NintendoLogic Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 The crux of Bret's claim of drawing power is obviously his status as an international draw. Unfortunately, actual numbers seem hard to come by. It's mostly anecdotal evidence and factoids like him being voted athlete of the year by a German teenybopper magazine. Other than that, there's the Farmer list. Sure, it has issues, but Dave has cited it as an authority, so make of that what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Dave once had a stat that Riki Choshu has headlined more shows that drew a $1 million+ gate than anyone in wrestling history. Of course, he said that back in 2000, so I'm sure the dome Manias that happen every year may mean that isn't true anymore. Even in 2000 it would have been a boondoggle. It focuses on Live Gate, and ignored that Hogan only needed to do 33,333 buys at $30 a pop to get to a $1M revenue number on a PPV... and we know he was doing far bigger PPV buys. Of course Hogan, Bret, and all the US top guys had the PPV advantage that puroresu guys in the hot 90s didn't have. It's more than a bit apples and oranges. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 The crux of Bret's claim of drawing power is obviously his status as an international draw. Unfortunately, actual numbers seem hard to come by. It's mostly anecdotal evidence and factoids like him being voted athlete of the year by a German teenybopper magazine. Other than that, there's the Farmer list. Sure, it has issues, but Dave has cited it as an authority, so make of that what you will. I'd actually make a claim to say Austin drew more than Bret internationally but WWE was on fire come 1998. Mayhem in Manchester - Manchester, England - Nynex Arena - April 4, 1998 (18,514; sell out) WWF @ Obenhausen, Germany - Arena - April 5, 1998 WWF @ Berlin, Germany - Deutschlandhalle - April 6, 1998 (8,000) WWF @ Beyereuth, Germany - Oberfrankenhalle - April 7, 1998(12,000) WWF @ Hamburg, Germany - Sporthalle - April 8, 1998 WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - GM Place - July 4, 1998 (12,746) WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Skydome - August 1, 1998 (14,688) WWF @ Montreal, Quebec - Molson Centre - August 2, 1998 (11,209) WWF @ Calgary, Alberta - Saddledome - September 11, 1998 (14,017) WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Skydome - February 8, 1999 (41,432; 38,661 paid) WWF @ Oberhausen, Germany - Arena - April 1, 1999 (7,048) WWF @ Sheffield, England - Arena - April 2, 1999 (12,744; sell out) WWF @ Newcastle, England - Telewest Arena - April 3, 1999 (10,699; sell out) WWF @ Birmingham, England - NEC Arena - April 4, 1999 (12,236; sell out) WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - GM Place - April 16, 1999 (14,599) WWF @ Calgary, Alberta - Saddledome - April 17, 1999 (15,419; sell out) WWF @ Edmonton, Alberta - Skyreach Centre - April 18, 1999 (16,874; sell out) WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Skydome - April 23, 1999 (17,402) WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Skydome - July 24, 1999 (15,220) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 WWF @ London, England - Arena - October 10, 1989 (sell out) Debut in the UK Mark Rocco, Dave Finlay, & Skull Murphy defeated Dale Wolfe, Al Perez, & Tim Horner Also included 2 other WWF vs. UK tag team matches Televised live on SKY ONE - featured Tony Schiavone & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary; included Gene Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with King Jim Duggan regarding his upcoming match against the Honkytonk Man and being in England as the WWF's king; featured Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Honkytonk & Jimmy Hart regarding his upcoming bout against Duggan; moments later, Hart brought in Jacques & Raymond Rougeau to discuss their upcoming match against Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Hart & Dino Bravo about Bravo & Randy Savage facing WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Duggan the next night in Birmingham; moments later, Duggan chased Bravo & Hart off with his 2X4 before cutting a promo on the next night's tag team match; featured Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Hogan, alongside Miss Elizabeth, on his match later in the night against Savage; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Savage, alongside Sensational Sherri, about his upcoming match against Hogan: Koko B. Ware pinned Boris Zhukov (w/ Nikolai Volkoff) at 11:00 with a missile dropkick Dino Bravo (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Bret Hart at 16:09 with a roll over and using the tights for leverage (World Tour 1990) King Jim Duggan pinned the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) at 8:37 following the running clothesline; after the bout, Duggan cleared the ring of Hart and Honky with his 2x4 (World Tour 1990) Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Jacques & Raymond Rougeau (w/ Jimmy Hart) at around 23:30 when Jannetty pinned Jacques after Michaels hit him with Hart's megaphone behind the referee's back; following the Rougeaus' entrance, Gene Okerlund conducted a backstage interview with Michaels & Jannetty regarding the upcoming bout (Live in the UK: April 2010) The Brooklyn Brawler pinned Paul Roma at 6:11 by using the tights for leverage after the momentum of a high crossbody put the Brawler on top WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Randy Savage (w/ Sensational Sherri) with the legdrop at around the 14-minute mark (Hulkamania Forever) Wow, look at that card. What was the main event? Has to be Bret vs. Dino Bravo surely? Unless anyone wants to argue it was Brawler vs. Roma. However, we can't chalk this up to Bret's popularity, not in 1989. Has to be the WWF brand selling the show here. I missed the Hogan match! Let's say Hogan / WWF brand. ---------------- WWF @ Birmingham, England - NEC - October 11, 1989 Bret Hart vs. the Honkytonk Man Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty vs. Jacques & Raymond Rougeau (singles bouts) WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (w/ Miss Elizabeth) & King Jim Duggan vs. Randy Savage & Dino Bravo Also featured 3 matches pitting WWF talent against UK talent Again, this has to be WWF brand selling the show. ------------- WWF @ Brussels, Belgium - October 12, 1989 It was after this event that Koko B. Ware was fired for engaging in a hotel room brawl with WWF Exec Jim Troy; Troy instigaed the incident and later resigned Koko B. Ware defeated the Brooklyn Brawler King Jim Duggan defeated Dino Bravo Bret Hart defeated the Honkytonk Man Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Jacques & Raymond Rougeau Paul Roma defeated Boris Zhukov WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Randy Savage Poor Koko. Hogan is on this show, and Bret is just in the midcard. Give it to WWF brand or Hogan. ---------- WWF @ Paris, France - Versailles Arena - October 13, 1989 (sell out) Tim Horner defeated the Brooklyn Brawler at the 14-minute mark Bret Hart defeated the Honkytonk Man via disqualification at 15:25 Jim Duggan pinned Dino Bravo Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Jacques & Raymond Rougeau (w/ Jimmy Hart) at around the 15-minute mark when Jannetty pinned Jacques following a piledriver from Michaels behind the referee's back (World Tour 90) Paul Roma pinned Boris Zhukov WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Randy Savage (w/ Sensational Sherri) with a clothesline and the legdrop at 12:01 as Elizabeth held Sherri back from interfering (World Tour 1990, Hulkamania 6, WWF Champion Hulk Hogan's Greatest Matches) During the European tour, the Rockers were fired but rehired the following day. Again, Hogan / WWF. Naughty Marty no doubt. ------------- WWF @ Montreal, Quebec - Forum - October 20, 1989 Tugboat defeated Barry Horowitz The Genius defeated Sam Houston Dino Bravo pinned Bret Hart Mr. Perfect pinned Jimmy Snuka Demolition Smash & Jim Neidhart defeated Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior defeated Andre the Giant Randy Savage defeated Jim Duggan via count-out Just pulling this card out because it's notable that they didn't put Dino Bravo in the main event. Wonder if the crowd cheered him vs. Bret. -------- WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - October 29, 1989 (9,000) Featured Billy Red Lyons conducting an in-ring interview with Bobby Heenan in which he discussed Andre the Giant's rematch against WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior at the following month's card; Heenan said he tricked Warrior into accepting a steel cage stipulation, saying that Warrior thought they didn't want the match so he demanded it Prime Time Wrestling - 12/11/89: Nikolai Volkoff pinned Jose Luis Rivera when the momentum of a crossbody by Rivera put Volkoff on top Hercules defeated Akeem via count-out Dino Bravo defeated Bret Hart via count-out after Hart was knocked off the apron into the ringside barrier, breaking his ribs and sternum in the process; after the bout, Hart was taken backstage on a stretcher WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition defeated Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard Dusty Rhodes pinned the Big Bossman WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior defeated Andre the Giant (w/ Bobby Heenan) via disqualification at 10:41 after Andre shoved the referee in front of the champion; after the altercation but before the bell rang to end the match, Andre further attacked the champion and executed several headbutts to the back of the head before dropping an elbow and making the cover; moments later, as Andre celebrated with the title belt, Warrior attacked him from behind and knocked him to the floor (The Ultimate Warrior) Randy Savage pinned Jim Duggan In 1989, no difference in Toronto. Bret vs. Dino just a midcard match. --------- WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - December 26, 1989 (7,500) Earthquake defeated Mark Young Jim Neidhart defeated the Brooklyn Brawler The Honkytonk Man pinned the Red Rooster Ron Garvin pinned Greg Valentine Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated the Powers of Pain via disqualification when Mr. Fuji interfered; after the bout, Jannetty had to be taken out on a stretcher after being the victim of a triple-team attack; moments later, Jim Duggan made the save Jim Duggan (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Randy Savage via count-out after hitting him with Sensational Sherri's purse WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Dino Bravo; after the bout, Warrior fought off an interfering Earthquake Interestingly, Bravo is moved up to main event on this Toronto card, but it's part of the Earthquake angle anyway. ---------- Not a lot to say about 1989 other than that Bret was present during the European tour. It's possible that for those fans who attended those shows, he was memorable in his performance. We don't have numbers for most of them. It's safe to say that wWF brand was drawing there though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Also, I realize this doesn't have anything to do with him as a wrestler, but I could be convinced that Riki Choshu is the best booker of all time. I've spent 17+ years saying Riki was the Jerry West of pro wrestling: top tier hall of famer as both a player/wrestler and as a front office guy. Jerry wasn't the best player of all-time, and one can argue where among the best GM's he would rank... just as with Riki. But they'd both be very high on each list. More than that... you'd probably want them on your side relative to a lot of other folks. