan at least excuses why Misawa didn't just hit his TD '91 on everyone, but it's really just one of those things...

 

I don't see how the shotei is any different than the Yakuza Kick, or Misawa's running elbow, or, yeah, even the lariat/clothesline. If you don't buy it, you don't buy it, but I've never had a problem with it, nor can I recall it being brought up in suchaway before.

 

And I don't think Jerome was saying Hansen didn't work in America, or was unaware of it, but when all's said and done, do you think of him for that territory work or for All Japan?

[Jingus]

Of course, then you've got that entire debate about the "one finisher" style (which I certainly don't like). "Why don't they just hit their biggest move ASAP" is one of those things you just have to accept, though. The hierarchal system in Japan at least excuses why Misawa didn't just hit his TD '91 on everyone, but it's really just one of those things...

I really do hate the one-finisher style. It simply makes no logical sense, in a rather aggressively incoherent fashion. Why bother trying any move but your finisher? Or even worse, why bother making a pinfall attempt after any non-finishing move, and then acting surprised when the other guy kicks out? That's one thing I've never understood, when they do something like a simple bodyslam and then immediately go for a cover, when even a kindergartner could tell you that wouldn't be enough.

 

And I don't think Jerome was saying Hansen didn't work in America, or was unaware of it, but when all's said and done, do you think of him for that territory work or for All Japan?

I know, but he was trying to say that basically nobody besides JBL used a clothesline for a finisher in America, and that's simply not true. Hansen did plenty enough work in the States over the decades, and probably wrestled more matches in America than in Japan, we just don't have much footage of a lot of his earlier stateside stuff.

[Negro Suave]

For me personally, for a strike to be a credible finisher it has to be able to be hit near instantaneously and it has to be a visually large move. I'd buy the shotei more if Lyger would jump on someone for the flash pin. Or if he made that the follow through look huge.

 

Not to say I didn't enjoy seeing Lyger pull that move out, but in comparison to the rest of his offense it didn't seem to fit.

[goodhelmet]

I think calling the Shotay a slap misses the point that it is a palm strike. Having said that, if Lyger didn't execute it properly and it looks like a slap, I can see the problem.

 

 

 

Palm strike... pretty devastating.

Slap... takes down Tough Enough winners.

 

On that point, one of the worst finishers I remember as a kid was the RNR Express double dropkick. So many times, one of them would not connect with whatever jobber they threw out there and on a few occasions, neither would connect with the guy. When both guys did connect, great move, but it happened like 20% of the time. What made it worse was that they would show the ending in slow motion replay exposing the move.

[Loss]

I guess I don't understand the difference between a slap and a palm strike.

[Resident Evil]

A slap is when you take your complete hand and slap your opponent usually done to the face. It's a way more dangerous move than most people realise.

 

A palm strike iIrc is when you take the hard part of your hand right above the wrist and thrust it forwards/outwards hitting your opponent. It's less dangerous to your hand than a punch is but it's still very effective. It's more dangerous than a slap.

 

 

And for the record, Rick Steiner has pinned Cactus Jack with the Steinerline.

[smkelly]

Palm strikes, which I was trained to use in the Corps, are less dangerous than a knuckle sandwich, both for the striker and the strikee. However, palm strikes can easily break a wrist if not done properly. They can also kill people too. I've seen many Marines get knocked out cold from a palm strike.

 

I have no problem with Liger using the shoetei. He makes it look more realistic than the thousands of haymaker punches that were thrown in say, Memphis. You'd think that after a while of someone giving away their punches over the years by winding their arm all the way back that the wrestlers would have learned to duck or at least cover their heads. While Liger is running at an opponent, they don't exactly know what's coming at them, hence they can't simply duck or cover their head. I mean, they *do* know what's coming, but we're not supposed to know that they know what's coming their way.

 

As an aside, I think more realistic strikes are better than the obviously hokey strikes. In an entertainment field that has been gutted of its realism, making it look "real" is vastly better than, "Well, there was clearly some space between the punch and the dude's head...but he threw a nice punch anyway."

[El-P]

And I don't think Jerome was saying Hansen didn't work in America, or was unaware of it, but when all's said and done, do you think of him for that territory work or for All Japan?

I know, but he was trying to say that basically nobody besides JBL used a clothesline for a finisher in America, and that's simply not true. Hansen did plenty enough work in the States over the decades, and probably wrestled more matches in America than in Japan, we just don't have much footage of a lot of his earlier stateside stuff.

 

Come on. Stan Hansen equals Japan in everyone's mind. That's where he made his name, that's where he made his money, he's more a japanese worker than an american worker. His cup of tea in WCW and ECW in the 90's don't mean anything, he was a guy from Japan working for a while in the US. And this is in Japan where he made the "Lariato!" famous.

