El-P Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 The issue with 2/3 is that if it goes under 30 minutes, it feels rushed. And the reality is that not many workers, as good as they are, can go 30 minutes and stay interesting. Arn sure couldn't do it with Bourne. Dustin, Pillman, Austin, Rude aren't guys I want to watch for 30 minutes. Around 20 minutes, yes, but you can't work a satisfying 2/3 falls in 20 minutes. Really, the only ones that could go 30 minutes for sure at this point would be Steamboat and Windham, and probably Arn/Eaton in a tag. The more I see it unfold in context, the more I think it was a pretty bad idea. Especially when you put guys like Nikita Koloff and the Freebirds in those matches. The new format of Saturday Night has clearly taken the product down to me, and I know there will still be overlong matches under Watts. On the positive side, The Steamboat vs Rude feud takes an interesting twist with the heels accusing Steamboat of stalking Madusa. And Vader vs Sting profiling is nothing but good news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Never had a problem with Nikita Koloff in 1992 WCW. Don't get why he's rousing your ire so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Never had a problem with Nikita Koloff in 1992 WCW. Don't get why he's rousing your ire so bad. Because he's totally worthless. Seriously, as worthless a worker I've seen. Can't work a lick, cut brutal promos, shitty character (the former USSR guy who sucks up to America now that his country is "free" and sucks up to Sting). Can't even do a proper lariat and that's his only move. Way down the pit of my all time worst shitlist. I'd rather watch Tiger Jeet Singh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Wow. What are your thoughts on 80s Nikita, just as a point of comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Wow. What are your thoughts on 80s Nikita, just as a point of comparison? Haven't seen that much of him in the 80's, but from what I saw he was pretty much a tool whom Flair and Ricky Morton worked around while way past his prime Ivan or green as shit Darsow carried the load of the work for the team. The Warlord was more fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Interesting. I see him pretty interchangeable with pre-'89 Luger, only as a guy who had more charisma. But if you like Luger in the original Horsemen run and his first big babyface run, Nikita was at least as good, likely better. By '89, Luger had improved to a point where he was better than Nikita ever was, obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 The Nikita strap (Russian chain) match from 92 is awful. Â However, he's looked good in 85 on the Horsemen set from what I've seen so far. That said, Ivan does 90% of the bumping and Nikita just does a monster heel act, so he's bound to look good. Â What do people think of Ivan Koloff by the way? Got a rep has the worst ever WWF champ, but I've been impressed by his 85 stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I've never heard that rep for Ivan Koloff, at all. I usually hear that about Nash. Ivan has a rep as a good worker, and it's a deserved rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I haven't really seen a bad Ivan Koloff run. I'm surprised he has that bad champ rep. Stan Stasiak was clearly worse, but Stasiak wasn't meant to be anything special in that role anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Just a quick google for "Worst WWF Champ" will bring up myriad articles where Koloff makes bottom 5 or 10. e.g. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/693472-...ons-ever/page/8  If you look up "Generic Foreign Heel" in the dictionary, there's a picture of Ivan Koloff.  If you look up "transitional champion" in the dictionary, there is also a picture of Ivan Koloff.  Koloff had the pleasure of ending Bruno Sammartino's crazy seven-and-a-half title reign and seemed poised to have a decent run with the belt.  Nope, as jobbed only 21 days later to the hot, young prospect of the time—Pedro Morales.  Considering Koloff's reign was sandwiched between Sammartino's nearly eight year reign and Pedro's almost two years, I think it's safe to call Koloff's time with the belt a major disappointment. However, even allowing for the fact that the people who write these articles are both clueless and probably in their early 20s, the major factor seems to be that he held it for just 21 days rather than any knock on him as a worker. There's a strong suggestion that he wasn't a great worker in most of these sorts of things though.  After seeing him bump around for Morton and Gibson in 85 I'd actually like to see some peak Ivan Koloff. Seemed at least above average to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Even way past his prime, old and slow in the late 80's and early 90's, Ivan Koloff was still a good worker. So he must have been pretty damn good in his prime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 What do people think of Ivan Koloff by the way? Got a rep has the worst ever WWF champ Where the Christ did you get this from? Â Big-time player in the early 70's. After his WWWF run where he beat Bruno he came to the AWA for a few years and main-evented with Verne, followed by a run tagging with Superstar Graham. He was a credible challenger back in the WWWF all the way through the 70's when Backlund was the champ. Â "Worst ever WWF Champ"? lol.