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Doesn't look like there was a European tour in 90, so skipping to 1991. UK Rampage 91 - London, England - Docklands Arena - April 24, 1991 Dave Taylor, Tony St. Clair, & Danny Collins defeated Drew McDonald, Chic Cullen, & Johnny South when Taylor pinned McDonald The Brooklyn Brawler pinned Steve Casey Televised live on SKY Movies+ - included Vince McMahon & Roddy Piper on commentary; featured Gene Okerlund conducting an interview on the platform with Ted Dibiase & Sensational Sherri regarding Dibiase's upcoming match with Kerry Von Erich, during which Dibiase cut a promo on Piper, who was sitting nearby at the broadcast table; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Haku regarding his upcoming match with Greg Valentine; featured Okerlund conducting an interview with Valentine on the interview platform regarding his upcoming bout; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty regarding their upcoming match against the Orient Express; featured Okerlund conducting an interview on the platform with Mr. Fuji & the Orient Express regarding the upcoming match; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan regarding his being the first ever three-time WWF World Champion and facing Sgt. Slaughter later in the night; during the segment, Hogan claimed he had just come from visiting Buckingham Palace; featured Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Andre the Giant regarding his appearance ringside with Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty earlier in the show; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with the Brooklyn Brawler in which he said Brooklyn was much better than London; featured Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Jim Neidhart regarding his win earlier in the night over the Warlord; moments later, the Warlord interrupted, with the two then fighting over a chair; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Jake Roberts regarding his upcoming match against Earthquake; featured Okerlund conducting an interview on the platform with Earthquake regarding the upcoming bout; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Davey Boy Smith regarding his win earlier in the show, during which Smith mentioned all his family were watching at home; Smith then noted he would face WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect May 2 during the UK tour; featured Okerlund conducting an interview on the platform with Sgt. Slaughter, with Gen. Adnan, regarding his match with Hogan later in the show: Ted Dibiase (w/ Sensational Sherri) defeated Kerry Von Erich via count-out at 14:05 when Sherri scratched Von Erich's back as he was fighting with Dibiase outside the ring, with Dibiase then sliding back in before the 10 count; after the match, Von Erich cleared Dibiase from the ring Greg Valentine pinned Haku with a sunset flip at 8:41 (Rampage 91) Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty (w/ Andre the Giant) defeated the Orient Express (w/ Mr. Fuji) at 15:46 when Jannetty pinned Kato with a double flying fistdrop off the top after Andre hit Kato with Fuji's cane; before the bout began, Fuji hit Jannetty with his cane which led to the Rockers going backstage and returning with Andre (World Tour 91) Jim Neidhart pinned the Warlord with a roll up at 13:31 after Warlord hit the turnbuckle (World Tour 91) Jimmy Snuka pinned the Barbarian at 15:56 with a sunset flip into the ring after the Barbarian attempted to grab the ropes for leverage; late in the bout, the lights briefly went out with a spotlight then being shown down on the ring Davey Boy Smith pinned the Berzerker (sub. for Rick Martel) (w/ Mr. Fuji) with the running powerslam at 16:03 after avoiding a charge in the corner Earthquake defeated Jake Roberts via disqualification at 11:11 when Roberts tripped Earthquake and pulled Damien out of the bag after Earthquake pulled the snake bag into the ring and attempted to hit the sit-down splash on Damien; after the bout, Roberts scared referee Mike Chioda out of the ring with Damien WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Sgt. Slaughter (w/ Gen. Adnan) at 16:01 with the legdrop after Adnan accidentally threw salt in the challenger's eyes Interesting how they were using local talent on these shows. This is still all Hogan / WWF. Though Davey Boy has a reasonably high up place on the card. ---------- WWF @ Glasgow, Scotland - SECC - April 25, 1991 Jimmy Snuka pinned the Brooklyn Brawler Kerry Von Erich defeated the Warlord via disqualification Jake Roberts defeated the Berzerker Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated the Orient Express Jim Neidhart defeated Haku Davey Boy Smith defeated Earthquake via count-out The Barbarian pinned Greg Valentine with his feet on the ropes Roddy Piper defeated Ted Dibiase Pretty big win for Davey Boy there. Interesting to see they went with Piper vs. DiBiase as the main event there though. ------------ WWF @ Belfast, Northern Ireland - Kings Hall - April 26, 1991 Debut in Ireland Jimmy Snuka defeated the Brooklyn Brawler Jim Neidhart defeated Haku The Barbarian defeated Greg Valentine Jake Roberts defeated the Berzerker Kerry Von Erich defeated the Warlord Davey Boy Smith defeated Earthquake Roddy Piper defeated Ted Dibiase via disqualification when Sensational Sherri hit Piper with her loaded purse after he pulled her dress off Andre the Giant, Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Mr. Fuji & the Orient Express when Andre scored the pin Christ, Andre in 91!! One wonders how he made the plane journey. This is the old bringing in Andre as a star attraction routine. Still have Piper / DiBiase above the Daveyboy match. Bret is noticeably absent from this tour. ---------- WWF @ Dublin, Ireland - Point Depot - April 27, 1991 The Warlord pinned Jimmy Snuka Jim Neidhart pinned the Barbarian Jake Roberts pinned the Berzerker Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty (w/ Andre the Giant) defeated the Orient Express when Shawn Michaels pinned Tanaka Greg Valentine defeated the Brooklyn Brawler via submission with the figure-4 Kerry Von Erich pinned Haku Roddy Piper defeated Earthquake via count-out after both men began brawling on the floor Davey Boy Smith pinned Ted Dibiase Interesting, Bulldog is now switched up to the mainevent. For the one show not in the UK! lol I wonder if the Irish fans cheered Ted there. ----------- WWF @ Manchester, England - G-Mex Centre - April 28, 1991 (matinee) Jimmy Snuka defeated the Brooklyn Brawler Jim Neidhart defeated Haku The Barbarian defeated Greg Valentine Kerry Von Erich defeated the Warlord via disqualification after the Warlord shoved the referee Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty (w/ Andre the Giant) defeated the Orient Express Jake Roberts defeated the Berzerker Davey Boy Smith defeated Earthquake via count-out Roddy Piper defeated Ted Dibiase Back in Manchester and it's Piper vs. Ted again. ---------- WWF @ Manchester, England - G-Mex Centre - April 28, 1991 Dave Taylor, Tony St. Clair, & Danny Collins defeated Skull Murphy, Chic Cullen, & Johnny Smith when St. Clair pinned Murphy Greg Valentine defeated Haku Jim Neidhart defeated the Barbarian The Orient Express defeated Jimmy Snuka & Koko B. Ware when Kato pinned Koko The Berzerker defeated Tito Santana Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Demolition when Jannetty pinned Smash; Andre the Giant ran Mr. Fuji from ringside before the match Jake Roberts pinned the Warlord with a DDT Davey Boy Smith pinned Ted Dibiase Roddy Piper defeated Earthquake via count-out Switcheroo time again, but Piper still in main event. It's only just twigged ... Piper is meant to be Scottish!! lol -------- WWF @ Birmingham, England - NEC - April 30, 1991 Dave Taylor, Tony St. Clair, & Danny Collins defeated Drew McDonald, Chic Cullen, & Johnny South when Collins pinned Cullen Greg Valentine defeated the Brooklyn Brawler via submission with the figure-4 The Barbarian pinned Koko B. Ware with a boot to the face The Bushwhackers (w/ Andre the Giant) defeated Demolition when Butch pinned Smash after Andre hit Smash with Mr. Fuji's cane Davey Boy Smith defeated the Undertaker via disqualification Jim Duggan pinned Haku The Berzerker (sub. for Rick Martel) pinned Tito Santana Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Paul Roma & Hercules when Bret pinned Roma after both Hercules and Neidhart reversed Bret's small package behind the referee's back Jake Roberts defeated WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect via count-out after the champion sustained the DDT and fell to the floor; after the bout, Roberts left ringside