WCW ongoing thread

[Matt D]

Savage has so many of those in 95-96.

 

You see a match and get excited because it's Savage vs someone interesting and that's what you get.

[El-P]

Savage has so many of those in 95-96.

 

You see a match and get excited because it's Savage vs someone interesting and that's what you get.

Yeah, that is my preconception of Savage in those days. Thus far I've been rather happy with his work though, especially against Tenta and Arn, and this was the first occurence of a really disapointing Savage match. One of the most glaring instance I remember from 96 is a Finlay match on Nitro. Savage has always been better as a heel, and these kind of routine babyface match are one reason why.

[Matt D]

I think Savage has a slew of interacting matches in 92-93 WWF, though. I don't know if he thought he was getting the other guy over by giving him almost all of the offense or what?

 

The worst I can think of is a Savage vs Buck match. Buck attacks him before the bell. Beats on him for a few minutes. Savage dodges a move, bodyslams him, hits the elbow.

[El-P]

The worst I can think of is a Savage vs Buck match.

No shit ?

 

I don't know why Savage worked that way. I would guess this was a way to give to his opponents, but in the end it made them look like jabronies since Savage was eating their offense and beating them with one move. Since he wasn't as snappy (pun intended) as he was in his prime, maybe he thought that was the best way to go against lower ranked heel opponents while keeping his hit and run style of offense.

[Ricky Jackson]

Maybe Savage was just unmotivated and didn't feel the need to go all out most of the time, like a lot of the WWF guys who came over to WCW during that period.

[Matt D]

He really gave his opponents a ton of offense though. It wasn't just having a short match or a match where he didn't bump or sell.

[El-P]

Maybe Savage was just unmotivated and didn't feel the need to go all out most of the time, like a lot of the WWF guys who came over to WCW during that period.

As I'm going through WCW TV, I wouldn't really agree with that assertion. Let's see who came up from WWF during 1994/95 :

 

Big Bubba : came in very late 1993, after a stint in All Japan. Was very motivated, got the best match from Rude that year in his debut match, then worked very hard and had good matches against Vader and Sting.

Hulk Hogan : yeah, at times he really sucked, but he also worked two of his best single matches ever against Flair and Vader during that time. Didn't usually work nearly as hard as he would as nWo Hollywood though.

Hacksaw Jim Duggan : came in with Hogan. As much as I hated him getting the US title over Austin, he actually showed up for work and appeared to be motivated against Austin and Vader in 1994, and I would put these matches above anything he did in his WWF stint. It didn't last, but he wasn't any worse afterward than he was in the WWF.

Honky Tonk Man : came in with Hogan. Yeah, he sucked. But what do you expect, he's the Honky Tonk Man. He left after refusing to do a job for Johnny B. Badd I believe. What a winner.

Butcher Beefcake : came in with Hogan. Sucked horribly, showed no dignity or self-respect as he just didn't even bother to work a little bit hard to compensate for his total lack of talent. But hey, he's Beefcake, what do you expect ?

John Tenta : came in with Hogan. He's been very very good during his entire Avalanche stint, having good matches with Sting and very good matches with Savage, carrying tag matches with Sullivan or Butcher, and really delivering big time.

 

Plus Randy Savage quit the WWF because he wanted to work and not be an announcer, so I don't think it was the issue.

[Matt D]

Oh man, now I want to figure out what the best Beefcake in WCW match is. I bet he has a decent one with DDP.

[tomk]

Beefcake is a guy who would go through spurts of trying to be a bigger moveset workrate wrestler in WCW. It's fucking awful and makes you want to scratch your eyes out. He's a guy who can barely do a chop and his nechbreaker finisher, him doing lots of stuff poorly is pretty mind numbing but it isn't lazy. You wish he'd be lazier.

 

I admit I must have fast forwarded that Sting vs Keirn match, as I couldn't handle Keirn in 1994, he was just horrible.

Have you ever liked Keirn? Cause this was straight up Florida style Keirn work in the Sting match.

[El-P]

Oh man, now I want to figure out what the best Beefcake in WCW match is. I bet he has a decent one with DDP.

The first "watchable" match I've seen thus far from Beefcake is the Kevin Sullivan one at Slamboree (95), and only because Sullivan is beating the shit out of him, which always entertains me.