And in the last 30 years, very few people have used a clotheline as a finisher, and many who did quickly changed for another finisher for the remainder of their career (Hogan, except when he goes to Japan; Windham, got to the superplex). When JBL did it it was basically a throwback to Hansen, and it worked only because it was super stiff. You can argue that Hacksaw Duggan used it for a while in WWF, but that's it, he used a Brody-like knee in WCW.

Anyway, it's nothing very important either.

[El-P]

On that point, one of the worst finishers I remember as a kid was the RNR Express double dropkick. So many times, one of them would not connect with whatever jobber they threw out there and on a few occasions, neither would connect with the guy. When both guys did connect, great move, but it happened like 20% of the time. What made it worse was that they would show the ending in slow motion replay exposing the move.

Agreed. Stereo moves are awesome if hit right. If not, they can be pretty brutal.

[Jingus]

I guess I don't understand the difference between a slap and a palm strike.

It's all in the motion of the swing. A slap is when you swing your arm almost like you're throwing a hook punch. You come in from the side with your hand outstretched, and whack them in the side of the face. With a palm strike, you're striking straight forward and somewhat upward directly into their nose, so it's kind of like half an uppercut. With a slap, you hand itself is generally the only part of your body putting real momentum into the energy released. The palm strike has the power of your arm and shoulders behind it, if you're doing it right. Also, with the hand striking from the side in a slap, more energy is expended when your hand bounces off their face because you're using your arm in a multi-jointed fashion. The move fancy movement you put into a strike, generally speaking, the less it hurts. A good palm strike locks up your arm like a battering ram, so you're putting real weight into the blow.

 

That's the shoot version, anyway. In practice, I have seen Liger be lazy with it on occasion. It's a hard move to get right as a work.

[El-P]

You know how to make Stan Lane's "martial arts" kick even worse ? By debuting the Samoan Swat Team, Ranger Ross and The Great Mota (yeah, that how it was spelled) in a few weeks span.

The Michael Hayes heel turn was long overdue, he was so boring as a face. The announcing team of Ross and Hayes is just great, they have a true chemistry together, and Hayes was as great in that role as he was during the UWF days.

[El-P]

That Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat feud really was all about the matches, as the angles and interviews before Chi-Town Rumble were good, but the two rematches were just built on "well, we need a rematch". Not very compelling, but of course the matches are amazing. I still don't like the way they worked the ending of Wrestler War very much. Of course the transition toward Terry Funk makes you forget about it immediately.

The Dynamic Dudes video with "Iko Iko" is something I'm sure Shane Douglas and Laurinaitis would like to see disapear from the surface of the Earth.

The video promoting Flair vs Steamboat was pretty well done for its time, but really, "The Final Countdown" in 1985 ? Add to that the live concert from the Oakridge Boys at the PPV and wrestling appears so unhip it's not even funny. Man, WCW was so southern (but it's a part of its charm).

Terry Funk appears on TV and automatically becomes the best thing in the promotion. Amazing.

The first mark of corporate goofyness was the Dynamic Dude gimmick, complete with "oh, they are a fun loving duo, our young fans will love them" announcing which made them look even worse. The second mark of cororate goofyness was Norman the Lunatic. The first signs WCW was gonna try to out-WWF the WWF with stupid gimmicks instead of wrestlers, which was a bad idea.

Dick Murdoch feuding with Bob Orton was a fun, old-school territory feud with guys working a style alread gone out of fashion. Orton could still go at his age, and looks better than during his WWF stint.

Interesting to see the debut of Scott Steiner, not even throwing one suplex.

Sting was way goofy at this point, and not very good or interesting in the ring if not working with good opposition. I'd argue that Luger was much better at this point. Luger was taking some serious bump too then, especially a "missed clotheline propelling him over the top rope to the floor" which looked great.

[Loss]

The move from the studio to Center Stage with the hotter crowd and new look made everything seem infinitely fresher. Have you gotten to the Luger heel turn yet?

[El-P]

The move from the studio to Center Stage with the hotter crowd and new look made everything seem infinitely fresher. Have you gotten to the Luger heel turn yet?

Not yet. I'm just at the second TV show post Wrestler War. I'm glad the Steamboat feud is over because man, Steamboat über sportsman babyface character just doesn't make things very exciting on top. The entrances at WW were ridiculous : Flair got 40 women, and Steamboat came out with his ugly (yes, I'll said it and would say it again, Steamboat's baby was ugly) brat on a poney with his soon-to-divorce-him-and-take-his-money wife. I was so rooting for Flair during this whole feud, and I think I would have done it back then too at 13 years old. You don't get much closer to "pure sports build" than that in modern wrestling, and it showed why it's not a good idea. That the matches are some of the greatest ever are the saving grace of this feud, because it wasn't very exciting on weekly TV after Chi-Town. Also, Steamboat really didn't came off like The Man at all, barely a legit world champion. The way it was done really made him look like the token transitionnal champ to get some more big matches with Flair before losing the title. I didn't buy Steamboat as the World Champ very much to be honest.