with the title belt Now this is interesting. Things change around here and Jake vs. Perfect goes on top. Bret finally turns up and it's in the semi main. Davey Boy is shunted down to midcard. Win over Taker has to be big in 91 though, even by CO. ---------------- WWF @ Brighton, England - The Centre - May 1, 1991 The Barbarian pinned Greg Valentine with his feet on the ropes Haku pinned Koko B. Ware Jim Duggan pinned the Berzerker Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Paul Roma & Hercules when Hart pinned Roma WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect pinned Tito Santana with the Perfect Plex The Bushwhackers defeated Demolition when Butch scored the pin after Mr. Fuji accidentally hit one of his men with his cane Davey Boy Smith defeated the Undertaker via disqualification In Brighton, that match takes the main event. --------------- WWF @ London, England - Wembley Arena - May 2, 1991 (11,000) Dave Taylor, Tony St. Clair, & Danny Collins defeated Drew McDonald, Chic Cullen, & Johnny Smith when Collins pinned Cullen with a piledriver Koko B. Ware pinned the Brooklyn Brawler with a dropkick off the top Jim Duggan pinned the Barbarian Davey Boy Smith defeated WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect via count-out Paul Roma & Hercules defeated the Bushwhackers when Roma pinned Butch The Berzerker (sub. for Rick Martel) pinned Tito Santana Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Demolition when Bret pinned Smash Greg Valentine pinned Haku The Ultimate Warrior defeated the Undertaker via disqualification But notably in the BIG show, it's Warrior and not Davey Boy in the main event, but Davey Boy kept strong vs. Perfect. 11,000 at Wembley Arena, not bad at all. -------------- The 2nd bigger tour now: Battle Royal at Albert Hall - London, England - Royal Albert Hall - October 3, 1991 (5,000) Brian Maxine vs. Steve Regal Televised live on SKY Movies+ - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary; included Gene Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Ric Flair regarding his upcoming match with Tito Santana and taking part in the 20-man battle royal, during which Flair showed off the NWA World Title and cut a promo on facing Roddy Piper in the battle royal; featured Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with the Big Bossman regarding his upcoming match against the Earthquake and the battle royal; included Okerlund conducting an interview on the platform with Earthquake & Jimmy Hart regarding the upcoming match with Bossman, during which Earthquake said he and Typhoon would win the battle royal; featured Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Kerry Von Erich regarding the battle royal and facing the Mountie later in the show; prior to the interview, Okerlund showed off the Royal Samavar Trophy that would go to the winner of the battle royal; included Okerlund conducting an interview on the platform with the Mountie & Hart regarding his upcoming match with Von Erich and the battle royal; featured the Undertaker as a guest of the Funeral Parlor, during which Paul Bearer discussed Taker's upcoming match with Jim Duggan and taking part in the battle royal; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom regarding their upcoming title defense against Paul Roma & Hercules and taking part of the battle royal; featured Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Davey Boy Smith regarding his upcoming match with the Barbarian and taking part in the battle royal; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with the Nasty Boys & Hart regarding their participation in the battle royal: The Nasty Boys (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty at 16:21 when Jerry Saggs pinned Jannetty after Brian Knobbs hit Jannetty in the back of the head with Hart's megaphone, behind the referee's back, after Michaels gorilla press slammed his partner onto Knobbs for a cover Ric Flair pinned Tito Santana at 16:14 with a roll over and grabbing the tights for leverage; Flair came out in possession of the NWA World Title and referee Danny Davis held up the belt before the bout as though it were a title match Earthquake (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned the Big Bossman at 15:47 with an elbow drop after the Mountie came ringside and tripped Bossman from the floor The Mountie (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Kerry Von Erich with his feet on the ropes at 13:16 (World Tour 92) The Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer) defeated Jim Duggan via disqualification at 6:18 after Duggan repeatedly hit Taker with his 2x4; prior to the bout, an organist dressed as the Phantom of the Opera performed Taker's entrance music as Taker made his way to the ring; after the contest, Duggan hit Taker with the board, knocking him over the top rope to the floor (Live in the UK: November 08) WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated Paul Roma & Hercules at 9:08 when Road Warrior Animal pinned Roma by catching him coming off the top and hitting a powerslam Davey Boy Smith pinned the Barbarian with the running powerslam at 10:07 after avoiding a charge in the corner; Lord Alfred Hayes served as the guest ring announcer for the introductions Davey Boy Smith won a 20-man battle royal by last eliminating Typhoon at 14:39; Lord Alfred Hayes provided guest commentary for the contest; other participants included: the Mountie, the Undertaker, Ric Flair, Roddy Piper, the Big Bossman, Jim Duggan, Earthquake, Hercules & Paul Roma, Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty, the Nasty Boys, WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom, Roddy Piper, Tito Santana, and Kerry Von Erich; order of elimination: Hercules by Hawk (2:26); Von Erich by Brian Knobbs & the Barbarian (2:41); Knobbs by Piper (3:24); Jannetty by Typhoon (3:40); Barbarian by Santana (4:16); Santana by Earthquake (4:40); Hawk by Jerry Saggs (5:14); Saggs by Duggan & Animal (5:19); Michaels by the Mountie (5:50); Duggan by Earthquake (6:39); Earthquake by Duggan after Duggan hit him with his 2x4 (7:11); Flair by Piper (7:45); Roma by Smith (8:57); Animal by Undertaker (9:06); Undertaker by Piper (9:33); Piper by Taker, who dragged Piper over the top rope while he was on the outside; Bossman by Mountie (11:26); Mountie by Typhoon (13:38); Typhoon by Smith (Live in the UK: November 2009) Bulldog is being put over huge here. Though I always remember it was Legion of Doom on the front cover of the VHS. They worked semi-main. --------------- WWF @ London, England - Wembley Arena - October 4, 1991 (12,000) Tito Santana defeated the Barbarian Jim Duggan fought Typhoon to a double count-out Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Hercules & Paul Roma when Jannetty pinned Roma The Big Bossman defeated the Mountie Ric Flair pinned Kerry Von Erich with his feet on the ropes Davey Boy Smith (w/ Andre the Giant) pinned Earthquake after hitting him with Andre's crutch The Undertaker defeated Roddy Piper via disqualification when Piper used the urn as a weapon WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys when Road Warrior Hawk pinned Sags Notably, at the big show, it's LOD in the main event. They've started pairing Davey Boy with Andre, that must be to give him some sort of rub. ----------------- WWF @ Barcelona, Spain - Palau Sant Jordi - October 5, 1991 (19,000) Televised on Tele5 Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Paul Roma & Hercules at 10:54 when Michaels pinned Roma with a roll up after Hercules accidentally hit his own partner with the steel chain The Mountie (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated the Big Bossman via count-out at 9:17 when the Bossman chased Hart up the aisle after hitting the sidewalk slam on the Mountie; after the bout, Bossman assaulted the Mountie with the nightstick Roddy Piper pinned the Barbarian with a sunset flip at 6:31 (World Tour 92) Davey Boy Smith (w/ Andre the Giant) pinned Earthquake with a powerslam at 8:15 after Andre hit Earthquake with one of his crutches (World Tour 92, "The British Bulldog" Davey Boy Smith ) WWF Superstars (French & Italian versions): Typhoon (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Jim Duggan via disqualification at 8:43 when Duggan used his 2x4 as a weapon; late in the bout, Typhoon tried to use the weapon behind the referee's back but was stopped by Duggan WWF Superstars (Italian version): WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys (w/ Jimmy Hart) at 11:40 when Road Warrior Hawk pinned Jerry Saggs with the clothesline off the top as Saggs attempted a piledriver to Road Warrior Animal Ric Flair pinned Kerry Von Erich at 15:15 after knocking Von Erich down with a shoulder through the ropes as he stood on the apron and then sliding in the ring and putting his feet on the ropes for leverage during the cover (WWF Wrestling World Tour) Tito Santana pinned the Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer) at 13:53 after escaping from the bodybag, hitting three piledrivers, stealing the urn from Bearer, and hitting Taker with it; after the bout, Santana was interviewed at ringside Wow, big gate in Spain here. And .... TITO PINNED THE UNDERTAKER. El Matador pinned the Undertaker!! In 1991!!! Holy shit. Ha ha ha. Bulldog positioned with Andre again. Bret is not on this tour yet. Notable that Flair is basically buried in the middle of these cards. I don't think these audiences would have known him that well. ---------------- WWF @ Brussels, Belgium - Forest National - October 6, 1991 Tito Santana vs. the Warlord Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty vs. Paul Roma & Hercules The Big Bossman vs. the Mountie Jim Duggan vs. Typhoon Davey Boy Smith (w/ Andre the Giant) vs. Earthquake Roddy Piper vs. the Undertaker WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom vs. the Nasty Boys It's LOD on top again. I was expecting to see this. ----------- WWF @ Sheffield, England - Arena - October 7, 1991 Tito Santana defeated the Barbarian Typhoon defeated Jim Duggan via disqualification Paul Roma & Hercules defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty when Roma pinned