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Honest to God, whenever the subject of worst ever world champs comes up, Koloff is mentioned. Â The other context I've seen him mentioned is when people are arguing that before the 80s the WF World Title was a bit of a joke belt with nothing of the prestige or lineage of the NWA title and Koloff is pointed to as an example of how the belt wasn't that important. Â I haven't just made this up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I don't think that Bleacher Report guy understands the concept of transitional champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Saying that Koloff wasn't a good worker is just ignorance. And bottom 10, well about 45 wrestlers have held the belt. To say he was a bad champion, I guess if you're saying championship REIGNS rather than just champions, I can see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Any US champ who is over enough to challenge for the world title while champ just isn't at the bottom of the list. Nikita, Luger and Rude are the main guys I think of who had extended programs with the world champion while wearing the U.S. belt. There aren't many of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 The 2/3 falls match every week is a bad idea though. Very bad idea. Jerome:  I think this is the entire history of the 2/3 thingy. Looks like 10 of them... in the back of my head I remember coming across the Arn-Josh as being 2/3.  As you're going through them, can you create a little History of WCWSN's 2/3 Experiment set of posts? Maybe later Loss can break it out of this thread for reference.  04/04/92: WCW TV Champion Steve Austin defeated Tom Zenk in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match  04/11/92: WCW US Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Terrance Taylor defeated Michael Hayes & Jimmy Garvin in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-1, at around the 19-minute mark; fall #1: Valentine pinned Hayes at 4:05; fall #2: Garvin pinned Valentine at around the 10-minute mark; fall #3: Taylor pinned Garvin  04/18/92: Nikita Koloff defeated Larry Zbyszko (w/ Madusa) in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-0; fall #1: Koloff pinned Zbyszko at 14:32; fall #2: Koloff pinned Zbyszko at 11:02  04/25/92: Barry Windham fought WCW TV Champion Steve Austin (w/ Paul E. Dangerously) to a draw in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match; fall #1: Windham pinned Austin at 4:13; fall #2: the time limit expired at 5:39 as Windham had Austin covered following a suplex  05/02/92: Arn Anderson pinned Big Josh with a spinebuster (?)  05/09/92: Barry Windham defeated WCW TV Champion Steve Austin (w/ Paul E. Dangerously) to win the title in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match; fall #1: Windham pinned Austin at 10:57; fall #2: Austin pinned Windham at 4:57; fall #3: Windham pinned Austin at 5:40  05/16/92: Scotty Flamingo defeated Johnny B. Badd in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-1  05/23/92: Rick Steamboat & Nikita Koloff & Dustin Rhodes defeated Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton & & Larry Zbyszko at around the 23-minute mark in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-1; fall #1: Steamboat pinned Zbyszko; fall #2: Rhodes was disqualified; fall #3: Koloff pinned Anderson  05/30/92: The Great Muta defeated Brad Armstrong in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-0; fall #1: Muta pinned Armstrong at 21:45; fall #2: Muta pinned Armstrong at 6:09  06/06/92: WCW TV Champion Barry Windham defeated Arn Anderson in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I think this is the entire history of the 2/3 thingy. Looks like 10 of them... in the back of my head I remember coming across the Arn-Josh as being 2/3. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=13612 Â D'oh! Â Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 As you're going through them, can you create a little History of WCWSN's 2/3 Experiment set of posts? Maybe later Loss can break it out of this thread for reference. These are the ones I've seen thus far : Â 04/04/92: WCW TV Champion Steve Austin defeated Tom Zenk in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match Felt a bit rushed, but not bad, as Zenk is usually pretty dependable as the undercard competitive JTTS. Austin is slowly going into his groove, although depending too much on restholds at times during control segments... Â 04/11/92: WCW US Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Terrance Taylor defeated Michael Hayes & Jimmy Garvin in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-1, at around the 19-minute mark; fall #1: Valentine pinned Hayes at 4:05; fall #2: Garvin pinned Valentine at around the 10-minute mark; fall #3: Taylor pinned Garvin Bad match. I like Taylor and Valentine a lot, but the Freebirds are useless at this point. They probably could have worked a decent 10 minutes go-go match but you don't want to give the Birds any time to kill. Taylor has been one of the best worker on TV since he turned heel in late 90, but there is no hope with going this long with the Birds. Â 04/18/92: Nikita Koloff defeated Larry Zbyszko (w/ Madusa) in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-0; fall #1: Koloff pinned Zbyszko at 14:32; fall #2: Koloff pinned Zbyszko at 11:02 God awful. Zbyszko is a guy whose stock went up since he showed up in WCW, being quite the workhorse actually in tag matches and delivering quite a bit of offense and fun badmouthing. Going single against Nikita for 25 minutes, forget it. He stalls efficiently at first but then he has to do something with Koloff, and there's nothing to get out of him. Koloff's offense consist of 90% of restholds, and he proceeds to blow stuff up still. Eye gougingly boring match. Â 04/25/92: Barry Windham fought WCW TV Champion Steve Austin (w/ Paul E. Dangerously) to a draw in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match; fall #1: Windham pinned Austin at 4:13; fall #2: the time limit expired at 5:39 as Windham had Austin covered following a suplex Hey, this one actually had potential to develop into something as Windham is one of those guy who can go long. Of course, after giving Nikita and the Birds 25 minutes, Windham and Austin get 5. Fuck you Dusty. Good for what it is. Â 05/02/92: Arn Anderson pinned Big Josh with a spinebuster (?) I like Arn a lot. I like Bourne quite a bit, and he usually worked around the ridiculous Big Josh gimmick efficiently enough, but they just can't go 35 minutes. A very good 15 minutes match is buried into overlong work the limb sequences. Arn wins the first fall while holding the ropes. Josh wins the second one while holding the tighs (which evil midget Jason Hervey proceed to notice, playing heel after sucking up to the faces during the show) and Arn wins the third fall with the spinbuster. Much ado about nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Wow. What are your thoughts on 80s Nikita, just as a point of comparison? Haven't seen that much of him in the 80's, but from what I saw he was pretty much a tool whom Flair and Ricky Morton worked around while way past his prime Ivan or green as shit Darsow carried the load of the work for the team. The Warlord was more fun...  The Magnum/ Nikita best of seven series had some awesome matches. Nikita in the 80's was a blast. Can't work a lick, cut brutal promos, shitty character (the former USSR guy who sucks up to America now that his country is "free" and sucks up to Sting). Can't even do a proper lariat and that's his only move. Nikita was green, but he was a great monster. His promos on Magnum and Dusty were great, his initial face turn ranks up there with the biggest surprises and most awesome angles ever, and the Russian Sickle clothesline was killer.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chess Knight Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Guess I'm the only one here who really loved Arn/Josh, then? Â Nikita was pretty passable for me in 1992 WCW, but I really liked the thing where he might backstab everyone come WarGames. Not sure how many other guys they could have plugged into that role at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Interesting. I see him pretty interchangeable with pre-'89 Luger, only as a guy who had more charisma. But if you like Luger in the original Horsemen run and his first big babyface run, Nikita was at least as good, likely better. By '89, Luger had improved to a point where he was better than Nikita ever was, obviously. When I watched 1985 JCP, I found Nikita to be one of the most compelling guys on the roster. I loved his promos and I could watch hours of him beating the shit out of some helpless jobber. There's one squash he did where he just ran over this chump in like a minute and covered him and had this wild look on his face and he was hissing. It was just a great moment for what an animal the guy was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Just a quick google for "Worst WWF Champ" will bring up myriad articles where Koloff makes bottom 5 or 10. e.g. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/693472-...ons-ever/page/8 Â If you look up "Generic Foreign Heel" in the dictionary, there's a picture of Ivan Koloff. So who in the fuck is Mike Shannon and why should we care what he thinks? Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Don't know why you think Windham can do long matches, especially with a 1992 Steve Austin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Don't know why you think Windham can do long matches, especially with a 1992 Steve Austin. Because apart from Steamboat, he's the most experienced at working long matches, and he was probably still one of the 2 or 3 best workers in the company at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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