 

And I agree, Center Stage made things better.

[El-P]

In one episode of WCW you had

_Sting challenging the Great Muta, which promised to be just incredible in terms of spectacular action and colorful stuff back then

_Scott Steiner debut squash with Missy Hyatt (who looked so hot back then) on his side. I never realized that the Steiner Brothers basically were born under Gilbert's watch and against Kevin Sullivan.

_Terry Funk against a young Eddie Guerrero is a great squash match, followed by a ridiculously great promo "My father put a bullet into that jackass (.....) Are you the one making the top 10 Jim Ross ? If you are I beg you on your knees !"

_A superb homoerotic vignette announcing the debut of Flying Brian (hated that they never called him by his name), with Yello's "Oh Yeah" as background music

_Another embarrassing Dynamic Dude video, this time with "Don't worry be happy"

_Teddy Long dressed as a pimp making fun of Ric Flair, and a stupid Norman vignette

_The Fabulous Freebirds, Hayes & Gordy vs The Road Warriors, ending with the SST fucking up the Warriors on the outside. I got a kick at the sense of detail put into it by the Birds, as Terry Gordy was going to jump into the mélée but Hayes being the smart guy keeping him from doing so and winning the match via count out. This wasn't even refered to by Ross, they just did it because it was right for their character to act like this. Ah, wrestlers making sense...

_A brutal spinebuster by Ron Simmons and a great flying tackle by Butch Reed in two separate matches. Hum... these two should be put together...

Just great wrestling TV.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Man, I LOVED Norman the Lunatic. The idea that Teddy Long found a maniac in a mental hospital, became his POA, and used him to fuck people up is awesome.

[El-P]

Man, I LOVED Norman the Lunatic. The idea that Teddy Long found a maniac in a mental hospital, became his POA, and used him to fuck people up is awesome.

Actually, Long said in his first interview that Norman was a childhood friend. I just don't see the link between pimp-dressed former crooked referee Teddy Long and a fat psychopat. Long eventually ending up with Doom made much more sense to me at least (although I liked Doom with Woman better).

[Johnny Sorrow]

Man, I LOVED Norman the Lunatic. The idea that Teddy Long found a maniac in a mental hospital, became his POA, and used him to fuck people up is awesome.

Actually, Long said in his first interview that Norman was a childhood friend. I just don't see the link between pimp-dressed former crooked referee Teddy Long and a fat psychopat. Long eventually ending up with Doom made much more sense to me at least (although I liked Doom with Woman better).

 

Well ok then, that makes even more sense if they were childhood friends. I'd guess that they grew up and one guy became a referee and the other went nuts and ended up in the nuthouse. I'd guess that Norman had no one else so Teddy stepped up and became his POA in order to use his old friend for his now nefarious purposes.

 

Now as soon as Norman went face I had no use for him.

 

Also, my Old Man looking over his newspaper and seeing "Norman The Lunatic" on TV had him laughing his ass off at the whole thing. It's a memory we still share to this day and bring up to make each other laugh.

[Paul Jacobi]

The move from the studio to Center Stage with the hotter crowd and new look made everything seem infinitely fresher. Have you gotten to the Luger heel turn yet?

Not yet. I'm just at the second TV show post Wrestler War. I'm glad the Steamboat feud is over because man, Steamboat über sportsman babyface character just doesn't make things very exciting on top. The entrances at WW were ridiculous : Flair got 40 women, and Steamboat came out with his ugly (yes, I'll said it and would say it again, Steamboat's baby was ugly) brat on a poney with his soon-to-divorce-him-and-take-his-money wife. I was so rooting for Flair during this whole feud, and I think I would have done it back then too at 13 years old. You don't get much closer to "pure sports build" than that in modern wrestling, and it showed why it's not a good idea. That the matches are some of the greatest ever are the saving grace of this feud, because it wasn't very exciting on weekly TV after Chi-Town. Also, Steamboat really didn't came off like The Man at all, barely a legit world champion. The way it was done really made him look like the token transitionnal champ to get some more big matches with Flair before losing the title. I didn't buy Steamboat as the World Champ very much to be honest.

 

And I agree, Center Stage made things better.

 

I agree on some of this. I don't think he got divorced until a decade or so later, but 'family man' Ricky Steamboat came across as very lame as a kid.

In retrospect, it was an angle that might have worked in 1980 as opposed to 1989 as the culture was changing.

Steamboat could have used another feud after he won the title before going back to Flair. Windham might have been a good stop gap, but he left almost immediately after Chi Town Rumble. As it was, Ricky came across as a slightly better version of Ron Garvin.

Also, Brock/ Rock at SummerSlam '02 had some nice 'pro sports build' vignettes and that worked really well. I think it really just depends on the character and dynamics as opposed to saying it just isn't a good idea.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Victator]

Look at Teddy as a referee. I could see him being pals with Norman.