Jannetty The Big Bossman defeated the Mountie Roddy Piper defeated the Undertaker via disqualification Ric Flair pinned Kerry Von Erich Davey Boy Smith (w/ Andre the Giant) pinned Earthquake after hitting him with Andre's crutch WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys when Road Warrior Hawk pinned Sags Once again LOD above Davey Boy. Andre rub. ------------------ WWF @ Birmingham, England - NEC - October 8, 1991 Jim Duggan pinned Typhoon after hitting him with the 2X4 The Big Bossman defeated the Mountie via count-out Ric Flair pinned Kerry Von Erich Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Paul Roma & Hercules when Michaels pinned Roma The Undertaker defeated Roddy Piper via disqualification Tito Santana pinned the Barbarian WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys when Road Warrior Hawk pinned Knobs Davey Boy Smith pinned Earthquake They switch it up in Birmingham. Win over Earthquake by pinfall puts Davey Boy over strong. Piper vs. Taker has been midcard for much of this second tour. ---------- WWF @ Paris, France - Palais Omnisports Paris Berly - October 9, 1991 (7,000) Tito Santana pinned the Barbarian The Mountie defeated the Big Bossman via count-out The Undertaker defeated Jim Duggan via disqualification after Duggan used his 2x4 as a weapon Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Paul Roma & Hercules when Michaels pinned Roma Davey Boy Smith pinned Earthquake with a powerslam Kerry Von Erich defeated Typhoon WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys Davey Boy Smith won an 18-man battle royal by last eliminating Typhoon with a clothesline I don't know if 7,000 is a good result or not in Paris. Davey Boy is being put over STRONG though, again. I wonder if the French crowd booed him, lol. ------------- 1991 seemed to be a big year for the WWF in Europe. And it looks like they used the tour to put really build up Davey Boy and put him over. He's clearly switched up to main event as the tours progress. It's hard to attribute "drawing power" to him though based on these cards. It's clear to see that he was booked as a star though. Almost Bruno-style booking for him in places. I knew there'd be some LOD headlined shows, but the use of PIPER was a headliner in Europe was something I'd never really thought about. How much is WWF brand and how much is the names is hard to say. This hasn't helped Bret's case much, maybe that will change in 92 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 The crux of Bret's claim of drawing power is obviously his status as an international draw. Unfortunately, actual numbers seem hard to come by. It's mostly anecdotal evidence and factoids like him being voted athlete of the year by a German teenybopper magazine. Other than that, there's the Farmer list. Sure, it has issues, but Dave has cited it as an authority, so make of that what you will. I don't think the Farmer list is awful or without value, but the problem is that a guy like Sid probably does very well on that metric. IN fact I was toying with a Sid to Edge comp recently to show the danger with relying to heavily on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 I always thought Bret's best positives in terms of drawing were: * vs Yoko * vs Lawler * vs Taker & Diesel And those were relative things rather than just a vacuum of listing what they drew. All that said, did anyone ever say Bret was a massive draw? I mean... other than Bret? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Another thing to remember is that wrestling in general was hot at that point in Europe. WCW was doing terrible numbers stateside at that point, but the Euro tours always did well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Now, my theory has always been that wrestling peaked out here in the UK in 1992. Let's see ... WWF @ Rotterdam, The Netherlands - Ahoy Sportpaleis - April 10, 1992 (about 2,000) The only WWF event held in the Netherlands Owen Hart pinned Skinner The Big Bossman pinned the Berzerker Virgil pinned the Warlord The Undertaker fought Sid Justice to a double count-out Rick Martel pinned Kerry Von Erich (sub. for Roddy Piper) Tatanka pinned Kato WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS defeated the Bushwhackers Christ, the poor Dutch, look at this card. Fucking hell, Money Inc. vs Bushwackers is the main event? ---------------- WWF @ Brussels, Belgium - National Forest Arena - April 11, 1992 (5,500) Owen Hart pinned Skinner The Big Bossman pinned the Berzerker Virgil pinned the Warlord The Undertaker fought Sid Justice to a double count-out Rick Martel pinned Kerry Von Erich Tatanka pinned Kato The Bushwhackers defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification What the hell is this? This is where I was expecting to see Bret gaining traction. ---------------- WWF @ Kiel, Germany - Ostseehalle - April 12, 1992 (7,000; sell out) Owen Hart pinned Skinner The Big Bossman pinned the Berzerker Virgil pinned the Warlord The Undertaker fought Sid Justice to a double count-out Rick Martel pinned Kerry Von Erich Tatanka pinned Kato WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS defeated the Bushwhackers Eh? ------------ WWF @ Sussex, England - Brighton Centre - April 12, 1992 Tito Santana pinned Repo Man WWF IC Champion Bret Hart pinned Shawn Michaels Jim Duggan pinned Dino Bravo The Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys Davey Boy Smith pinned Ric Flair WWF World Champion Randy Savage pinned the Mountie Bret and Bulldog strong, but Savage main eventing. ----------- WWF @ London, England - Wembley Arena - April 13, 1992 (11,000+; sell out) Repo Man pinned Tito Santana The Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys Sgt. Slaughter pinned Col. Mustafa Davey Boy Smith pinned Ric Flair WWF IC Champion Bret Hart fought Shawn Michaels to a double count-out Jim Duggan pinned Dino Bravo WWF World Champion Randy Savage pinned the Mountie with a piledriver and the flying elbowsmash at 6:34 Ditto. ---------- WWF @ London, England - Wembley Arena - April 14, 1992 (11,000+; sell out) Owen Hart pinned Skinner The Big Bossman pinned the Berzerker Bushwhacker Butch pinned WWF Tag Team Champion IRS Virgil pinned the Warlord Rick Martel pinned Kerry Von Erich Tatanka pinned Kato The Undertaker fought Sid Justice to a double count-out Look at the numbers!!! No Bret, no Bulldog. ------------ WWF @ Munich, Germany - Olympiahalle - April 14, 1992 (12,345; sell out) Televised on Tele5 - featured an opening backstage statement by Marcel Obua; included Carsten Schaefer & Uli Fesseler on commentary; featured Schaefer conducting a backstage interview with Jim Duggan about his upcoming match with Col. Mustafa and being in the 16-man battle royal; included a video package with Vince McMahon & Cameo Kneuer in Germany discussing the WBF and bodybuilding, which was interrupted by Lex Luger; featured Schaefer conducting a backstage interview with Davey Boy Smith & the Legion of Doom regarding their upcoming match; included Schaefer conducting a backstage interview with WWF IC Champion Bret Hart about his win earlier in the show, during which Hart said he had his eye on defending against Shawn Michaels later in the tour; after Hart left, Shawn Michaels & Sensational Sherri walked in, with Michaels saying everyone was talking about him and he would make the WWF World Title reign of Randy Savage a short one; featured an ad promoting WWF merchandise in Germany; included Schaefer conducting a backstage interview with Savage about his upcoming title defense against Michaels; featured Schaefer conducting a backstage interview with the LOD about their participation in the upcoming battle royal; moments later, Schaefer interviewed Smith about the battle royal, with him noting his battle royal win at Royal Albert Hall; included ? conducting a backstage interview with Savage about his fitness and nutrition; featured ? conducting a backstage interview with Hart about his fitness and nutrition, then telling the young fans to stay away from drugs; she then asked him what his girlfriend thinks about his many female fans, with Hart saying he wasn't in it for the girls but for the wrestling: Prime Time Wrestling - 6/1/92: WWF IC Champion Bret Hart pinned Dino Bravo (sub. for Shawn Michaels) with the backbreaker and elbow drop from the middle turnbuckle at 14:17 Jim Duggan (sub. for Crush) pinned Col. Mustafa with the runing clothesline at around the 8-minute mark Repo Man pinned Sgt. Slaughter (sub. for Davey Boy Smith) at 14:09 after hitting him in the face with his steel hook, moments after referee Tim White had to forcibly pull Slaughter off Repo as Slaughter had the Cobra Clutch applied in the corner; Repo was heavily cheered during the match Prime Time Wrestling - 6/22/92: Davey Boy Smith & the Legion of Doom defeated the Mountie & the Nasty Boys (w/ Jimmy Hart) when Smith pinned Brian Knobbs with the running powerslam at 12:24 after the LOD ran Knobbs into Smith (WWF Wrestling World Tour) Prime Time Wrestling - 7/6/92: Papa Shango pinned Tito Santana (sub. for Kerry Von Erich) after reversing a crossbody off the top at 9:49 WWF World Champion Randy Savage pinned Shawn Michaels (w/ Sensational Sherri) (sub. for Jake Roberts) with the flying elbow drop at 14:26; after the bout, Michaels and Sherri attacked the champion's injured knee with a chair until referees and officials swarmed the ring; moments later, the injured Savage was carried backstage by officials; as a result of the attack, Savage was unable to compete in the battle royal (World Tour 1992; Best of WWF: World Tour) Davey Boy Smith won a 16-man battle royal by last eliminating the Mountie at 17:07; Marcel Obua addressed the fans in the ring before the entrants; prior to the bout, Shawn Michaels was escorted to the ring by Sensational Sherri and the Nasty Boys & the Mountie had Jimmy Hart at ringside; order of elimination: Michaels by the Legion of Doom via a gorilla press slam onto Sherri at ringside (0:06); the fall knocked Sherri out and Michaels had to carry her backstage over his shoulder; Dino Bravo by Road Warrior Hawk as Bravo attempted to eliminate Santana (3:22); Brian Knobbs by Road Warrior Animal via