 

Beefcake is a guy who would go through spurts of trying to be a bigger moveset workrate wrestler in WCW. It's fucking awful and makes you want to scratch your eyes out. He's a guy who can barely do a chop and his nechbreaker finisher, him doing lots of stuff poorly is pretty mind numbing but it isn't lazy. You wish he'd be lazier.

I think that is particulary true of his Disciple days when he decided he was gonna try new stuff. Up until that period, Beefcake strikes me as just sleepwalking through his matches. Maybe that will change with the Zodiac/Booty Man period, but I do think the Beefcake you're refering too was really Disciple Beefcake trying to work harder on Thunder and probably C-shows too in 99 or so.

 

Have you ever liked Keirn? Cause this was straight up Florida style Keirn work in the Sting match.

Nope, not a big fan of Keirn to begin with. Hell, the Fabulous Ones don't do much for me.

[goodhelmet]

Yeah, who the fuck would voluntarily want to watch more Beefcake matches?

 

As for Tenta, I am excited that there may be some hidden gems in WCW because his All Japan work was great. Completely made me want to revisit his career. I don't remember him doing anything standout in WWF but I don't know if Tenta just fell into the sucktitude of early 90s WWF or if he became content collecting those fat paychecks working opposite Hogan.

 

As for Keirn, the guy has always been solid. Never the best guy on the roster but never the worst. I have a hard time believing he s all of a sudden the shits in WCW.

[El-P]

Well, Bad Attitude was the worst thing Bobby Eaton was ever involved with. When you can make a shitty tag team teaming up with Bobby Eaton, you're the shits to me.

[Matt D]

Yeah, who the fuck would voluntarily want to watch more Beefcake matches?

 

As for Tenta, I am excited that there may be some hidden gems in WCW because his All Japan work was great. Completely made me want to revisit his career. I don't remember him doing anything standout in WWF but I don't know if Tenta just fell into the sucktitude of early 90s WWF or if he became content collecting those fat paychecks working opposite Hogan.

 

As for Keirn, the guy has always been solid. Never the best guy on the roster but never the worst. I have a hard time believing he s all of a sudden the shits in WCW.

Jerome's going through them anyway. He's doing this so we don't have to.

[tomk]

I'm highly reccomending the Bad Attitude v Steamboat/Arn return bout from the Main Event.

First match together is fun but the second one is full on blast with heel in peril section, Eaton bumping all over floor, and the ridiculous choice to have Arn work FIP and him being spectacular FIP.

[El-P]

On Saturday Night, 12/14/96, DDP uses a peculiar version of the Diamond Cutter which most likely inspired the 3-D. Then after the bell, he goes right in the front of the camera and says "I'm hardcore ! Thanks Bubba Ray !" Damn. I guess DDP was "flattered" that Bubba Ray stole his move in ECW.

[El-P]

Schiavone and the other announcers not picking on the fact the Amazing French Canadian were actually singing their national anthem in *french* and saying "they don't know the words !" each time around was embarrasing.

[flyonthewall2983]

How long was Greg Valentine in WCW for in 1992? I'm watching Clash XX, and his match with Slater against Anderson/Eaton was always a highlight for me.

[funkdoc]

God, they debuted a lot of new guys in 1990 but all of them pretty much sucked (Nightstalker, Allen Ironeagle, JW Storm, Motor City Madman, Big Cat, Master Blasters, etc.).

 

just noticed this when looking through the thread since i almost never see JW storm brought up here. he didn't have nearly enough of a wrestling career to merit a microscope thread but he's an awfully fascinating character, so i figured i'd write something here since this thread isn't extremely active anyway. WARNING: long post ahead!!!

 

i don't think he sucked so much as he was just reeeeaaaally green, with a ton of potential. he had a great look and even showed some flashes of high flying - if he'd stuck around into the ECW/attitude era, i could easily see him having a big role as a mike awesome type with power moves & highspots. watching 1990 TV makes it clear WCW felt the same way, as he got quite a big push for a new guy. he went undefeated for months and the commentators kept bringing that up...until out of nowhere he jobbed clean to brad armstrong (THE CANDYMAN, no less) in his one PPV appearance and was never seen on TV again.

 

turns out that he had been secretly negotiating a deal with the WWF, and WCW found out and turfed him. the WWF didn't sign him then either, so maybe that cost him 2 jobs. he did get a cup of coffee with the WWF in early '92, largely doing house-show jobs to rick martel (e.g. this one from MSG). they were going to give him a long-term spot, as they taped a TV segment with jimmy hart debuting him as his newest signing, but he left before it could air. he later admitted that the money wasn't there for him, which makes sense given the business decline of the early 90s.