a running shoulderblock (4:32); Animal by Knobbs & Col. Mustafa (4:52); Papa Shango by Hawk via a backdrop (5:49); Santana by the Mountie via backdrop (7:21); Hart by the Mountie as Bret attempted to eliminate Jerry Saggs (7:57); Road Warrior Hawk accidentally eliminated himself while attempting to clothesline Saggs and Repo (8:53); Col. Mustafa by Smith (9:34); Duggan by the Mountie as Duggan attempted to eliminate Saggs (12:14); Repo by Slaughter (16:21); Slaughter by the Mountie after Repo assisted from the outside (16:35); Saggs by Bulldog via a clothesline after the Mountie accidentally used his cattle prod on Saggs (17:03); Mountie by Smith; after the bout, Smith and Slaughter celebrated in the ring; moments later, Carsten Schaefer conducted a podium interview with Smith about his win; WWF World Champion Randy Savage then came out and hugged Smith, with Smith then saying he won the battle royal at Royal Albert Hall; Savage then added "Oh yeah" before saying he was looking forward to the Frankfurt and Dortmond stops of the tour So this old routine again, but in Germany. I wonder if the German crowd cheered Bulldog. Seems like Savage is positioned as top star though. Great gates on this tour! ------------- WWF @ Frankfurt, Germany - Festhalle - April 15, 1992 (9,000; sell out) Tito Santana pinned Dino Bravo Sgt. Slaughter defeated Col. Mustafa Owen Hart pinned Papa Shango The Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys at the 3-minute mark Skinner pinned Jim Duggan WWF IC Champion Bret Hart pinned Shawn Michaels WWF World Champion Randy Savage pinned the Mountie Bret up to semi-main now. Savage still top. ---------- WWF @ Milan, Italy - FilaForum - April 1992 (10,000+) Sgt. Slaughter defeated Col. Mustafa via submission Jim Duggan pinned Dino Bravo The Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys WWF IC Champion Bret Hart pinned Shawn Michaels WWF World Champion Randy Savage pinned the Mountie (sub. for Jake Roberts) Davey Boy Smith pinned Ric Flair LOOK AT THE CROWDS! I wonder why they put on Bulldog vs. Flair last here. Poor Flair worked Japan like a 2 days after this. -------------- WWF @ Belfast, Ireland - King's Hall - April 16, 1992 Tatanka pinned Kato The Big Bossman pinned the Berzerker Virgil defeated the Warlord The Bushwhackers defeated the Brooklyn Brawler & WWF Tag Team Champion IRS Rick Martel pinned Kerry Von Erich by using the ropes for leverage The Undertaker fought Sid Justice to a double count-out Not a lot to say here. I wonder where Ted's gone. He's been missing for a lot of these now. ---------- WWF @ Glasgow, Scotland - SECC - April 17, 1992 Owen Hart pinned Skinner WWF IC Champion Bret Hart defeated Shawn Michaels via count-out Sgt. Slaughter pinned Col. Mustafa WWF World Champion Randy Savage pinned the Mountie Tito Santana pinned Dino Bravo Papa Shango pinned Jim Duggan The Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys Interesting. Savage has been main event all through this tour, but now LOD show up he gets shunted down a bit. Bret still solid but not exactly the main attraction. --------- WWF @ Birmingham, England - NEC - April 17, 1992 Tatanka pinned Kato Virgil pinned the Warlord Rick Martel pinned Kerry Von Erich The Big Bossman pinned the Berzerker Davey Boy Smith pinned Repo Man The Bushwhackers defeated the Brooklyn Brawler (sub. for Ted Dibiase) & WWF Tag Team Champion IRS The Undertaker fought Sid Justice to a double count-out Yip, just as I thought, Ted is injured. Davey Boy taking a back seat here. The NEC is a big arena by the way. *Nerd fact* it's where they always had the big video games show. I'd look forward to the announcements from it as a kid. Still my main association with it. I never went in person, but it was a dream of mine which I never fulfilled. --------- UK Rampage 92 - Sheffield, England - Arena - April 19, 1992 Danny Boy Collins vs. Alan Kilby Televised live on Sky Movies+ - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary; included Sean Mooney conducting a backstage interview with the Legion of Doom regarding their upcoming match against Col. Mustafa & Dino Bravo; featured Mooney conducting a backstage interview with Sid Justice & Harvey Wippleman regarding Justice's upcoming match against the Undertaker; included Lord Alfred Hayes conducting a backstage interview with Taker & Paul Bearer regarding the upcoming match; featured Mooney conducting a backstage interview with Shawn Michaels & Sensational Sherri regarding Michaels' upcoming match against WWF World Champion Randy Savage; included Mooney conducting a backstage interview with Virgil regarding his upcoming match against the Mountie; featured the announcement of a Summer Slam contest where the winning family of four would be flown to Washington DC for the event, get a free rental car, and seven nights stay at a hotel; included Mooney conducting a backstage interview with Rick Martel regarding his upcoming match with WWF IC Champion Bret Hart; featured Hayes conducting a backstage interview with Jim Duggan regarding his upcoming match against Repo Man; included Mooney conducting a backstage interview with Savage & Miss Elizabeth regarding Savage's win over Michaels, during which he said the Royal Family might be having trouble but the first family of the WWF was OK; Savage then discussed Davey Boy Smith, Ric Flair, and Michaels as future contenders; featured Hayes conducting a backstage interview with Smith regarding his upcoming match in front of a hometown crowd against WWF Tag Team Champion IRS: Prime Time Wrestling - 6/15/92: Tatanka pinned Skinner at 11:53 with a tomahawk chop off the top and the Samoan Drop The Legion of Doom defeated Col. Mustafa & Dino Bravo at 4:29 when Road Warrior Hawk pinned Mustafa with the clothesline off the top after Road Warrior Animal avoided a clothesline from Mustafa Sid Justice (w/ Harvey Wippleman) defeated the Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer) via count-out at 5:15 after throwing Taker into the ringpost as the two fought outside the ring; after the match, Justice assaulted Taker with a steel chair and hit a neckbreaker until Taker sat up and dropped Justice with the tombstone Prime Time Wrestling - 6/15/92: WWF World Champion Randy Savage pinned Shawn Michaels (w/ Sensational Sherri) at 16:58 with a reverse crossbody off the top; Elizabeth escorted Savage to the ring before the match but he sent her backstage mid-way through the contest after Sherri tried to attack her on the floor; Elizabeth returned late in the match to counter Sherri's interference; after the contest, Savage fought off a double team from Michaels and Sherri and cleared them of the ring (Elizabeth's last appearance) (Macho Madness: The Ultimate Randy Savage Collection) Prime Time Wrestling - 6/29/92: The Mountie (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Virgil at 8:57 after using his shock stick while Hart distracted the referee; Virgil wrestled the match wearing a protective face mask due to sustaining a broken nose but the mask was removed late in the match WWF IC Champion Bret Hart pinned Rick Martel with a small package at 13:02 (World Tour 92; Best of WWF: World Tour 93, WWF Wrestling World Tour) Prime Time Wrestling - 7/27/92: Jim Duggan defeated Repo Man via disqualification at 7:14 when Repo hit Duggan with a steel hook; after the match, Repo continued to attack Duggan with the hook and rope until Duggan regained possession of his 2x4 and chased Repo backstage (Best of WWF: World Tour 93) Prime Time Wrestling - 6/8/92: Davey Boy Smith pinned WWF Tag Team Champion IRS (w/ Jimmy Hart) with the running powerslam at 12:48 after knocking Hart off the apron (World Tour 92, "The British Bulldog" Davey Boy Smith Davey Boy firmly in main event here up north. I like that Bret vs. Martel match. ---------- Summer Slam 92 - London, England - Wembley Stadium - August 29, 1992 (78,927; 75,000 paid; sell out; announced at 80,355) Prime Time Wrestling - 9/14/92: Jim Duggan & the Bushwhackers defeated the Mountie & the Nasty Boys (w/ Jimmy Hart) at 12:37 when Duggan pinned the Mountie after the Mountie sustained the Bushwhackers' battering ram, Duggan's running clothesline, and then Jerry Saggs' flying elbowsmash when Duggan moved out of the way as he had the Mountie covered Pay-per-view bouts - 8/31/92 - featured Vince McMahon & Bobby Heenan on commentary; included a surprise appearance by Roddy Piper who played "Scotland, The Brave" on the bagpipes; Nigel McGuinness was in attendance for the show: Prime Time Wrestling - 9/21/92: Papa Shango pinned Tito Santana at 6:12 with the reverse shoulderbreaker after Santana hit the corner face-first (not featured on the U.S. telecast) The Legion of Doom (w/ Paul Ellering & Rocco) defeated Ted Dibiase & IRS (w/ Jimmy Hart) when Road Warrior Animal pinned Dibiase with a powerslam at 12:00 after Dibiase collided with IRS on the apron (The Life & Death of the Road Warriors, Allied Powers) Nailz defeated Virgil via KO with a choke; after the match, Nailz assaulted Virgil with the Big Bossman's nightstick Shawn Michaels (w/ Sensational Sherri) fought Rick Martel to a double count-out when both men began fighting over Sherri on the floor; after the match, Martel dumped a pail of water over Sherri's face to revive her from fainting, making her makeup run as a result; pre-match stipulations made by Sherri stated that neither man could punch the other in the face WWF Tag Team Champions the Natural Disasters defeated the Beverly Brothers (w/ the Genius) Crush defeated Repo Man via submission with the head vice (not featured on the UK telecast) The Ultimate Warrior defeated WWF World Champion Randy Savage via count-out after Savage attempted to hit a double axe handle off the top on Ric Flair at ringside but instead Flair hit the champion's knee with a chair on the way down; Flair and Mr. Perfect continued to attack Savage's knee after the match until Warrior made the save and carried the champion to the back; Flair and Perfect interfered late in the match, attacking both participants at different times, after convincing the two that the other had paid for Mr. Perfect's managerial services for the bout (The Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior FYE version) The Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer) defeated Kamala (w/ Harvey Wippleman & Kimchee) via disqualification at 3:39 when Kimchee interfered as Kamala was set up for the tombstone; prior to the contest, Taker was driven to ringside on the back of a hearse; after the match, Kamala attacked Taker in the corner, hit a splash, hit a splash off the middle turnbuckle, and then a splash off the top; moments later, Taker sat up and stalked Kamala and his handlers all the way backstage (The Best of the WWF: Summer Slam, The Undertaker: His Gravest Matches, Summer Slam: The Greatest Hits) Prime Time Wrestling - 9/28/92: Tatanka pinned the Berzerker (w/ Mr. Fuji) at 5:03 with the Samoan Drop (not featured on the U.S. telecast) (Best of the World Tour 93) Davey Boy Smith pinned WWF IC Champion Bret Hart to win the title by blocking a sunset flip attempt at 25:11; prior to the bout, Smith was escorted to the ring by Lennox Lewis; after the match, Hart initially refused to shake Smith's hand before the two eventually hugged; moments later, Diana Hart Smith celebrated in the ring with Hart and Smith as the show went off the air; voted Pro Wrestling Illustrated's Match of the Year (1992 Year in Review, The Best of the WWF: Summer Slam, The Bret Hart Story: The Best There Is, Was, and Ever Will Be, Best of Confidential Vol. 1, History of the Intercontinental Championship, Hart & Soul: The Hart Family Anthology) I've said it before: this right here is one of Vince McMahon's most staggeringly amazing achievements as a wrestling promoter. And I still don't understand how in the flying fuck he did it, but he did. Remarkably, this is Bret's FIRST main event on British soil, so I'm willing to concede that my hypothesis was plainly wrong, at least based on Bret's prior record as a draw here. HOWEVER, it was the period in between Wrestlemania and this show in which Bret really became big. So it's hard to demonstrate that he was big. Based on the shows though, it's clear that Davey Boy was built up and positioned as a star and that by this point, he must have been a draw. ----------- HOWEVER, what all of this shows more than anything that it simply doesn't matter who was on top could be Sid, could be Savage, could be Piper, could be Taker, could be Davey Boy, could be LOD, could be fucking Money Inc vs. The Bushwackers, the WWF was hot and drew everywhere like crazy. Amazing year for Vince in Europe, and it seems like any card drew. So based on these cards, I'm not seeing an argument for Bret as a big draw here, not yet anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 93 now ... WWF @ Manchester, England - G-Mex Center - February 2, 1993 (5,000) Virgil defeated Repo Man Rick Martel defeated Max Moon The Nasty Boys defeated the Beverly Brothers The Undertaker pinned Papa Shango The Headshrinkers defeated the Bushwhackers Bam Bam Bigelow defeated the Big Bossman WWF World Champion Bret Hart defeated Ric Flair at around the 30-minute mark Shit, Flair really jobbed a lot during his WWF run. Bret is champ and firmly main event here. BUT, we saw last year that shows were drawing just fine with Savage as champ. ----------- WWF @ London, England - Earls Court - February 4, 1993 The Headshrinkers defeated the Bushwhackers Bam Bam Bigelow vs. the Big Bossman WWF World Champion Bret Hart defeated Ric Flair Ditto. -------- WWF @ Beyreuth, Germany - February 5, 1993 (sell out) Max Moon defeated Repo Man Papa Shango defeated Virgil Ric Flair defeated the Big Bossman WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS defeated the Bushwhackers The Nasty Boys defeated the Headshrinkers The Undertaker defeated Bam Bam Bigelow WWF World Champion Bret Hart pinned Rick Martel It's perfectly possible that the Germans' love affair with Bret started here, or it could have started with that Bravo match. But we saw a similar show to this sell out last year with Money Inc. vs. Bushwackers on top. ----------------- WWF @ Mannheim, Germany - February 6, 1993 (sell out) Virgil defeated Repo Man Rick Martel defeated Max Moon The Undertaker defeated Papa Shango The Nasty Boys defeated Ted Dibiase & IRS The Headshrinkers defeated the Bushwhackers The Big Bossman defeated Bam Bam Bigelow WWF World Champion Bret Hart defeated Ric Flair They are hitting Germany stronger and harder this year and with Bret on top. -------------- WWF @ Hamburg, Germany - February 7, 1993 (5,728; sell out) Virgil defeated Repo Man Rick Martel defeated Max Moon The Undertaker defeated Papa Shango The Nasty Boys defeated IRS & Ted Dibiase The Headshrinkers defeated the Bushwhackers Bam Bam Bigelow defeated the Big Bossman WWF World Champion Bret Hart defeated Ric Flair How much of this is Bret, how much is "WWF are in town"? This is the central question. ------------- WWF @ Dortmund, Germany - February 10, 1993 WWF World Champion Bret Hart defeated Ric Flair (Flair's last appearance for 9 years) ----------- WWF @ Bournemouth, England - International Centre - April 9, 1993 Doink the Clown (Keirn) defeated Crush Typhoon defeated Damien Demento Kamala defeated Kimchee The Nasty Boys fought the Headshrinkers to a double disqualification WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels defeated Bob Backlund Yokozuna defeated Jim Duggan Mr. Perfect defeated Lex Luger Pity we don't have figures here. This would have been by the beach. Kamala vs. Kimchee? Imagine how awful that was in 93. ------------------- WWF @ Exeter, England - WestPoint Exhibition Centre - April 10, 1993 Yokozuna defeated Jim Duggan I hope he squashed him like a grape. --------- UK Rampage 93 - Sheffield, England - Arena - April 11, 1993 Televised live on SKY Sports - featured Jim Ross & Bobby Heenan on commentary; included Lord Alfred Hayes conducting a backstage interview with Doink the Clown regarding his match later in the night against Kamala; featured Hayes conducting a backstage interview with Mr. Perfect regarding facing Lex Luger on the European tour; included Hayes conducting a backstage interview with Lex Luger regarding Perfect; featured Hayes conducting a backstage interview with Jim Duggan regarding his match against Luger later in the show; included an in-ring interview with Yokozuna & Mr. Fuji regarding the outcome of WrestleMania IX: Fatu (w/ Afa) pinned Brian Knobs at 9:43 with his feet on the ropes for leverage Doink the Clown pinned Kamala at 5:54 by using the tights for leverage Mr. Perfect pinned Samu (w/ Afa) with the Perfect Plex at 13:34 after Samu missed a headbutt off the top (Global Warfare, Best of the WWF: European Rampage Tour) Bob Backlund pinned Damien Demento with a roll up and bridge at 7:56 Typhoon pinned the Brooklyn Brawler at 9:49 with a powerslam after hitting a splash in the corner Crush defeated WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels via count-out at 8:51 when Michaels left the ring; after the bout, Crush brought Michaels back to the ring, hit a tilt-a-whirl backbreaker, and applied the head vice (Global Warfare, The Best of the Intercontinental Championship, (Live in the UK: November 08) Lex Luger defeated Jim Duggan via disqualification at 6:42 when Mr. Perfect attacked Luger, preventing him from making the cover on Duggan; late in the bout, Yokozuna and Mr. Fuji appeared ringside, with Yoko attacking Duggan outside of the ring moments before the finish; after the bout, Luger and Yoko double teamed Perfect until Duggan cleared the ring with his 2x4 Now, where is Bret here? What's notable about this leg of the tour is that they aren't changing up the booking in any way "just because they are in England". These cards could have happened anywhere. ---------- WWF @ Madrid, Spain - April 12, 1993 Possibly cancelled Ooooh, a bitter blow considering how well they did in 91. ------------ WWF @ Aberdeen, Scotland - Exhibition & Conference Centre - April 14, 1993 Typhoon defeated Damien Demento Kamala defeated Kimchee Yokozuna defeated Jim Duggan Doink the Clown defeated Crush via count-out Mr. Perfect defeated Lex Luger The Nasty Boys fought the Headshrinkers to a double disqualification WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels defeated Bob Backlund Backlund!!! Ha ha! -------------- WWF @ Newcastle, England - Whitley Bay Ice Rink - April 14, 1993 Typhoon pinned Damien Demento with a powerslam Kamala pinned Kimchee with the splash Doink the Clown defeated Crush via count-out Yokozuna pinned Jim Duggan with the Bonzai Drop WWE IC Champion Shawn Michaels pinned Bob Backlund with a sunset flip and grabbing the tights for leverage The Nasty Boys fought the Headshrinks to a double disqualification Mr. Perfect pinned Lex Luger by lifting his shoulder out of a German suplex into a bridge There's something really depressing about this tour. ------------- WWF @ Brussels, Belgium - National Forest Arena - April 14, 1993 Virgil defeated Terry Taylor Doink the Clown defeated Tito Santana Tatanka defeated Papa Shango Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers The Undertaker defeated Giant Gonzalez Bret Hart pinned Bam Bam Bigelow I wish we could see numbers here. I can only imagine they are going down. ------------- WWF @ London, England - Wembley Arena - April 15, 1993 (11,000; sell out) Doink the Clown (Matt Borne) defeated Crush Typhoon defeated Damien Demento Kamala defeated Kimchee The Nasty Boys fought the Headshrinkers to a double count-out WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels pinned Bob Backlund Yokozuna defeated Jim Duggan Mr. Perfect defeated Lex Luger Seemingly not. But this might be the most significant card we've seen: no Davey Boy, no LOD, no Savage, no Bret, no Piper, no Warrior. Narcissist vs. Perfect on top. Result? SELL OUT. This might be the "smoking gun" to prove it wasn't Bret or anyone else drawing these cards but "WWF". -------------- WWF @ London, England - Wembley Arena - April 16, 1993 (11,000; sell out) Virgil defeated Terry Taylor Doink the Clown (Steve Keirn) defeated Tito Santana Tatanka defeated Papa Shango Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers The Undertaker defeated Giant Gonzalez Bret Hart pinned Bam Bam Bigelow See previous comments. Bret can claim credit, and