 

the most interesting part of his life is what happened after wrestling, though. he became a pro boxer and attracted investors with the same raw potential that drew in WCW & the WWF; people were paying tens of thousands apiece (and over $100k in at least one case) for a stake in the next great white hope. he actually had a couple fights during his wrestling career but really focused on boxing after he retired, and built up a 13-1 record. he continued to go undefeated afterward as there was talk of fights with mike tyson & george foreman...but he kept dodging real fights and the boxing commissions investigated him. the end result was one of boxing's bigger scandals, as it was found that many of his fights were fixed and many of his opponents were jobbers handpicked by his people. he would fight other wrestlers, which is why you can find some familiar names with only one pro fight. he even had multiple fights with the same guy plucked from a homeless shelter, who used a different name each time and made $50-200 to lose. humorously enough, "Tony Rich" and "Terry Taylor" were among these pseudonyms!

 

it all came crashing down and he never did get that big money fight everyone hoped for...so he became a pastor. not the mellow type you normally think of, but one of those guys who breaks blocks with his forehead and performs other feats of strength to show the power of jesus. he also got back into boxing in recent years, this time as the trainer of a former NFL player named ray edwards. in 2012 he was sentenced to 3 years probation for intent to distribute steroids, and more recently there has been talk that edwards's fights may also have been fixed...

 

definitely enough of a carny for pro wrestling, but i guess he found more profitable avenues!

[pantherwagner]

Holy shit. That's a tremendous post on JW Storm. Here's a twist on the "does wrestling attract insane people or do people become insane because they work in wrestling?" age old question. Does wrestling attract carnies or do people become carnies because they work in wrestling?

 

In my early teens I was very curious about him for two reasons: I read a mag (an Apter mag I guess) that had a write-up about him as the next big thing in wrestling, and he was Art Barr's partner (as BIG JUICER, no less) and Barr was my favourite back then. What a letdown when I actually saw him wrestle for the first time.

 

Anyway, I only came to this thread to mention what funkdoc was actually quoting. Been watching some Clashes and tons of new young guys in 1990 and 1991 and pretty much all of them are atrocious. You'd think with all those supposed brilliant wrestling minds there at the time that there would have been some sort of filter.

 

Also I forgot how awesome was that Sid Vicious used to be billed "from anywhere he darn well pleases".

[Petey]

They may have had a lot of brilliant wrestling minds, but no amount of wrestling brilliance could overcome Jim Herd, especially when he was the one with the most power.

[pantherwagner]

I guess you could point at Herd during that era but it’s really more of a WCW trademark than anything else. People like Van Hammer, Erik Watts, The Cole Twins, Jungle Jim Steele, Ice Train, Charlie Norris and others I'm probably forgetting kept showing up years after he left. I guess they were very lucky that a stripper like Marcus Bagwell ended up being a pretty good hand after only a couple of years in the business.

[El-P]

Don't speak ill of the Cole Twins. They were a pretty decent team in that wretched WCW 1993. Ice Train had some potential too (never realized), although I never understood the name (Big E Langston is a much better name, I guess)

[funkdoc]

someone on here posted before that it seemed like WCW's scouting department consisted of a subscription to PWI. there's something to that, as a lot of these guys you mentioned were indie wrestlers whose names kept showing up in the apter mags.

 

you even left out a bunch who fit this mold! e.g. slazenger/pierce, the equalizer, the blackhearts, the colossal kongs, big sky, the mongolian mauler

 

and thanks, wagner! =) i would say JW storm was more a case of a carny attracted to wrestling. people mentioned that he didn't last in college football because of maturity and other issues, and he was playing up the jesus thing while his boxing career was getting exposed

 

if you're interested, this stuff came from a couple articles which have a lot more details - http://www.hack-man.com/Wrestling/NewsArticles/20000319-ShadowBoxer.html & http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/21121306/edwards-continues-boxing-career-under-massive-shadow

[El-P]

Great post on JW Storm ! Amazing story.

[El-P]

I've mostly not been bothered with rewatching Benoit & Woman on WCW TV in late 96, but the very personnal promos leading to Chris vs Sullivan at Superbrawl 7, with Jackie involved, have reached a whole new level of uncomfortable.