I'm sure he was over, but he wasn't selling those tickets. -------------- WWF @ Glasgow, Scotland - Scottish Exhibition & Conference Centre - April 17, 1993 (5,100) Typhoon defeated Damien Demento Kamala defeated Kimchee Doink the Clown (Borne) defeated Crush via count-out Yokozuna defeated Jim Duggan WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels pinned Bob Backlund The Nasty Boys fought the Headshrinkers to a double disqualification Mr. Perfect defeated Lex Luger More proof of that right here. ---------- WWF @ Nurenberg, Germany - April 18, 1993 (sell out) Typhoon defeated Damien Demento Kamala defeated Kimchee Doink the Clown defeated Crush via count-out Yokozuna defeated Jim Duggan WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels pinned Bob Backlund The Nasty Boys fought the Headshrinkers to a double disqualification Mr. Perfect defeated Lex Luger at 21:41 And here. -------------- WWF @ Glasgow, Scotland - Scottish Exhibition & Conference Centre - April 18, 1993 Virgil defeated Terry Taylor Doink the Clown (Keirn) defeated Tito Santana Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS in a non-title match The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers Tatanka defeated Papa Shango The Undertaker defeated Giant Gonzalez Bret Hart defeated Bam Bam Bigelow ----------------- WWF @ Newcastle, England - Whitley Bay Ice Rink - April 19, 1993 Virgil defeated Terry Taylor Doink the Clown (Keirn) defeated Tito Santana Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers Tatanka defeated Papa Shango The Undertaker defeated Giant Gonzalez via disqualification Bret Hart defeated Bam Bam Bigelow --------- WWF @ Belfast, Northern Ireland - Kings Hall - April 20, 1993 Virgil defeated Terry Taylor Doink the Clown (Keirn) defeated Tito Santana Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers Tatanka defeated Papa Shango The Undertaker defeated Giant Gonzalez via disqualification Bret Hart defeated Bam Bam Bigelow ---------- WWF @ Dublin, Ireland - Point Depot - April 21, 1993 (4,000) Typhoon defeated Damien Demento Kamala defeated Kimchee Doink the Clown (Borne) defeated Crush via count-out Yokozuna defeated Jim Duggan WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels pinned Bob Backlund The Nasty Boys fought the Headshrinkers to a double disqualification Mr. Perfect defeated Lex Luger This looks small for Dublin. ----------- WWF @ Essen, Germany - April 22, 1993 (sell out) Virgil defeated Terry Taylor Doink the Clown (Keirn) defeated Tito Santana Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers Tatanka defeated Papa Shango The Undertaker defeated Yokozuna via disqualification Bret Hart defeated Bam Bam Bigelow WWF @ Frankfurt, Germany - April 23, 1993 (9,000; sell out) Virgil defeated Terry Taylor Doink the Clown (Keirn) defeated Tito Santana Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers Tatanka defeated Papa Shango The Undertaker defeated Yokozuna via disqualification Bret Hart defeated Bam Bam Bigelow Hmmm, perhaps Bret can get some credit here? It seems difficult to give it to him to me. I reckon these shows would have sold out with Yoko vs. Taker. ----------- WWF @ Barcelona, Spain - Palau Sant Jordi - April 24, 1993 Televised on Tele5 - featured Hector Del Mar & Jose Luis Ibanez on commentary; included Miguel Alonso conducting backstage interviews with Tatanka, WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS, and Bam Bam Bigelow before their respective matches Virgil pinned Terry Taylor with a crucifix at 12:30 Tatanka pinned Papa Shango with a roll up at 6:27 Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification at around 10:20 when IRS hit Scott with one of the title belts as Scott had Dibiase covered after hitting the Frankensteiner; prior to the bout, the referee threatened to strip the champions of their title if they refused to give up IRS' steel briefcase and allow it to be taken backstage (Global Warfare, Best of the WWF: European Rampage Tour, Best of the WWF: Battle of the WWF Superstars) Tito Santana pinned Doink the Clown (Keirn) at 2:54 with the flying forearm Bret Hart pinned Bam Bam Bigelow with a victory roll at 11:56 after kicking Bigelow in the face as he charged the corner (Global Warfare, The Bret Hart Story: The Best There Is, Was, and Ever Will Be) Dark match: The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers Dark match: The Undertaker defeated Yokozuna via disqualification Look at El Matador FLY!!! -------- European Rampage - Milan, Italy - Forum Assago - April 25, 1993 (7,500) Scott Steiner pinned WWF Tag Team Champion IRS at 10:03 by reversing a fireman's carry into a roll up (Best of the WWF: Heroes of the Squared Circle, Global Warfare) Virgil defeated Terry Taylor Televised on Tele+2 - featured Dan Peterson on commentary; included Guido Bagatta conducting backstage interviews with WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS, Yokozuna & Mr. Fuji, Tatanka, Bam Bam Bigelow, and Bret Hart before their matches: Doink the Clown (Keirn) pinned Tito Santana at 8:43 after spraying Santana in the eyes with something from his jacket Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification at 15:07 when IRS hit Scott with one of the title belts as Scott had Dibiase covered following the Frankensteiner The Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer) defeated Yokozuna (w/ Mr. Fuji) via disqualification at 5:43 when Yoko hit Taker in the head with the salt bucket; after the bout, the Undertaker avoided the Bonzai Drop and hit the chokeslam on Yoko (Global Warfare) Tatanka pinned Papa Shango with a roll up at 6:03 The Bushwhackers defeated the Beverly Brothers at 14:36 when Butch pinned Blake after Beau accidentally hit his partner with a double axe handle off the top (Best of the WWF: European Rampage Tour) Bret Hart pinned Bam Bam Bigelow with a victory roll out of the corner at 20:38; prior to the bout, Hart was interviewed backstage about his title history, with Hart saying he had done it all in the WWF and didn't like to lose (Bret Hitman Hart: The Dungeon Collection) Ok, so here Bret is on top without the belt. This looks a little more like evidence in his favour, hard not to see this not doing as well without him though. ----------- WWF @ London, England - Earls Court - August 4, 1993 Tito Santana pinned the Predator Brutus Beefcake pinned Terry Taylor Tatanka pinned Bam Bam Bigelow WWF Tag Team Champions Rick & Scott Steiner defeated the Headshrinkers Owen Hart pinned Papa Shango Jim Duggan pinned Bastion Booger Hulk Hogan defeated WWF World Champion Yokozuna via disqualification Now look at this. 1. HOGAN??! In August 93??!!! 2. Where's Bret? They clearly felt he wasn't required to draw a gate. ---------- WWF @ Toulon, France - Zenith Omega - August 5, 1993 Tito Santana vs. the Predator Brutus Beefcake vs. Terry Taylor Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Tatanka Owen Hart vs. Papa Shango Jim Duggan vs. Bastion Booger WWF Tag Team Champions Rick & Scott Steiner vs. the Headshrinkers Hulk Hogan vs. WWF World Champion Yokozuna Still can't believe Hogan is around as late as this. ------------ WWF @ Sheffield, England - Arena - August 6, 1993 (10,000; sell out) Tito Santana defeated the Predator Brutus Beefcake defeated Terry Taylor (Beefcake's last WWF match) Bam Bam Bigelow fought Tatanka to a double count-out Owen Hart defeated Papa Shango Jim Duggan defeated Bastion Booger WWF Tag Team Champions Rick & Scott Steiner defeated the Headshrinkers Hulk Hogan defeated WWF World Champion Yokozuna via disqualification when Mr. Fuji interfered (Hogan's last match with the WWF for almost 9 years) So that's it he's gone. But this is Smoking Gun 2 right here. Another big sell out without Bret on the card. With a Hogan in no man's land on top. Proof if any were still needed that this is "WWF" drawing. ----------- So there it is. Seems pretty conclusive to me. Bret is not the European draw he thinks he is (or, indeed, that I thought he was) . Do I need to look at 94? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Boricua Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 I'd say yes, the fallow period is usually said to be the mid-90's, with 93 as the starting point. Looking at the cards, I'd be careful about calling the next to last match as the semi-main for drawing purposes. It looks like the semi-main would sometimes be placed in the middle of the line-up before intermission or to pace the card. Undertaker vs. Sid is one that strikes me as a semi-main even though it has a middle of the card placement. Even if the WWF brand name was hot, if you keep going back the name alone would not be enough if there isn't anything attached to the brand that the people want. You have to have something the people care about/want or they won't go. At least in theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 I was at this show....the Flair v Von Erich was nice.....everything else was pretty average or worse. WWF @ London, England - Wembley Arena - October 4, 1991 (12,000) Tito Santana defeated the Barbarian Jim Duggan fought Typhoon to a double count-out Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Hercules & Paul Roma when Jannetty pinned Roma The Big Bossman defeated the Mountie Ric Flair pinned Kerry Von Erich with his feet on the ropes Davey Boy Smith (w/ Andre the Giant) pinned Earthquake after hitting him with Andre's crutch The Undertaker defeated Roddy Piper via disqualification when Piper used the urn as a weapon WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated the Nasty Boys when Road Warrior Hawk pinned Sags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 edit: forget it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNLister Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Spring 1992 was when WWF was so hot in Europe they had to send the jet back to the US mid-tour to pick up more merchandise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 See I never really saw any Bulldog love; Warrior sure. Maybe being in Wales there was a little anti-English sentiment creeping in re: Davey Boy? People loved the Bulldog around here. People had the T-shirt, and I used to see a framed poster of him in loads of shops around that time. And the whole world had the British Bulldogs VHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Yeah after going through all the figures and seeing the booking pattern, I believe that. Plus everyone and their grandmother had that VHS. Would you agree with the general conclusion though, that it's not possible to point to a single guy who drew? Seems like any card, any main event was selling out. I couldn't see any downturn after Bulldog left or any particular example of Bret popping a gate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 In 1992, WWF probably would have drawn in the UK with The Boston Blackie on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 How did the Serious Greatest of All Time Candidates thread become the WWF UK draws in 1992 thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 How did the Serious Greatest of All Time Candidates thread become the WWF UK draws in 1992 thread? Bret Hart fetishism always has negative consequences on this board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 It came out of the Bret vs. Choshu as a draw talking point on the premise that the only argument you could make for Bret is based on the idea he was a great international draw. I wanted to put this idea to the test by looking at the numbers. So far, up to 1993, there is a very limited case. Soon I will look at 94-8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 20, 2013 Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 Cool, maybe just do it elsewhere. No reason to drag this down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 20, 2013 Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 How did the Serious Greatest of All Time Candidates thread become the WWF UK draws in 1992 thread? Bret Hart fetishism always has negative consequences on this board I love many a Bret Hart match and quite a few promos in '96-'97. I just don't see why this nonsense needs to drag down an otherwise high level discussion. I'm one who easily ventures off into thinking of someone as a draw, their promo work and other non-work intangibles. But this ain't the place for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Bret = Draw In Europe might be good for being split off into its own thread. It's the type of thing that if folks hash it out would be of useful future reference on it's own rather than being buried in a long thread of other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravJ1979 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I think the only way to approach this list is by realizing there is, and never will be a fool proof, undisputable method of determining an actual G.O.A.T. With that said, all criticisms about discussing such a list such as "Does anyone really care?" are invalid. GOAT discussions and lists created thereof are strictly for entertainment purposes. A dedicated thread void of said criticism consisting of posters who enjoy the debate and comparing/contrasting aspect of something like this could be great. After a while, once enough interest, and people, are invested, a GOAT list 2.0 could possibly be the result. If such a poll were to be attempted again, I think a lot of questions need to be asked and parameters established from those questions to avoid any confusion. The term GOAT itself means "From the first pro wrestler ever to the present." The problem with this right off the bat is nobody knows who the first pro wrestler is. If someone was so bold as to make a statement as to who it was, that would open a whole other can of worms as to when exactly did "pro wrestler" separate from "collegiate, shoot style wrestling." Were "pro" matches’ ever pure shoots or do we establish the beginning of pro wrestling with the first promoted bouts that were obviously and knowingly worked? In short, defining a starting point is as problematic as picking a GOAT. Moreso, if by some miracle a consensus starting point was established, would it even be relevant? That depends on what your definition of GOAT is. This is where parameters play a big part. On what criteria is a GOAT candidate judged? Drawing Power? Purely in-ring ability? Promos/Charisma/Character? Drawing Power I think this should not be considered when discussing a GOAT candidate and is best reserved for a Hall of Fame discussion. Unless the money the wrestler was drawing as benefiting me financially, I have less than zero interest on how much money they brought in. I look to be entertained while watching professional wrestling and I simply am not entertained by how much money the promoter acquired. In-Ring When discussing GOAT candidates, this is largely what most people base their picks on. At the end of the day, it's all about how well a wrestler can perform. Is it a turd or a work of art? What is the ratio of turd/art? Regardless of quality are you entertained? Promos/Charisma/Character This is the traditional entertainment aspect of pro wrestling comes into play. While most hardcore fans can watch a match between to bland competitors who work an amazing match and be fully entertained, casual to moderate fans would probably require a large dose of the theatrics to be fully engaged. So for arguments sake, let us say that in-ring is most important followed by promos/charisma. Both of those require being able to see the wrestler in action, which before the 1950's is largely not possible. Therefore the first 60-70 years of "pro wrestling" cannot be considered and thus GOAT becomes, at best, Greatest Wrestler (post World War II). This is important to establish to eliminate votes for such wrestlers as Frank Gotch, Jim Londos, etc. as were seen in the SmarksChoice poll. It isn't to say that they couldn't possibly be GOAT, but it simply cannot be judged simply by legend. Another question to ask is if footage does exist of a wrestler, how much is needed to fairly critique his/her work for candidacy to the GOAT list? This is a tricky one as it drastically hurts consideration for wrestlers whose prime was in the 1950's, 60's, and maybe even the early 70's. So in discussing a GOAT candidate, if a poll is ever taken a few questions need to be answered with a consensus answer. Define the "AT" in "GOAT". Personally I would define it as 1970-present. Even though footage is hit and miss in the 70's, it does exist enough to help in discussion. How much footage of a wrestler, in terms of hours or matches should a wrestler have available to accurately judge their overall career? In looking over the SmarksChoice list, there were 137 wrestlers who received a Highest Ballot position of 25 or higher. I note 25 as I think Top 100 is excessive as can a #100 positioned wrestler ever have a legitimate case made of being a GOAT? There were 64 wrestlers who received a highest ballot position of 10 or higher with 16 of those voted as #1. My Question is this: Are there any on this list that should be removed from a Top 25 consideration for GOAT and are any names missing: JOSHI Akira Hokuto Jaguar Yokota Aja Kong Manami Toyota Chigusa Nagayo Devil Masami Mariko Yoshida Bull Nakano Mayumi Ozaki Kyoko Inoue US BASED Eddie Guerrero Ric Flair Bret Hart Jerry Lawler Ricky Steamboat Steve Austin Dusty Rhodes Gorgeous George Jim Londos Rock Mick Foley Randy Savage Shawn Michaels JAPAN BASED Jumbo Tsuruta Toshiaki Kawada Jushin Liger Kenta Kobashi Mitsuharu Misawa Nobuhiko Takada Hayabusa Yoshiaki Fujiwara Kintaro Kanemura Rikidozan Genichiro Tenryu Antonio Inoki Shinya Hashimoto Tatsumi Fujinami Kazuo Yamazaki Kiyoshi Tamura MEXICO BASED Negro Casas El Dandy El Hijo del Santo Blue Panther MS1 Satanico Pirata Morgan OTHER (Significant Work in More than One Country) Dynamite Kid Harley Race Ted Dibiase Fit Finlay Chris Benoit Terry Funk Volk Han Stan Hansen The Destroyer Terry Gordy Rey Mysterio Jr Jack Brisco Lou Thesz Dick Murdoch Dory Funk Jr. Steve Wright Vader Masato Tanaka Without even thinking about it, I see names I would immediately eliminate: Masato Tanaka, Hayabsua, Gorgeous George, and Jim Londos. There are more I would take out if I put some thought into it. ================================================== P.S. - Here is a list I dug up compiled by EvilClown in 1999 for comparison to the SmarksChoice Poll. Wrestlers are ranked after careful consideration of three factors: 1. In-Ring Work 2. Drawing power 3. Intangibles 1. Frank Gotch 2. Antonio Inoki 3. Ed “Strangler” Lewis 4. Rikidozan 5. Ric Flair 6. Lou Thesz 7. Bruno Sammartino 8. El Santo 9. Hulk Hogan 10. Andre the Giant 11. Shohei Baba 12. George Hackenschmidt 13. Stan Hansen 14. Dory Funk Jr. 15. Joe Stecher 16. Jumbo Tsuruta 17. Jim Londos 18. Mitsaharu Misawa 19. Riki Choshu 20. El Canek 21. Randy Savage 22. Bruiser Brody 23. Atsuhito Onita 24. Gorgeous George 25. Nobuhiko Takada 26. Terry Funk 27. The Shiek 28. Tatsumi Fujinami 29. Akira Maeda 30. Shinya Hashimoto 31. Vader 32. Jack Brisco 33. Roddy Piper 34. Harley Race 35. Vern Gagne 36. Antonino Rocca 37. Destroyer 38. Bronko Nagurski 39. Gory Guerrero 40. Genchiro Tenryu 41. Masahiko Kimura 42. Buddy Rogers 43. Edouard Carpentier 44-45. Crusher + Dick the Bruiser 46. Jushin Liger 47. Steve Austin 48. Shawn Micheals 49. Jerry Lawler 50. Mil Mascaras 51. Bob Backlund 52. Toshiaki Kawada 53. Stanislaus Zbysko 54. Dusty Rhodes 55. Billy Watson 56. Gene Kiniski 57. Cactus Jack 58. Great Muta 59. Bret Hart 60. Ricky Steamboat 61. El Hijo del Santo 62. Freddy Blassie 63. Danny Hodge 64. Jesse Ventura 65. Michiaki Yoshimura 66. Bobo Brazil 67. Ray Stevens 68-69. RW Hawk+RW Animal 70. Perro Aguayo 71. Ed Don George 72. Abdullah the Butcher 73. Seiji Sakaguchi 74. El Solitario 75. Kenta Kobashi 76. Fritz Von Erich 77. Nick Bockwinkel 78. Pedro Morales 79. Billy Graham 80. Killer Kowlaski 81. Karl Gotch 82. Mr. Wrestling II 83. Shozo Kobayashi 84. Rusher Kimura 85. Tiger Mask 86. El Rayo de Jalisco 87. Toyonorabi 88-89. Ben + Mike Sharpe 90. Ultimo Dragon 91. Jackie Fargo 92. Ray Mendoza 93. Dynamite Kid 94. Hiro Hase 95. Konnan 96. Arn Anderson 97. Chris Benoit 98. Great Sasuke 99. Wahoo McDaniel 100. Cien Caras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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